chzchan

Really? Well that's twice now. I should really test things before I post, especially when talking about information concerning characters I don't main. Is it only possible if the opponent IBs the 2nd hit?

Did you see Jin teleport into Kagura's arms after he did 6D~C > 2D~B > 5D~B at around 2:45 of the first video and again at 2:50? Oh boy my Kagura buddy is going to be happy about this. And it was a purple grab too so that means that the stance followup does not need to be delayed like it does right now. Damn. I wonder what might be causing this. There must have been a lot of subtle changes to Kagura's stuff that we don't know about. His 3C looks so damn fast. There is no way they didn't increase the range of his 5D~B. He grabbed the Jin from 3/4 character length away after landing a 5B. Now that's scary. No like that's horrifying.

I really don't want to write up an essay here, so just head over here because I already wrote one in the Tsubaki forums. Don't want this thread to become Tsubaki Complaints General again. The main concern I was trying to address with this suggestion, regardless of how actually good of an idea it is, was the fact that nobody gives a shit about your install gauge when fighting you. Like with Relius, Valkenhayn, and Rachel you watch their bar like your life depends on it or you lose. I wanted it to be at least sort of similar with Tsubaki.

See, even if a few of these changes would make her a bit more unique as a character with more emphasis on her drive mechanic, they are too all over the place. You can't just go, "she sucks really really bad so let's just give her everything." This brings me back to the Bullet example. They did something so simple and so easy but it did so much for her as a character. For the small amount of effort put into the change, it just seems amazing how well it worked. Bullet still has core problems that need addressing and a ton of them at that, but the change they did to her drive made her stronger as a character in her own way according to her drive's layout. Tsubaki's problems may be all over the place as well, but I feel that doing a little bit of this here and a little bit of that there with an instant overhead over here sounds a bit too far fetched and messy. All I really want is something simple and well calculated to be done to her drive that does way more than you would think it would do at first glance. That is asking for a bit too much, I guess. Well, if they can do it with one character why can't they do it with another? It makes me wonder how exactly characters are managed, created, and tested on site. Do they have teams for each character? Are singular characters left in the hands if one person? I think I need to watch the extra subbed video that came with the limited edition box again.

Hmm, I guess I am in the wrong when talking about some objective nature then. Maybe I should be referring to how the character is generally played because, even though people play characters in different ways, there will always be a more efficient way in doing things that someone's gameplan will trend towards unless that person tries as hard as they can to keep themselves from playing like that. There's this one japanese Hakumen I remember seeing play full on rushdown by using 214A and 623A nonstop and using OD out of hits that were blocked to apply pressure and stuff. It was scary but surprisingly effective.

I'm not sure if it was completely intended (as in if they wanted to make him the way he is in CP), but OD did have a huge role in making him a character that shits out damage when he gets in a good hit with resources. He was able to do the same thing to a lesser extent with Mugen before, right? Though that wasn't his purpose/nature from your perspective, it was more of a something on the side that you could do but did not rely on.

I am pretty sure she can still maintain oki by ending combos with 623B as seen here, so I don't think that the new properties of her drive make it worse in any way combo-wise because she will never be ending a combo with a D move like she does currently. Even with SMP, 623B makes it so that the opponent cannot tech until they touch the ground. I'd say that the fact that she doesn't have to give up as much damage in a combo in order to end a combo while still having heat levels (because she is able to spend and gain more heat levels in a combo without spending meter) thanks to being able to cancel D moves is at least a subtle improvement to her neutral. I don't think there are really any downsides to the changes concerning her drive. I could be really wrong, though. Please correct me if you can because I don't main her.

Yeah I'm fine with that. Well, it isn't just "Why my character isn't good, and why Team Blue suck at balance". I wanted to talk about how a few of changes being made aren't reflecting the supposed nature of the character. I used Tsubaki, an example that I can give solid information about without talking out of my ass, who is receiving the negative end of changes concerning nature. I also gave Bullet, an example where I am using information from my buddies that play Bullet as well as discussions that I had at my local FGC (because Bullet's changes were so huge that she was the biggest topic of conversation), who is receiving the positive end of changes concerning nature. So, though this doesn't have much to do with characters being good, some characters are getting some changes that align with their nature while some are not, and Team Blue did a great job with their adjustments efficiency-wise for some characters and not too great with others. The two characters that I used in the example just happen to be not that good, but the discussion I was bringing up had nothing to do with them not being good. More about the definition of characters by what they are able to do more than anything else. If I knew more about Hakumen I could have used him as an example because of his changes across versions/iterations, though I don't think I have enough experience to state what his nature is. Also nature of characters is really really subjective. Another thing that could be discussed.

I'm uninformed. What exactly did they do to Noel?

It really is lazy on their part. Take how they buffed Bullet for example. Making her Drive cancellable into her special grabs opened up a ton of new routes to her because of the nature of her drive and drive resources. It both buffed her damage and made it easier for her to maintain momentum as well as get more creative with resource management in combos. It was such a simple change too. Goddamn genius. Instead of going in the direction of a more unique character defined by their drive like they did with Bullet, they really just made Tsubaki less defined by her "unique" mechanic and pretty much more like Ragna. They just went here ya go you finally get to deal the same damage as everyone else and your drive resource won't really add that much more damage so you can just forget about it.

When Hazama's chain hit Kagura during Wyvern Kagura did not flash red nor did he lose health. The blue guard effect animation played instead. Wyvern now has projectile guard point instead of projectile super armor.

Well ODR will really just make all of us practice not hitting buttons and whiffing followups. It'll be a tough road.

Good luck being able to do 623C > j.236A(delay whiff) > 5B in 1.1. That is impossible. I'm not even skilled enough to land 5C 100% of the time. I have been trying to land the j.C after the j.C > j.D > j.B for the last 5 hours and I haven't landed it once. Maybe I should just disable tech to test it out. I'm able to do 5CC > 623C > j.236A(delay whiff) > 5C > 2C > j.7C > j.236A but that is pretty high off the ground.

Damn. Sometimes I completely forget about that, especially when my back is to the corner. It'll turn into a blue combo right? With tech in mind right now, generally, what tech do you exercise the most? Just generally. Or do you change everything on the fly or depending on the matchup. Actually hell, I don't know why you wouldn't. I guess this isn't too Tsubaki specific, but more of a you as a player thing. Are there any special situations where using a certain type of tech or defensive option would help out in a way that most people don't realize?

Relius has knocked you down in the corner and has begun the unblockable setup. From the few rounds that you have fought him you know that he either goes for the setup with a j.B after the Ignis yoyo or does a double jump to make your DP whiff. What do you do?

That's really funny because the exact opposite is happening to Tsubaki. Her changes made her less reliant on her Drive resources in order to have a chance during a round, at least for damage. I guess her Drive isn't really considered "meaningful" though.

The 623D>j.214A whiff into 236D combo here is pretty great. 4.6k off of 5B starter midscreen. Damn, now I finally get to use this move outside of Mugen. Also in the video it shows that 22D out of 236B>214B still allows 6C to link in the corner. I guess that's because it is fully charged. 5CC>22D>5C>2C>214D>jcc>CT>6CC>214B>j.C>j.CC>j.214A is 4.7k in the corner for 2 dongs and 25 heat. That's amazing. But notice how it isn't that much more than what can be done midscreen. Damage difference when comparing screen placement is very minimal. Grab>22[D]>22>5C in the corner made me laugh. So we can do max charge 22D in the corner now out of a grab instead of having to use CT. That's new. 236C being the midscreen gimmick ender for combos where the opponent is not standing has me excited. Also corner gimmicks as well. Man this is exciting.

Looks fun. So you need to get in all of those moves to move you as far back as possible. I'll see if I can pull it off right now.

Maybe they decreased 3C recovery or increased 5B startup. Holy shit would I love it if 5B had faster startup. Definitely not true though. I am pretty sure Valk just delayed his retaliation a bit too long which is what allowed 5B to hit. I get what you're saying about combo extension, though. See, the maximum damage chargeless combos require you to be pretty close so 623C does not whiff or cause the combo to drop. Adding in charges, at least midscreen, will get you pretty much the same damage, but the spacing you started the combo with will not matter as much or at all.

Uncharged 22D in the corner has much much less untech time. You have to followup with 5C in the corner so big damage out of 5CC/5B>22D in the corner is gone. 2A is what you will be using to follow up j.214D. It can be followed up midscreen this way according to what I have been reading on twitter, but it did lose its damaging corner route with 6C which is really sad. No more 623C>j.214D>6C route in the corner. It truly truly seems like they are killing her additional damage per charge when used in a combo. I guess she will be doing essentially the same damage, though, because of the changes they did to all her stuff that doesn't require charge in order to give her the amazing chargeless damage I have been seeing in videos. 421D definitely looks interesting. I wish I had the ability to work with it right now to figure things out about it. The reason why 3C seemed positive is because it hit with the latter active frames, so it recovered faster. It is -12 on block, but it has 10 active frames. If you hit with the active frames near the very very end you can get it to be near the same frame advantage of your average charge cancel.

It makes complete sense. I'll take all this to heart. As a Tsubaki player I think that learning the player as quickly as possible is a skill that is almost required to play her and have a chance. I need to be able to form a profile of my opponent faster than they can form one of me and fast enough to minimize the amount of health and screen placement I have to risk or even give up in order to form the profile. Then I need to be able to efficiently take advantage of the profile information with the resources and positioning I may have once I complete the profile. This is actually why I play like a retard sometimes and do a bunch of really really stupid shenanigans that no Tsubaki or player would ever do. I want to make it harder for my opponent to form their own profile of me. This doesn't end up helping me as much as I would like it to right now, though. I am still trying to figure out more really stupid things to do that don't end up screwing me over. There's a huge problem with this, though. If you aren't able to trust your opponent, all of this gets thrown out the window.

Do you have a set game plan that you go for generally and then deviate depending on certain responses from your opponent or the degree of trust you have in your opponent after a few trials? For example, I always go for the 236B > Etc. reset at the beginning of the round on the first standing confirm I get and then start the conditioning from there depending on the response from the other player. If they block high I go for a 2B or 5A>2B if I think they may mash. If they block low afterwards without mashing I go for a command grab or kara grab. If they mash, I know to use 22B frame trap next time or 623C. If they jump after they notice I end the combo early, I stop going for this reset completely and just continue the combo. I do some rapid shenanigans or other shenanigans as well if I really really trust my opponent. Leaving the opponent in a standing state is something I always aim for because maintaining pressure on people after knockdown outside of the corner is impossible. I try to get in as many resets as possible before my opponent knows what hit them. Things like this. They don't necessarily have to be oriented around resets. What are your general conditioning plans?

From all of this as well as my own experience, Tsubaki relies a lot on the opponent trying to hit buttons (and not DP or use counters) while under pressure in order to get her game to work. You need your opponent to attack you or at least believe that their defensive options are more limited than they actually are for Tsubaki to even work as a character. What if instead of hitting buttons, people jump? I know I ask this a lot and I will continue to because it is incredibly frustrating to deal with. It makes hard matchups immensely more difficult. It completely blows up a lot of your offensive options unless you hard call stuff, especially if they are using barrier all the time. For example, I know this Bang player I fight pretty often and if I ever charge cancel he super jumps, back dashes, and most likely throws a poison nail. What the hell do you do if they wait for the visual cues in order to excercise this simple and effective defensive option against Tsubaki?

Yeah, with the loss of slide ender, there isn't a really solid way of staying on people, even in the corner. Not like she didn't have a hard time sticking to people since forever, though. We may end up having to use charge to end combos now. I just hope we'll have enough to last.

Oh, alright. Sorry about that. They are pretty hard to do every single time because you need pretty precise timing, but at least it is something. I swear j.214X looks like it does knock down for a slight bit longer now, though. I'll have to ask.