Manta

Gogo theoryfighter. If lambda's j.DD does cancel (not jump cancel) straight into j.2DD (which knocks them up a bit) then surely we can do: ....j.DD > j.2DD > 214D~C, j.2DD > jc > j.DD > j.2DD > 214D

If Lambda's j.DD knocks them downwards, can't you just cancel into j.2DD and hit them with that?

I'd like to point out that I was making shit up for the purposes of lulz only.

Yeah, I did that was the earlier post, something about hazama sticking snakes into rachel's dahlia or something. Probably inaccurate but very japanese.

Tager's changes seem to suggest being able to get 4800 damage from a b buster or something. 3C got quicker maybe? (that would help the case for the 2C, 3C, gatling).

2C > 3C gatling? Why? We already had 2C > 4D blockstring which was all we needed. No followup from tager's normal throw? What is this nonsense!? (Time to limber up that butter churning hand)

Of course they do. 236236D is designed as a combo ender. No followups, not even a bluebeat. Therefore the only reason the devs would've put a P2 value in for the hits is if it scaled the hits themselves. I find it particularly lolworthy that you need 2 charges just to match the damage of the C version. With less than that you actually do get less damage (but with 4 frames less startup and reversal invulnerability however, so it's good for that). 236236D does have the range to hit Tager after a Gadget finger, but it's still a projectile. Oh hum.

I know that, but if you have no charges then you get precisely sod all damage from it. I was trying to compare like damage with tager and that does require 5 charges to just come close.

So basically less damage than Tager does with 360B. You're paying 50 heat and 5 charges to get a few invulnerable frames on a blockable move to do less damage than tager can shit out at any point. The only saving Grace being that you can hitconfirm something into it. At close range I really think that there isn't anything Tsubaki can do that Tager can't do better, apart from having a proper reversal, but then Tager has sledge so meh. I find that I can actually Zone Tsubaki away from me with pokes and shit, feels weird.

You can also exploit a bit of the AI's coding that makes them do reversal moves when you attack. For some reason, 421B (Voltic Charge) is considered a move that the AI is programmed to hit you out of, so every time you do it, they'll do inferno divider, jayakou houtenjin, spark bolt, etc... despite the fact that all of these moves will land harmlessly on your guard point and will give you a free reversal. Heck, they even try to do these moves when you're on the other side of the screen which can be useful if you want to get the AI to burn 50 meter harmlessly. For some reason, Spark bolt isn't conisdered to be a move they'll try to counter (Or even block 70% of the time), so it's pretty much a free hit into a combo. Against Hazama, if he does his 214D stance as okizime (as he likes to do), don't do anything except voltic charge, since the AI also has bullshitty one frame reaction times with the before mentioned reversals. The AI is also a huge sucker for ... AC (step) 6C -> 5D 623[C] (Tech trap). Hakumen in particular. Gadget finger into 360B Tends not to work well on Hazama (He likes to backdash it). However, a held 720C works wonders.

But Mu has a gaping character flaw of having trouble with people in her face (Not quite as bad as lambda perhaps, but still bad). Whilst the top tier lot do have some exploitable flaws, they aren't all in one place or as extreme as some of the people lower down the list. E.g. I'm playing against Tager, I'll zone him and make him take risks to try and get close. I'm playing against Carl, I'll try to separate Carl and Nirvana. I'm playing against Litchi.... I'll try to separate that staff from her, despite the fact she has to willingly let go of it. Hrm

Litchi is easy to explain. Big damage combos, fast and long ranged pokes that still lead to good damage. The ability to attack with two things at a time in a way second only to Carl. She has no flaws that can be exploited without incompetence on the Litchi player. Bang. Okay, he doesn't have Litchi's pokes, but he can do 3k of a 5A, which is abusrd. Whilst he doesn't have the supreme theoretical max damage of arakune and hakumen's 10k+ combos, virtually everything he hits with can be made into a 3k+ combo. Add onto that a hugely damaging distortion, FRKZ mode which gives mobility that makes Tao look like Tager and gives combos that make Hakumen look like Rachel. Finally add to that a near relentless pressure game and you have a top tier character right there. His drives can also give some headaches too. Hazama is harder to explain, but ultimately, this guy just has options, in just about every situation he has a couple of good things to do. His drives gives everyone a headache as it makes predicting his movements so hard (will he move? will he cancel? will he stop midair? etc etc). Oh and Jayakou Houtenjin is a big contender for the best distortion ever coupled with the fact that if Hazama gained meter any faster it'd leak out of his ears. You did mention "besides damage", but damage is so very important. If Rachel could get Bang and litchi BnB damage off of her stuff, I could easily see her being high tier, but as it stands, people just take silly risks when playing Rachel because they can afford to just not care about the damage they take if they guess wrong.

irrc that combo does not work on Carl and Arakune. For them you have to use the "Egadget" manoeuvre. That is, after the collider, jump forward and immediately do j.C (whiffing completely) and then wait until you're just about to touch the floor and do j.2C (which should hit pretty instantly) and then do 22D asap after that.

I meant to say that it's invulnerable from frame 1 until the first frame of extreme pain. Also, I think tha t236236D comb scales with its own hits, so you won't get more damage than a 720 even if you do have full charge.

720 is a true reversal move, it needs only one frame to activate and then it's invulnerable until just after its first active frame. Your blockstrings need to be watertight, and that's not even considering IBing. For reference 360A is 3-11 invulnerable and 360B has no invulnerability (but is normal throw speed). Tsubaki's 236236D is actually a 1st-7th frame invulnerable move.

Funny how opinion has changed about Mu, There was a time when us Tager players thought she was free because her projectiles were so telegraphed and slow to come out. My how gameplay experience changes things. Are the Mu matchups against Carl and Arakune in her favour for much the same reasons as Lambda?

I'm somewhat surprised that no-one has mentioned the most important lesson in execution. Everyone does this, but we've all done it so much that it can be hard to remember we're doing it. That lesson is: "When performing a move in a combo or blockstring you must already be performing the stick motion for the next move in the sequence so that you need only press the button for the next move after the first connects". Quite verbose for something so simple. Allow me to give you an example, let's take that 5B 5C 214A 214D combo people keep mentioning. Now let me add in where the moves actually strike your opponent: 5B (B strikes) 5C 214 (C strikes) A (214A Strikes) 214 D (214D Strikes) Notice how you do the first 214 inbetween where the 5C attack is pressed and where it strikes. Given the slow timing for the 214D however, you do that after you see the punch connect, makes for easy hit confirmation.

Which page is the chart even on?

Well, at least Bang doesn't get buffed by the better guard crushes, since if you get guard crushed by him then you should take the game back to the shop you got it from. So that's a nerf to him by default. Nivana can shatter a few primers and Tager can now use command throws on guard crushes, which is awesome. Even a free B buster seems like a good use of the crush. I still don't expect we'll see any that don't involve a green burst beforehand however.

Now that Guard Crushing has some serious implications (Like being dragged across the whole screen with GETB...lol), do any of the cast actually have any safe guard breakers actually worth using yet? Only person I can think of offhand who can safely and usefully break primers is Lambda.

It won't, holding 360A will prevent it from going active and triggering the astral, 720 is always active for the hold time and will attempt to grab whether you like it or not.

There are a few that do end in air techs that can be advantageous. Forcing a bounce tech or neutral in the corner is often better than letting them have the option of rolling past you. However, for the techable AC finish, Not sure there's too much you can do with that unless they've been thrown in the corner.

Does 3C, 5C, 6A, 623C 2D or 3C, 5B 623C 2D not work?

All I can really say about that is read his sideswaps and AC it. Gonna need some serious Yomi though, especially online.

In this particular matchup, a lot of your charge will go on making your approaches safer rather than maximising damage. Don't expect any real damage to come from a mugen combo since you're unlikely to have 5 bar's worth to play with.