chzchan

So let's say you have already used your air option by IADing or double jumping but you happen to make your opponent block an air normal. In some of these cases you may be near the ground but your opponent may be positioned differently depending on the situation. There is a situation I am caught up in fairly often that I always seem to get punished for. If the opponent and I are still in the air and I don't fall faster than the opponent after I land whatever normals on them while they are blocking, what do I do? I feel like my only safe route is to block and that is specifically when I had been positioned at the same level before I made them block something that isn't j.CC as j.CC makes you float and touch down on the ground later than the opponent if both of you were at the same vertical air positioning. If I try to punish mashing by doing delayed j.CC, I usually get AA'd or DP'd though if I get AA'd it is usually my fault for not making the gap small. The gap being small makes it just as easy to punish if it is being used for the sake of getting to the ground while the opponent is still blocking. If I am below then all is good, but if I am above them I just feel helpless, especially if I made them block a j.C since I know that j.C doesn't have enough blockstun to allow me to continue pressure when I hit the ground and j.CC is a terrible option for reasons mentioned above. Should I be ending the incredibly short blockstring with j.236A or something? Should I not be using j.C for air-to-air engagements at all? Then goddamn instant block makes things even worse.

Also, though I am pretty sure this has been shown in a Japanese video before, you can just do 623D > j.236D > j.214{A} and pick up with 5C when the projectile hits. This is very dependent on the spacing of your opponent though. It will not work if your opponent was in the air when 623D hit and, if they were a bit too far away, j.214{A} will not reach the opponent when they are knocked down by j.236D. You can get ~2.8k which is pretty alright for 2 charges though the biggest difference is that you are committing 2 charges regardless of if you hit or not when you'd only lose 1 charge before in 1.1 if you wanted to make the DP safe. You know, then you'd only spend a second charge if you actually hit them with the DP and you'd go into 6C and all that which I miss.

Yeah but I can purple grab someone with the command grab if they barrier when I could not in 1.1 when 5A/2A were level 0 moves. I already explained the conditions a couple times, but I don't know why it would be possible now.

Figured out how to get something like the old j.236A corner oki to work. Costs a charge most of the time, but it does the same thing essentially and this was also possible back in 1.1. If you ever get in a 6C during a combo that is not too close to expiring, you just need to jump backward and do j.D > j.C > j.236A (so j.7D). Should work on everyone except Tager. It works with things like 5A5BB5CC > 236A > 214B > 22[D], so it is just another variation that I plan on using with fluid charge spending out of bad confirms.

CH 5C > 214D > jccCT is the way to go. Doesn't get 5.6k, but 5.2k is pretty good for 25% less heat in my opinion. Mugen is just not that great this version. If 214D was not jump cancellable I think it'd see more use.

Well, it has a bigger point in non-Mugen combos now that it is stable outside of the corner. It only truly has utility if you have 2 more charges on top of the one you use for the DP.

Apparently 623D is still an S starter even though 623C was changed to a VS/Moment starter. If you are willing to blow 3 charges you can do 623D > 236D > 214D and get ~3k or a tiny bit more plus corner carry out of the reversal. Sort of miss being able to do the sideswap j.214B route for only 1 charge and the 6C catch, but this still works sorta.

Actually haven't gotten to fight too many of them and unfortunately I have done so only online, but Noel being able to dash cancel optic barrel even on whiff makes the matchup a goddamn nightmare in various places. She can use it to reset pressure when she is at certain distances in a pressure string even if I barrier or instant barrier which is pretty scary. I know that you can mash or DP out here, but if she spaces things correctly it is hard. I am pretty sure you can just up back out for free though, especially if you IB the projectile. In most cases probably because of me respecting her too much, blocking Optic Barrel means that they immediately get momentum. This is not the worst of it, though. So what I would do before is make them whiff Optic Barrel and then try to close distance because they will be stuck in recovery for at least a moment. Too bad you can't do that now because even on whiff she can just dash cancel and punish your retaliation. Whiffed Optic Barrel into dash cancelled 4D is the worst. This makes neutral way worse than it already was.

Optic Barrel being dash cancellable changed EVERYTHING.

So did 5A/2A pushback change by an ever so slight amount? Like it doesn't seem like it did to me, but that might be the case.

No it whiffs completely. It will still catch if you delay the command grab input in 1.1. In 2.0, you don't need to delay it and they will still get grabbed.

No like you just can't get a purple grab out of 63214C after landing a point blank dashing 5A on an opponent that barriers in 1.1. It just doesn't work no matter how early you special cancel it. You can do it in 2.0. Oh wait I think this may have something to do with 5A/2A getting their attack level upped or maybe her 2.0 dash being adjusted? Like I don't even know man.

Alright I guess it just makes sense to not always try to provoke people who will block into mashing and just going for grab or command grab instead. Just a side note, I think the command grab got buffed somehow. Going to upload a short video later, but you can do some things with it now that you can't in 1.0/1.1. The only example of this that I have had successful tests on is doing a point blank dashing 5A > 63214C on an opponent who barriers in 2.0 allows you purple grab while in 1.0/1.1 that just is not allowed and doesn't happen under the same conditions. Startup is the same, range is most likely the same and 5A pushback on barrier is the same, so I don't know what the hell they did.

Yeah that's what I mean. Like ways to provoke non-reversal mashing. Ways to get people into the mindset that they shouldn't just jump away or commit to a reversal while you keep your risk as low as possible. The 236A thing works pretty well because it not only moves you close to the opponent, it tells them that they are pretty safe to try and punish you with a 5A or at bare minimum start pressure from that jab instead of using a DP or just flying away. I want to figure out more stuff like this. Conditioning with charge cancels and delayed followups is so inconsistent.

What are you guys' preferred ways of provoking people into mashing? I feel like I haven't been doing that great of a job with this kind of conditioning but it may just be the people I am fighting being smart. I think the most damaging counterhits I get often come from ending pressure with 236A and then using a slightly delayed 22D out of 236A the next time. I feel like I haven't been creative enough in this area so got any suggestions?

Oh whoops thanks for the correction. Well, I don't see him trying to reaction 5B/2B/3C me in neutral unless he like knows that it will work. Tager relies on throwing out mids in neutral when he doesn't commit to a super jump so I don't think giving reaction 214D a shot is that bad of an idea.

Would 214D be useful while Tager is 5Ding you when you are magnetized or is that not a good idea? Maybe against his sledge? He doesn't have any super long low attacks that I'd usually see him throw out in neutral and the only projectile he has is spark bolt. Maybe an okay idea?

Wish it had head invuln. Or actually I wish it had head invuln when it used to track the opponent.

j.214D has only been able to do that when near the corner because of the slide since you could pick the opponent up with 2B/6B/6C when they were in one place. You could end with 3CC, but that was it; your combo would be over if you were anywhere on the screen besides near the corner. If you ever got a random 5B > sj.BCC on an airborne opponent or just a random air hit j.CC, you could not get any more damage out of it unless you had at least 2 charges or 50% and spending 50% was definitely not worth it in the last version because of Tsubaki's awful damage. If I get an AA in with my back to the corner, I can carry all the way to the other corner using the current j.214D and get good damage out of it. If I get a random air confirm midscreen, I can j.214D and get the equivalent of a regular grounded combo or more and go all the way to the corner. It is way better now in my eyes. I use 22D a lot instead of 236D because normals into 236D only become frame traps based on distance and 236D counterhits are very very difficult to follow up for me, especially on the larger characters that you need to do 5B2C on instead of 5C2C and Makoto. 22D counterhits are just as easy to follow up as they were in the old game. The only difference between the two in pressure is that the spacing that each leaves you at is based on how many normals you used in pressure. 236D's end spacing after the opponent blocks it is constant regardless of how far away you were before using it, but 22D may push you back if you use it too far away. If I'd want to stay in, I would probably use a jab and another normal before using it or maybe even just a jab because 5A/2A > 22D has a 3 frame gap due to 5A/2A having buffed attack levels with 11 frames of blockstun instead of 9. Another thing about spacing is that 22D will leave you at a range where IAD will not cross up. I like doing a 22D that pushes me way the hell away and either firing a projectile, backing off to charge, or IADing back in from the distance that it puts me at.

I actually use D moves way more in neutral and not for the sake of damage in combos than before. I felt that in 1.1, I needed to save charges for damage since you really really needed them to do any, but now I'm using them a lot more freely because she actually deals damage without them. Though charges do see some vital use in air conversions and AA combos in the form of j.214D > ground pickup, I don't really use charges for the sake of damage in combos that much unless I have access to 214D > CT in a combo. I'd rather use them for easy access to gimmick oki, or more corner carry. Don't forget about the charge acceleration. I absolutely love using the new 421D ball for everything. Using it in neutral sometimes allows you to get 1 or more charges back due to acceleration depending on the matchup and what the opposing player decides to do. Using it after a corner knockdown has proven super successful for me as well. It is a great shield and really fun for covering approaches. 623D is still kind of not that great, but you can DP through bursts with it using the extra invuln. Still combo fodder, but now that you can do 623D > j.214A(w) > 2C midscreen with consistency in this version, I'd say that it is better combo fodder now than it was. 236D being plus on block makes it a fairly safe way to close distance if you are too far away to continue pressure out of the max range of a normal, but it still kind of sucks because of pushback and only being +2 on block. If the opponent doesn't barrier, it sets up the perfect distance for IAD crossup mixup if you 5B right after the opponent blocks 236D. Still, it is just so easy to get mashed out of stuff. 214D no longer tracks, but it has buffed invuln so it has some use outside of combos. Love it now because of the amazing route that it opened up for Tsubaki to deal damage. 22D is plus on block without needing to be charged which has utility and the fact that it can be fully charged after 6CC is amazing for midscreen punishes. Still experimenting with it though. j.236D is fun for breaking the opponent's combos when thrown out in neutral, but not nearly as fun as 421D. Lost sideswitch routes out of DP that it had back in 1.1. Still looking for things to do with it outside of combos aside from gimmick pressure out of air to ground j.CC. Man I mentioned it already but j.214D is beyond godlike. Being able to get damage and amazing corner carry off of any random air hit or stray ground to air hit into short juggle combo for just 1 charge is the best thing ever.

Trying. Already have Tsubaki, Bullet, Kagura, and a tiny bit of Lambda frame test footage recorded. Just gotta frame-by-frame the footage, log the numbers, and not screw up. Shit wait I just realized that I don't need the data to at least list simple changes. I can do those for a couple characters, but they'd turn into REAL lists. I think that they are still the same because those were the "official" changes. Need to make an unlisted section that would go on for a couple pages per character.

Still have dreams of what it'd be like if 214D was jump cancellable on block. Almost perfect spacing for IAD j.B cross up. But oh well, that was a while ago when that was even part of speculation haha. I think I'm pretty comfortable with what she lost in this version for what she gained. I'm having a hell of a lot more fun at least.

Alright. The path you chose is the harder one because you have to consistently input as quickly as possible to allow for the 5C link just like in 1.1 minus the microdashing. You can keep using this route, but I'd say it is slightly harder on the hands so I would advise against sticking with it. Like Kiba also mentioned, it does affect the mid-combo positioning.

Hey we got a ton of nice shit in this version, but it will forever be a struggle from more fundamental problems.

j.214A? You mean j.236A whiff?