chzchan

Whoa whoa whoa. Was this always possible? 2D > 2P link?

I actually ended up asking SKD on twitter though the question was originally for Kagura it should apply to every character. You are able to move yourself forward slightly with a short dash making it so that his j.C will not autocorrect even though you will cross under him and then punish that way. Makes sense.

Anyone know how to punish Ragna doing a short dash into a super jump? Haven't figured out exactly what to do in neutral when it happens unless he actually doesn't use his air option and drops down to j.C in which I can attempt to anti-air. This is something that I try to bring about by throwing a projectile, but it doesn't feel like I can do much about it the Ragna player doing this in response to my projectile. If he does air gauntlet hades or air blood scythe what do you do in response? If he is spaced to cross you up with j.B, what do you do?

Ky having air Stun Edge makes it harder than a good handful of other characters, but yeah every character can just airdash in and smack Sin before he can eat. I was just trying to figure out what to do depending on what option the Ky player decides to take so I can try to apply it.

Oh a question if you can answer it: Let's say you get a successful burst out of one f Ky's combos and you are low on food. What should you do? Ky is able to forward air tech and air dash forward or do air Stun Edge if he has no meter and a few other things if he does have meter. I usually end up eating at j.S even if I don't try to eat. What I have tried doing is 214S/236H YRC and then air grab so I can eat but that is pretty inconsistent. I don't bother trying to 6P him because he can air dah into air stun edge though I should try doing as you said and 236K YRCing into 2H to punish. Here's another bonus one. Which enders should I go for primarily in this matchup at different food level?

I thought he was playing Leo.

Thanks for responding to each individual point. I feel slightly more comfortable now that I have some of the answers, but I still feel like I will struggle. Even if the matchup is supposedly in Sin's favor probably just due to his damage I don't think it will really feel like it for me personally until I have had more experience with the matchup. I'm only trying pretty basic tactics when looking at what to do and when and I easily crumble in the matchup when I get low on food. I will try my hardest to apply what I have learned here. The "well-rounded" character matchup has always given me trouble in every game since you by default have to work harder regardless of what your character excels in unless you're playing the same character, but I'll see what I can do about this.

Having trouble anti-airing Ky since he can just air Stun Edge to bait and YRC to turn it into a full punish. His AA is also godly. Trying to bait his anti-air is painful because he can dash 6P to mess up spacing and catch hops in pressure regardless of their length. Trying to cross him up to mess with this gets you air grabbed for free. Trying to eat his AA attempt with j.214S will get you 2H'd. Hell, he can even 6P through f.S and Beak Driver like Slayer can. Stun Dipper low profiles Beak Driver and f.S and beats out Elk Hunt and 2S because of its amazing hitbox structure. Even if you Just Block it from the places where Ky players would use it in their blockstrings or in neutral, you will not be able to hit with normals other than 2S and f.S and in both cases you will be too far away to combo into a knockdown with consistency as Elk hunt and 2D will not connect. Stun Dipper can also be used to low profile Voltic Dein so it should never under any circumstances be used in neutral or during grounded pressure for reasons like eating instead of using an RC. Full screen Bull Bash can be punished by Ky running up and DPing or just simply using Stun Edge, so it cannot be used at all in neutral. Air grabbing Ky is a pain since his air grab range is so enourmous. You will find yourself getting air grabbed easily when the other player knows you are trying to anti-air with an air grab or just attempt an air-grab in general. Stun Edge shuts down a lot of Sin's options even though he can destroy the projectile with Beak Driver or slide under it with Elk Hunt and if the Ky has 25 meter, both of those options will get you killed since he can punish the recovery of both during the slowdown of YRC with his amazing normals. Eating and YRCing in neutral even at full screen will get you a Stun Edge to the face before you can block if they react to the eating cue accordingly. The only time you can poke him out of his pressure is the small gap between his normals and 6H but trying to poke there is so easily punished and very very easy to mess up which will make you eat a huge combo. You can use FD to try and get him to whiff normals or screw up spacing but you will still probably end up continuing to block. No idea how to play neutral against Ky so I usually end up blocking until I find an opening, though even Just Blocking his j.S doesn't allow me to grab him when he touches the ground even if he has air momentum so I usually resort to looking for where to Blitz Shield since using the DP is too easy to whiff due to Ky normals. If I ever do find an opening, I just deal my damage and then try to sit on the health lead without getting opened up since going back in against him doesn't seem worth it. Also punishing Ky's Ride the Lightning is actually pretty difficult. I know you can't FD or else you will be pushed too far, but I run into the same situation as Stun Dipper. Properly spaced Greed Sever also has the same problem since hitting in the latter active frames will leave him both less negative on block and out of the range where f.S and 2S can combo into a knockdown without meter. Ky can eat Elk Hunt with Split Ciel on reaction since it has low invuln starting from frame 5. Very very annoying. Especially annoying after they YRC Stun Edge since it will eat you alive unless you are also willing to spend 25 meter to simply go back to blocking. Absolute worst part is when you try to space yourself with normals to make the opponent block the latter frames of Elk Hunt to make it more positive and because the gap is larger between the blockstun of whatever normal/special you used and the frames when Elk Hunt actually hits, they can use Split Ciel as a sort of 5f jab out of any use of 236K from a distance. They can get you into this same situation by using FD themselves to push you so that it takes a longer time for the slide to hit. Frustrating as hell. Without having to just block Elk Hunt, he can always Punch or Kick out and beat out all of Sin's normals due to all of them having 5 frame startup and having ridiculously good hitbox structure. Though all that needs to be done is condition them to mash so you can frame trap them into a delayed Beak Driver, it is still incredibly annoying that by default they can get out of Sin's awful pressure early in the conditioning game. I am just at a loss here. This matchup seems pretty impossible unless the opponent both respects you from the beginning and makes a ton of mistakes.

Seems like Konan is pretty popular. Guess there is a voting system.

Slayer can super jump and j.2K over everything and punish you in the recovery of both 236H and 214S. If he sees 214S in neutral, he can force clash with his 5P or 2S and get out or free without having to commit to a Blitz Shield and spend 25 meter. His neutral is bad but that doesn't mean he isn't maneuverable. It is hard for him to approach from the ground, but when he is in the air, he can use his normals to position himself above you and blow you up for whiffing anything even if you are also in the air because you can't physically get higher than him with your mobility tools.

What do you do about his backdash cancel on his wakeup and during pressure? What do you do to bait and punish his various options. Backdash > Jump is very difficult for me to deal with in every situation.

But the entire point of this was to find out what to do when I have no food. There are no options that the opponent needs to respect during Sin's pressure and backing off when you have no food leads to death unless you have meter. That's also a huge problem I am having. Getting respect. If the opponent disrespects you in the right ways like jumping at the right times in your pressure so that your confirms don't get a combo or just general vertical navigation in neutral, Sin just doesn't work that well. It always feels like you need to rely on your opponent to not be thinking in order for anything to work because if they get past the fear of his damage, Sin really isn't that scary and can be easily bullied during the stages where you are supposed to be conditioning your opponent. Then there's the opponents who cannot be conditioned or are always random that are a nightmare to fight.

Big problem with expecting Slayer's 2K to whiff or any character's normals to whiff before hitting a button is that is 100% dependent on the distance you were from the opponent beforehand. Just like with 236K, there isn't a constant distance that you are pushed back, but your non-S normals will still whiff on crouchers. If you are at +2 and you use 2S, Slayer's 2K will still hit your 2S out of startup without needing to low profile it like it does with f.S. Just look at the data. Even if it is perfectly timed after making them block 6H or 236K (in early active frames) the opponent has a 7 frame window to trade with the 9f startup moves f.S and 2S and Slayer's 2K has 6 frame startup. It happens all the damn time. I probably should just record some matches and upload them.

Slayer's 2K destroys Sin even when he doesn't low profile normals with it. Sol's f.S and 2D trade and sometimes beat my buttons out if I don't hit my normal as quickly as possible. Same with Ky's 2D. Venom's 2S and 2D also blow things up. These are all without IB.

I wish 6H wasn't so godawful for pressure despite it being +2 on block. Like +2 would be awesome if Sin had at least one fast normal that hit crouching and also had decent range. If the opponent blocks 6H and I don't have food, I always get smacked out of f.S/2S since they are both 9f startup and they don't even need to Just Block. Then 6H knocks you just far away enough for both your punches and kicks to whiff. If I have food I can scare them into not mashing because there is a gap between 6H and both 236H/236K that will get me a delicious CH, but if I have no food there is absolutely nothing to fear.

One of the problems is that I'm not doing big hungy combos. I usually end up at around 6-7 kcal before I get a confirm be it in neutral or actually opening someone up since I tend to use food in neutral a lot. Just doing 236K > 236H so I can eat afterward puts me at around 3-4 kcal which is absolutely awful if someone bursts before I get to eat and that happens all the time. I guess I should just try ending with 236K instead, but it is still awful when people know to burst when you are low on food and you can't do much about it. Also another question. If you are in the red zone or have an empty food gauge, what do you do in neutral or pressure now that the opponent doesn't need to respect anything? I usually fall back and become defensive looking for opportunities to grab, blitz shield, or poke out of pressure to end with 2D, but that really just plays into the opponent's hands, especially since Sin's neutral becomes complete garbage without food and he loses his DP. What are the best blockstrings to do if I want to eat without a knockdown if I am slightly low on food (3-5 kcal) and know I won't open the opponent up? I also find myself in this situation as well. I have tried doing things like f.S > 5H(2) > 236H > 214H or f.S > 236H > 214S > 214H if I have more than 3 kcal. Pretty awful idea unless you have 25 meter, but I just feel so uncomfortable with 5 kcal or less regardless of what direction the current match's momentum is flowing.

Those are pretty neat. Wonder if they'd also work out of doing 214K[6] and then delayed air back dash or the ones that have the delayed parts. An another note I have a question about what to do in situations where the opponents has a burst and your back is to the corner. So let's say you either DP or somehow poke the opponent out of their pressure (and you are not close enough to end with 2D), how do you prevent the opponent from bursting you back into the corner without meter? I have actually been having a hard time with this in general, especially after a successful DP since you need to dedicate 5000 calories to get the knockdown if you hit them standing and don't get a CH. This means that if they burst you into the corner, you will not have enough food to get a knockdown out of a non-CH DP a second time. Hell, just people bursting when they see the food bar is yellow or red completely destroys Sin. Bursts are Sin's worst nightmare when he is doing his specials during combos outside of Beak Driver loops. I'd say that the visual indication is actually a subtle nerf to Sin rather than a simple aesthetic change or quality of life fix.

This is some good shit. That oki stuff with the 236236P fireball was pretty insane.

Tager, Azrael, and Arakune as Team Sector Seven Backdash.

A couple combos using the new non-clean hit 623S midscreen that work on every character EXCEPT KY. Damage from Sol. One thing to note is that you'd be able to use these out of any confirm into 2D from almost every distance that 2D would still be able to land from. The thing is that simply doing 2D > 236K > 236D gets you pretty much the same damage. These combos are more like corrections in a situation where you didn't think you'd get a blue 623S than anything else. If you are near the corner though, you can do some fun stuff off of the j.K using the wall splat, but all of those combos are mad character specific. [4 kcal] 2D > 236K > 623S(blue) > 214K > j.S > j.K > j.236H [112 DM] You can replace j.K with j.6H but it only does 8 more damage and is much less consistent. You can even alternatively do j.S > j.P > j.S to get the same damage as well. Lighter characters will require you to do j.S > j.P so you get both hits of j.236H in. [6 kcal] 2D > 236K > 623S(blue) > 214S > 214K > j.S > 5P > 5H [137 DM] This is an alternative that works on lighter characters since they bounce high enough. Costs more food though. Damage is from Millia in this case.

So 2H is apparently almost completely immune to the pushback scaling of combos. Probably not something that most would be able to take advantage of, but it is super good for restand since you will not be sent away from the opponent after using it. Doing 2H > 5D > YRC after doing the final repetition of a Beak Driver loop will leave you in the range to grab the opponent without having to dash > FD brake. So you have a billion different options for mixup if you have 25 meter. Coolest thing is that in the cases where you don't spend 50 meter to go into the loop, you'll probably generate enough meter by the end of the combo to do so; a great example is the path after a corner 5D.

Probably unlikely to even happen. It'd be really cool if it did though.

Oh neat I should have thought of that. All I was using j.D > YRC for was mixup out of jump cancellable moves. Seems like a great idea to halt the momentum of a hop with it to call people out on their AAs and get an easy punish if you space it correctly.

Oh yeah I'll definitely try it when baiting AAs since getting a CH j.214S is the best. I just didn't have anything confirmed for how effective using a low j.214S on the opponent's wakeup was until now.

It doesn't have its attack level listed on the wiki, but if it is level 4 like the rest of Sin's longer ranged specials, I think it may actually be safe to use despite it having 10 frames of landing recovery considering it makes Sin fall faster. I should do some tests since level 4 attacks have 18 frames of blockstun. I think the lowest it could possibly be is level 2 and even then it would have 13 frames of blockstun so if you do the move as close to the ground as possible, you may be able to get it to be even at +/-0 maybe. Okay I was right. I made it ~+3 by doing an air dash super close to the ground before inputting the j.214S. It works. Leaves you outside of grab range at around the max range of 2P while still getting the meaty though I guess this may differ with wakeup timings.