burgerkong

Ah, ok. Melee doesn't seem to be Ex-S's strong point anyway though due to his crappy mobility, unless they're really that godlike. And ideally you don't want to be quantizing since it means you would be getting hit rather than doing the hitting, but it's probably better than getting hit anyways :P Yeah, it's definitely possible to let 2.5k front and die first, I've done it before in vanilla EXVS as SF or other long-ranged suits if I had a very melee-oriented suit as my partner (God, Deathscythe, etc.). I've also tried to do it when I got paired up with 1k in shuffle, though it usually doesn't work too well to give them 6 lives :P Would you use Assault or Blast in this situation though? God has amazing buffs in both Bursts by virtue of being a G Gundam suit, and I'm not too sure as to Deathscythe. And I'm assuming the back 3k would likely use Blast. But it seems with the buffs both God and Deathscythe received to their ranged game (God Slash and reloadable assists + good vulcans, respectively), they can play a much more competent back role now. I'll definitely agree Blast is the more stable and generally the solid option if you're not really sure which to pick, but Assault does have its uses on offensive suits and double-front full offensive teams IMO.

Thanks! Hopefully Brett get backs to us soon, but I was hoping to ask you a more personal question regarding Blast types specifically. I remember you had an unorthodox team with AutomaticCat @ SCR2014 (2.5-2k, God/Gunner), but I unfortunately don't remember who played which suit (I think you played God, though I'm not 100%). I went back to look at the archive and I noticed oddly that God used Blast and Gunner used Assault, which seems inverse to the roles they would play in the team. Is there a reason behind this, or just personal preference? Just curious, since I was wondering about it before and kind of forgot until now :P BTW great job on commentary throughout the event, Team Sadface OP

LOL, I was just thinking the same thing. Sorry about that, I'm partly to blame (which is pretty bad considering I'm the one who made this thread). Getting back on topic, are there any miscellaneous reasons behind burst choice? For example, both Quanta and 00 have Trans-Am Quantization accessible during Burst, which isn't too important but is a small factor in their Burst choice. What exactly is Ex-S's unique Burst effect? The JP wiki mentions ALICE, but I don't really know it's exact effects. Also, are there any others I'm missing? I know Zeta and ZZ get superarmor, for example, but specifically for 3ks that might make a difference?

I dunno, now that this thread has attracted a lot attention, I kind of want to start discussing 2500 burst types, mainly because I feel that they have the most flexibility when it comes to team comps (both 3k-2.5k and 2.5k-1k are competitive, and in 3k-2.5k opens the possibility for dedicated front-back roles or double-front) and I would like the opinions of KYSF, Brett, and other experienced players if possible. Particularly on suits like God, Deathscythe, etc., which have strong close ranged properties. @ brett, would it be preferable for me to open up a new thread in the 2.5k thread? I'm assuming so, since it would be kind of weird to talk about it here, but we've already kind of strayed off topic ;P

DAMNIT I didn't know, I didn't know, I didn't know... But thanks for joining, glad to hear your input :D I definitely fit into the category of "newbie" LOL

Thanks! btw is this Ogu? It seems oddly convenient that he's visiting from Japan and you join this forum at the same time, and that you play SF and IJ... If so "I knew, I knew, I knew-" And if not I didn't know

Ah, I see the importance of role flexibility regarding health management, which is why I guess Cherudim has never been higher than mid-tier. He's pretty bad in the front department. And Epyon can't play back at all I'll admit I haven't seen a lot of high level Cherudim play, so I can't really say I've seen this kind of diverse play (at least consciously). Most of the games I've seen has Cherudim playing a solid back role, while his 3k partner just goes in :P I agree that defensive Full Burst still is far from optimal, but I was mainly stating that it's definitely more viable in FB now, and can happen if you just don't find a good opportunity to burst on your first life. That being said, it's hard not to argue Blast is better for Cherudim IMO

I'm confused, if his role is "defensive", then why is he "fronting"? Cherudim is terrible as a front suit, and I doubt Assault Burst is gonna change that anytime soon. While I agree it's more common to save up for a Full Burst in FB in a close game and using it to save yourself in a standard overcost situation, the only benefit Assault has is that you have 15% more boost when using it defensively. Meanwhile, Blast has a host of benefits that allow him retreat better (BD efficiency, step cancelling projectiles for safer landings) that make you a lot harder to kill. In a game where you are in an advantageous position and want to use your half-burst to press the advantage, Blast is undeniably better. Step cancelling your projectiles, improved red lock range, faster reload, and better BD efficiency are all things that Cherudim would love, while the melee buffs and slightly faster BD speed are almost useless, since you'll ideally be far away from enemies anyway. Alright, just wanted to clear that up just in case. Thanks

Double tap a direction (identical motion to step) whilst boosting straight up (tapping and holding b once, not boost dashing). Basically never seen an Epyon do this outside of dodging things though, so it's not super handy unless I'm missing something.

As Brett mentioned, I was mainly talking about the melee-specific buffs to improved melee reach and speed with regards to Cherudim. Sorry for the confusion, should have specified. With regards to Epyon, if you're looking to use it to "open a brief window of opportunity", then Assault seems preferable here. His melee reach and speed is improved, as is his BD speed, which helps him in close quarters. Ideally you don't want to be getting hit in Burst anyways, so the 10% defense isn't too significant IMO. I really do see both options being viable, but I disagree that Blast is the definitive burst for Epyon. I really do prefer Assault on a double-front comp (3k + 2.5k), which I think Epyon would excel in (as much as Epyon can excel). Blast's longer duration and BD efficiency would be the primary reason behind picking it, which I do agree are great, but most of the remaining bonuses (reload, step cancels) go to waste. TBH, I haven't seen an incredible amount of Unicorn gameplay, but oddly enough I've mainly seen Unicorn played in Blast. That and Assault's mediocre effects in Unicorn Mode were the reasons I see Blast as the more stable and popular choice. Thanks for both your in depth post Brett. Sorry if I came off as stating my opinion as fact, I'm just trying to rationalize the Burst choice. While some are definitely better on paper than others, a lot of it boils down to personal preference and playstyle. I apologize if my opening post didn't emphasize it enough. And yeah, Unicorn seems kinda superfluous thanks to NT-D's godlike BD melee, but Blast is the more flexible option since it's very effective in Unicorn Mode compared to NT-D. It also lets him amekyan off of anything (turnaround Main, BZ, etc.), which is pretty nice. Although less important, Unicorn's burst bonuses overall aren't too amazing anyway (Assault = +8% Damage, +10% Defense, Blast = +20% Defense). Yeah, this is the most logical basis behind picking Blast, and I guess it explains the commonness of Blast that I've seen for the most part amongst most JP games I've seen. Even Quanta usually picks Blast for longer trans-am time (and possibly faster reload on Zabanya assist and Shield bits), and I've seen some Masters pick Blast too (shoutouts to Ogu on Brett's stream, he's amazing at the game and pretty funny. "I knew, I knew." Shame I haven't been able to catch these live to due university D:)

Nice to meet you KYSF! (Do you mind if I use this abbreviation? If not, please let me know, no disrespect intended) I don't have the game yet, but I will in a month's time. So this is coming from a player who played EXVS fairly often, but hasn't transitioned into FB just yet due to university constraints Out of curiosity, how many "mains" do you have, and how many did you play when you started out? I have a problem deciding on suits I wanna play, I primarily go off the tier list but there's so many interesting suits I enjoy. How do you narrow it down? Also, I made a thread earlier regarding Burst choices for 3000s, I would appreciate any advice you could offer: http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/topic/8555-fb-3000-suits-assault-vs-burst/

I've seen some people opt for Blast due to longer duration and better BD efficiency, and Master still has crazy good buffs in Blast. However, I agree that Master synergizes with Assault better, and it's what I would normally use on Master. Perhaps the main exception would be if my team had a stronger neutral game (which would only really be against another melee team).

I dunno, Assault seems kind of gimmicky, since it's pretty lacklustre if you use it in Unicorn mode, whereas Blast is universally good. NT-D BD melee does become pretty ludicrous though. Unicorn doesn't have anything super important to reload, but Blast improves BD efficiency and also lets it amekyan from anything (turnaround BR > amekyan, BZ > amekyan, etc.) which is fairly nice compounded with Blast's faster reload times (assists reload ~4s). Yeah, both Hi Nu and Nu are both hard to argue for Assault, their melees are good (Hi-nu's is slightly better thanks to its BD melee and 2b option) but not spectacular and they both heavily favour the neutral game. Increased red lock range = more funnels from even further away, and funnels are step cancellable. And Hi-nu gets a faster reload on his Psycoframe Resonance, which is really great :D

He gets a 30% buff to defense in Blast, and 20% in Assault, so I dunno if the 10% is really that big a difference. The improved reload rate goes to waste too, so it's hard not to recommend Assault. Blast is definitely not the definitive Burst type for him IMO Assault Cherudim seems bad, the buffs to melee go completely wasted on him, and his EX Burst is pretty bad. Using Blast Burst to reload shield bits faster also seems much better in comparison IMO

Wait, does Full Cloth's CS's reload faster during Burst? Just read over 00's wiki page, and it mentions 00 Raiser gauge doesn't reload faster during Burst? If not, then it really does seem subjective as to which Burst to use for Full Cloth. I've seen Blast most commonly-used on him, but that doesn't account for much.

Turn X I can see being Blast, since it caters to his overall playstyle better. Step cancelling CSa is very nice, I have to remember that Blast lets you step cancel things. I honestly didn't really know which would be better, was going off his bonuses which are crazy good in Assault (+20% damage increase, -15% damage taken), 2nd highest bonuses behind G Gundam suits). Master's melee seems too ridiculous to not be Assault IMO, and most of the Blast bonuses aside from the longer duration don't too useful (no notable ammo to reload, is step cancelling Main important at all?). I don't know his damage modifiers in Blast, but his Assault mods are crazy (+22% damage increase, -20% damage taken). I generally see Full Cloth played Blast to reload his CS's at 2x speed after using them up. I can see Full Cloth w/CSb up and Assault being extremely scary, but it would be kind of situational.

Blast more emphasizes the neutral game, and is more for applying safe pressure and keeping the opponent at bay. It's definitely not as fast as Assault and can't cause massive comebacks or damage swings, but you have better BD efficiency and can step-cancel your projectile moves, which is definitely a plus on ranged suits. It's lower risk, lower reward, which overall fits the grindy, neutral-heavy styles of a lot of suits. Burst type is fairly subjective, and although certain suits seem more apt for certain bursts you can get away with any burst type depending on your playstyle and overall player skill. With regards to Xi specifically, I think the main benefit though would be faster reload on Minovsky Craft while in Blast, which seems really good. Xi also gains a massive defense buff during Blast (+25%), and the melee buffs are fairly negligible since Xi's melees aren't that good either. Again though, it's fairly superfluous in comparison to player skill.

Oh LOL, ok. Thanks brett and Tari, appreciate it. Edit: Forgot to mention it's a compilation of 3k movesets, cancel routes, and combos and stuff. Google Translate is a bitch, so I can only manage that much (can't really do tactics or anything like that). Do you guys mind taking a look at what I have so far? I don't use Google docs very often, so sorry if the formatting is ugly/off. I'll be adding a few pics to make it a little easier on the eyes once I'm done. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1FXEu78hWaZ8E6tMYzJkWnIHoMzvgG4oQk3O391VXFSU/edit?usp=sharing

Ah, I see, so similar to Raphael funnels and the like since there's slight delay. With regards to the 00 assist, I noticed that the word "amekyan" was mentioned in Google translate under the details for ac in the JP wiki :/ Dunno what it could be for then, which sucks since I'm trying to compile a pseudo guide in Google docs

LOL, sorry to keep bringing these up, but Turn X's directional ac freefalls, does this count as a 'cancel'? I'm not entirely sure :S Also 00 has an amekyan out of 5ac (Seravee), right? I didn't see it in the list

I dunno if this is the right place to post this, since these subforums seem to be filled completely with individual suit threads. If not, please let me know! Anyways, since I've been unable to get my hands on the game for now (have to hold off till summer due to university), I've been mostly watching vids and theorycrafting. One of my main questions is burst types for particular suits. I've noticed in like 90% of the Japanese FB matches people are using Blast, which makes sense given the more neutral-based meta of FB and the various other beneficial aspects of Blast (longer duration for suits like Quanta and 00, faster reload for important weapons like Full Cloth's CS's, and step-cancelling various projectiles). My question is, are there any suits that would use Assault? Immediate standouts include Master, but are there any others? Some of the burst types that I found surprising/uncertain about: Turn A - Blast. Somewhat surprising, but it makes sense. Step cancelling Main (hammer) for zundas is incredibly good, and the importance of landing Moonlight Butterfly is not nearly as important as in vanilla, since Turn A has so many new/buffed tools now. Turn X - Assault? Nothing important to reload or step cancel here, but at the same time melee isn't spectacular and Moonlight Butterfly is so long it doesn't matter if EX meter or boost is preserved after it. No clue here. Destiny - Blast. Despite being somewhat-melee oriented, I guess the benefits of Blast are more important here (maintaining ammo on its low BR, step-cancel boomerang?). Epyon - Assault seems obvious, but I've seen a mix of both in vids online. Blast does not seem good at all, since Epyon doesn't have a Burst Mode like Trans-Am or anything to reload or even step-cancel (all his moves are rainbow-step-cancellable since they're melee). Anything I'm missing? The rest of the 3k suits seem to heavily favour Blast Burst IMO. Assault Burst is still certainly usable and you will still definitely win with it (I've seen SF Assault vids), and I feel FB comes a lot more down to overall player skill and teamwork in the neutral rather than EX Burst timing or choice. As an aside, the bursts on the 3k and 2k suits seem fairly straightforward due to their fixed roles in good team comps (3k always front, 2k always back). 2.5ks seem more dynamic in their Burst choice, since they either play dedicated back (3k-2.5k) or double front (certain 3k-2.5k comps, 2.5k-1k comps). Suits like Banshee, God, Xenon, Deathscythe, The O, etc., I can see playing either burst depending on comp. Please leave any criticisms or any outright omissions in the comments. Again, since I don't have the game yet, I can't really put any of this into practice, and I want to know before I get my copy so I can dive right in.

Oh yeah fuck that is good LOL Completely forgot about step-cancelling projectile attacks during Blast, now it makes sense. Zunda hammer too good LOL BTW, Brett's transition guide mentions that you can step-cancel vernier moves "with some exceptions". I'm assuming that more powerful vernier moves (i.e. gerobis, nuke, etc.) cannot be step cancelled?

A question about Burst choice. Most of the JP players I've seen pick Blast with him, is there a reason behind that aside from the longer duration and buffed defense (which are certainly nice)? Turn A doesn't seem to have anything crucial to reload (the extra reload is nice tho). Assault seems to better correspond with its emphasis on melee, but with the changes in FB it seems that Turn A revolves less around 6b and more around 2BC --> brake cancel A. I might be wrong though, since I don't even have the game yet waiting for summer to start playing

According to JP wiki, DX can also turnaround freefall its CSa w/BC. I don't know Japanese, so I'm basing this all on Google translate, but does DX also need to have its assist already out to freefall cancel, similar to Sazabi?

The Sazabi thread mentions off-angle BR --> bc while assist is up is an amekyan. Can't confirm since I don't have the game yet