brett_

Can't you just recover from j.236C rather than needing the j.214A whiff? If they block 623C the setup doesn't really seem to be very useful - we might as well just be talking about the legitimacy of meaty 623C, but why do that when you have Dash C.

Really don't know why you feel the need to write out the entire bnb notation ._. Still pretty confused about what this is supposed to be because there's no real description. I'm going to assume that the j.214A > 623C is supposed to be blocked? You should probably designate where the combo actually ends though. Unless this is all a combo, but based on your comment afterwards it doesn't seem like it. I can't really help you with this because I'm having trouble understanding what this setup is. @wiki: The mizuumi wiki? I haven't written anything there. Someone else just took one of my random posts regarding basic seth bnb theory and copy/pasted it, at least thats what it seems like.

1) Ah, yeah I haven't gotten around to damage values on a lot of those combos - I wasn't aware that omitting 2C actually increases the damage a bit. The actual combo is just the Dash C version, but I have that combo listed as the basic, or easy version. I think I'd still suggest 2C because it's a lot easier to execute, and if you want to omit 2C you might as well just do Dash C afterwards, since that's also really easy. I'll consider making a note somewhere about it, but honestly everyone should just be Dash C'ing. I might just make the Dash C version the bnb rather than making it an optional extension. As a taking off point though, 2C seems more introductory. 2) I generally do not fastfall after CS cancelling from command grab. If you're whiffing Dash C it just means your timing is tight. If you're hitting crossup Dash C, you can just delay your 623B input to get it to come out the right way. I'm not really sure what would be giving you trouble, but perhaps just not dashing so long - just input it as 6 6+C and it should be very easy to connect. 3) What you're describing is a j.214B CS pickup into standard corner combo, which is described somewhere else in the combo section I think (I SHOULD have it there, if it's not, I must have just forgotten about it or it might have gotten jumbled up somewhere). [Edit: Ah I just had it listed in the unblockables section only] In any case, though its not important, another reason I haven't really bothered paying that much attention to exact values in many CS combos is due to the fact that it depends on how much GRD you have at the time of CS. Corner j.214B > j.6C > 2C(1) > etc into corner bnb does indeed do ~100 more dmg or MORE, if you have SIX or more GRD blocks when you CS. If you have less, j.B > j.C > 2C does more damage. Regardless the damage difference isnt too big, and j.6C is universal whereas j.B will whiff in the corner on some characters, so it's pretty much player preference. My guide simply says all of them are possible, so I leave it up to the player to choose which they want. You don't actually need to do 214A4C. If you're at the corner, 214AC puts you in the exact same spot, unless I'm tripping out somehow. 4) Yes

5C > 623B > Dash C > 623A > 2C(1) > 214AC > 6C > 236B > j.214A > 214BB > 22 > 2C(1) > 3C > Orb Hits > 6C seems to do more than the previous 5C > 2C > 623A combo. I already forgot the damage on it, will recheck later on, but its over 3300 iirc. Certainly more than 3200. 3C CH > 2A whiff > 2C(2) route still does more, but this can be done from non-CH starter. note that the 2C(1) > 3C > 6C ender here is used - it improves damage significantly in this combo but it doesn't seem to for many others. Using this ender for the traditional 3200 5C > 2C combo puts it at 3201 instead (lol), and using it at the end of the 3C CH combo actually reduces the damage slightly, in this case due to SMP on 3C is my guess. My assumption is that if you did dash C in your pre-214AC series, then 2C > 3C will extend damage compared to the SMP'd Dash C ender. Will test later with raw Dash C starter and recheck damage to see if that stays consistent. I also found a really easy midscreen UB setup that goes into dash C oki like the one I wrote above, using the same 2C > 3C ender concept: standard bnb into 6C > j.214A > 214BB > 2C(1) > 3C > TK EX Orb > CS > j.6C > dash C oki > Orbs Hit > Unblockable. Haven't fully tested it but hopefully it works along the samelines as the 2a starter.

The combos section on the wiki already seems to be stuff I wrote that someone plopped down there, so if anyone wants to do that for any of the other information I've written, they're more than welcome to. That being said, the document I've made is meant to be my personal review of the character, not something that can be easily compatible with the thoughts of others. There is certainly room to debate MUCH of what I've written. The wiki, on the other hand, is not my personal space to prune and edit, however - it serves a different purpose than what my google documents are often for. Again, anyone who wants to sift through what I've written and throw it on the wiki is more than welcome to, as long as they're aware that what I've written is often subjective.

Since no one has really written out an actual guide for this character, I just cleaned my notes up and added some more explanations http://tinyurl.com/sethguide feel free to throw it up on the 2nd post or whatever if people want.

Shit I totally forgot I was running this thread lol. First of all regarding the above combos, 6BB can be followed up consistently if you use FUWASTEP, which is what you generally want to use. My recommended bnb's for this suit actually are completely different than the above: Your main BNB: 6BB > CSa - 195 dmg, extremely cut resistant for obvious reasons. Extremely fast and downs for almost 200 damage. 6B > 6BB -> CSa - 197 dmg. Basically the same as above, but used for when you're mashing 6B steps and confirm off the 2nd 6B. Reset combo: 6BB > Sub - ~200 dmg. Decent damage and creates a reset opportunity pretty easily. Damage: 6BB > 5BB8B - does good damage, and launches them up. Fuwastep to connect 5B after the 6BB. This is also probably your best ender for doing nuke oki (or cage). Can activate and step after the launch then time a nuke. 5BB > 5BB8BB - similar to above from 5B starter Nuke combo: BD Melee (4hit) > 2AC→A >> ABC - ~250ish. Rainbowstep back for this combo. Not really worth the damage tbqh but it is very cool looking :P. Maybe more worth it if you play A. 6B combos into CSa are really consistent and you don't lose too much damage. Very reliable if you're being pursued and land a hit. If you see no cut coming then you can go for the 6BB > 5BB8B combo instead for damage. If you land a BD Melee and see no cut coming, you can just mash B for a total of like 220. You can do actual combos to get a bit more damage, but its worth knowing that BD Melee full hit raw does a ton of damage lol. Most of the time when you hit a raw melee with this suit you're gonna be low on boost, which is why I recommend the solid cut resistant boost efficient combos primarily. This suit isn't really about doing fancy combos or landing solid melee hits to begin with, tbqh. Most of the time if you are 1on1'ing someone it's because you're being double locked - this suit is pretty much untouchable in many 1on1 situations due to his shield, so people will generally try and ignore you until you're caught in a bad situation.

Have a router or ethernet switch (hard line) and just plug all 4 of them in, and it'll play as "LAN" basically. Best blue bar even if your net itself is crap. The game basically emulates lan if it sees the other ps3s are connected locally. If you only have wireless, you're out of luck unless you want to do complicated stuff though.

Ah okay, my bad then. In any case, I don't think that section is terribly wrong per se, but the suit hasn't been out for that long, it might be better to make it more neutral / general until more of a consensus is determined on it.

Stream: http://twitch.tv/thebrett Bracket / SIgnup: http://ubw.challonge.com/p4u2_09212014 When: 5PM PST What is Checking In? Challonge brackets now have a check-in feature which lets us know you are present for the tournament on the day of. You can check-in on the challonge bracket page as early as one hour before the tournament starts. If you do not check-in, your opponent can DQ you for not showing up to the match shortly after the tournament starts. Report Your Own Scores We primarily use Challonge so that you can report your own match results without having to go through us. Please do not post in chat what the results of your match are, because we don't do anything with that information. Want to be featured on stream? All top 8 matches are streamed and recorded for YouTube archives, but if you want to be featured on stream PRIOR to that, there is actually no real protocol other than asking me (preferably ahead of time). If it doesn't look like I have any upcoming matches scheduled for the stream, try and get my attention (highlight me) and let me know you want to be on stream. You can also inform a mod if it looks like I am busy. Details Double Elimination, 2/3 (3/5 WF/LF/GF) If neither player can connect to each other after all possible options are explored, the match will be resolved with RPS. In the case of disconnects, match is entirely restarted. In the case of repeated disconnects, the game is forfeit (but not the entire match). If a match is not reported, the winner will be given a warning. Repeated occurrences of not reporting matches will result in penalties / possible DQs.

Stream: http://twitch.tv/thebrett Bracket / SIgnup: http://ubw.challonge.com/uniel_09142014 When: 5PM PST What is Checking In? Challonge brackets now have a check-in feature which lets us know you are present for the tournament on the day of. You can check-in on the challonge bracket page as early as one hour before the tournament starts. If you do not check-in, your opponent can DQ you for not showing up to the match shortly after the tournament starts. Report Your Own Scores We primarily use Challonge so that you can report your own match results without having to go through us. Please do not post in chat what the results of your match are, because we don't do anything with that information. Want to be featured on stream? All top 8 matches are streamed and recorded for YouTube archives, but if you want to be featured on stream PRIOR to that, there is actually no real protocol other than asking me (preferably ahead of time). If it doesn't look like I have any upcoming matches scheduled for the stream, try and get my attention (highlight me) and let me know you want to be on stream. You can also inform a mod if it looks like I am busy. Details Double Elimination, 2/3 (3/5 WF/LF/GF) If neither player can connect to each other after all possible options are explored, the match will be resolved with RPS. In the case of disconnects, match is entirely restarted. In the case of repeated disconnects, the game is forfeit (but not the entire match). If a match is not reported, the winner will be given a warning. Repeated occurrences of not reporting matches will result in penalties / possible DQs.

Tweeted about this already, but I forgot to mention I further optimized the ideal 2a 5b combo - I totally forgot that the 214AC(1) ender route I had listed didn't actually include a 623B. The full combo is: 2A > 5B > 5C > 2C(2) > 623B > 623A > 2B > 214BB > j.236A > j.214A > delay 214AC(2) > 6C - 2620 dmg You can technically get the full hits of 214AC and then link to j.6C (easy) or 6C (very tough), but regardless it seems character specific - so TECHNICALLY you can actually get a little more damage from that extra 214AC hit. The only character that I've found it to be consistent getting 214AC full > 6C on is Vatista though. You'll notice I wrote 214AC(2) and not 214AC(1). That is because technically 214AC is 3 hits, something I failed to notice. You can actually get 1 or 2 hits on the 214AC to hit, depending on timing, the normal way seems natural to get 2 hits - a single hit will only lower the damage by around 5-10 from what I've seen (it's very annoying to test). On a side note, it seems like if done early in a combo, stuff > j.C > j.B does more damage than j.B > j.C. If anyone wants to further test be my guest. My assumption is that since j.C does more damage, it's better due to proration math. Or perhaps j.C just has better proration as well. This also only matters on a scale of like 10 damage or something too. Lastly, I don't know if this has been known or not, but I was messing with an interesting midscreen unblockable setup that works even from 2A, and it's actually way harder to escape. It uses 100 meter and CS. You can do it from either combo: 2A > 5B > 5C > 2C(2) > 623A > 2B > 214BB > j.236A > j.214A > delay 623B > 9 > Orb Hits > ... OR 2A > 5B > 5C > 2C(2) > (623B) > 623A > 2B > 214BB > j.236A > j.214A > 5A > 3C > 9 > Orb Hits ... once the orb hits: .... > 236C > CS > Assault > j.6C > land > dash C > Orbs Blocked > j.214B Unblockable There are a lot of midscreen EX Orb unblockables, since it's pretty easy to do ex orb, CS, and 6C knockdown to do stuff. Normally, however, they lose to back techs or delay techs or the fact that if they backdash, the orb won't be able to catch it. The nice thing about this setup is since you're TK'ing the EX orb, it's placed horizontally so it can catch backdashes properly, The other disadvantage of normal unblockable setups is that they lose to things like wakeup DPs or veil off. This setup does not, because you're meatying with dash C. Meaty dash C will beat almost every reversal in the game other than 4 character's IWs and Nanase/Hyde's DPs (due to width). This includes wakeup Veil Off. In addition, the EX orb is very far off the screen and hard to hit. Even if they DO DP you, the EX Orb will just hit them and you can generally combo off of it (something that you unfortunately cant do from the corner version). Basically if timed right the only thing this setup loses to is a properly timed guard cancel.

Well, it looks like unless I'm reading the edit history on the Banshee Norn page wrong, Akai GO did most of the writing for the banshee page. There's not anything similar in the jp wiki so I'm assuming he just wrote his own thoughts on the suit. I generally think it's not a good idea to do that unless you're confident in your evaluation of the suit, regardless of anything lse. That being said, there IS some merit to saying that Norn has some disadvantages close-range, in the sense that if the opponent is already point blank at you, many of your close range options dont work. Side Sub (the split shot) actually loses to step melee at extremely close distances, down sub and turnaround BR are also often too slow if they're already in optimal melee range. You can certainly always do something like step, turnaround BR -> Sub, but that requires stepping and being off angle, and you can't immediately sidestep after boosting (like you would to try and move out of range). Generally the easy answer is to not let them get that close in the first place and abuse free fall cancels etc to position yourself so you're ready when they close in, BUT just saying if you are caught off guard it's harder than some suits to break free. Also when being knocked down and dealing with similar situations after oki etc. Fuwastep BR -> Neutral Sub is of course good, but at point blank if they step it you're kind of in trouble (see above). This is just my opinion from experience (played a lot of sets as / vs norn). Not saying I entirely agree with the post about banshee having poor close range options, but just saying there is merit to it despite him having good close range options on paper.

214X~A - hit him after he blinks with a long poke - Yuzu 2C, Gordeau 3C / 5C, etc. 214X~B - hit him in the sky with something high reaching like Gordeau's 2C, Wald 2C, or jump and hit him rising with j.A assuming you guessed the side correctly (some chars can combo off of this, like Gordeau) 214X~C - just block and punish 214B / C naked can also be beaten with jump back rising j.A

Spent 15+ minutes trying to figure out how you were doing 3B there, but okaaaay.... 3C CH > 2a whiff > 2C > etc combo is known. it's been in my combo notes for quite a long time, meaning its probably been posted somewhere here before in some shape or form in general if you're going to post combos, post the actual damage, without vorpal. if it's a super ender, post the non-super ender route. It does 4339 dmg (4747 in vorpal). If you do the 5B > j.B > air backdash > j.6C > j.214A > IW ender route, it does 4295 dmg (4696 in vorpal). If you do a dash C > orb > 6c ender without super, it does 3364 dmg (3692 in vorpal) If you end in j.6C > j.214A > 214BB > j.214C, it does 3849 (4222 in vorpal) (3900/4279 w/o 5B j.B), with 623C ender its 3815 (4185 in vorpal) (3861/4235 w/o 5B j.B) I HIGHLY recommend doing 5B > j.B for the j.6C super ender because doing j.6C is really annoying depending on the character, and you lose 50 dmg in order to make it work on every character and undroppable.

that looks like you took a bnb, threw a 3b in there, then added IW on the end.

I am unclear what you mean. Your first sentence makes it sound like you're talking about recovering from doing a jump normal or something, but your description of the dummy does not involve attacking, unless you're using the act of shielding to reproduce a "jump-in" - which doesn't make sense since you could just record it doing an actual normal. You're talking about 623C being unable to be air blocked though, so you're saying there's something you can do that makes the dummy unable to block? Please clarify if you can.

Hey guys, sorry about not being as active in the last few months - EVO pretty much consumed all of my time, and then afterwards I decided to sell my soul to play Seth for a month. Big props to the people who have continued contributing, I know the biggest piece missing still is the system mechanics areas which I said I was going to work on - I'm currently still in the processes of pushing out a large video project with similar content, so I will probably be postponing updating that section till that is done so I can more easily throw in overlapping information. also shoutouts to the people who filled in the controls / glossary stuff!

Oh yeah, sorry I was trippin about the j.2C stuff btw - someone do it on often told me it was an overhead, hadn't bothered to check lol.

No. It's simply not an overhead while rising, otherwise instant j.2C would be broken lol.

For those of you who sent requests to see my Seth Notes document, they're public again. Also for those of you guys who were wondering what my 8k combo was, it's a gimmick reset that usually works the first time only: just do the 5.2k VO whiff EX-S ender combo, but after the first Ex Command throw, reset with a delayed j.2C into the same stuff. does ~7.7k from 5a/5b. Tried it on various people, even people who played against seth a lot. Usually once they see the VO they stop paying much attention :P. The reason I do j.2C is because it's an overhead. Still failed to top 8 at Summer Jam despite hiding tech though - sorry for letting you guy down orz.

Yeah there are areas that sear my eyes lol. The hilda match seems smooth, pity nothing interesting happens Kappa

If stellar circle is still in this thread, we should have him edit his first post on this thread.

I'm confused - doesn't that work on non-CH?

So, I mentioned posting about Seth's midscreen unblockable setup info a week or two ago, but I've been too busy to dump the stuff I found out - might as well stop procrastinating and post a bit. Some of you may already know this, but for those who think the midscreen unblockable is just guaranteed damage, read on: For those who don't know, the basic midscreen unblockable setup is the following: Stuff > 214AC > 6C > 236B > j.214A > 214BB > 22 > Dash C > Orb Hits > 236A/B > EX Command Grab > j.2C > Orb forces block > j.214B The general premise is that after j.2C, the orb keeps them in block stun, and then forces them to eat the j.214B. Now, the following is from studies I did recording various timings and setup variations on myself, so it is quite possible that more research can debunk what I'm saying. Please keep that in mind. That being said: It seems that if you COMBO into j.2C, you can backdash the orb, causing your j.214B to whiff. This seems to be the case regardless of A or B orb. The window is pretty tight depending on when you time your orb, but you can certainly mash it and easily get it every single time (thank you, input buffer). Now, it's possible that you can time your initial 236A/B to be as late as possible, then immediately cancel into EX Command Throw as early as possible, in order to make the orb later, and thus hit them at the end of their backdash. Alas, I could not accomplish this, and it doesn't seem possible, for me at least (If you're able to do this, please record and upload so this entire post can be made null). Now fortunately, if they're just mashing backdash while you're doing this setup, there's a pretty easy fix. If you DO NOT COMBO j.2C and they mash backdash, the orb will hit the backdash. I tested this with characters with good backdashes and average ones, and the orb seems to catch them all. To do this, you simply need to delay your j.2C slightly. If they get hit by the orb, your j.2C whiffs and you can combo off the orb hit. This fix, however, has a major flaw. If you do uncombo'd j.2C into Dive, and they chose to block, there is a gap between the orb and j.214B (because j.2C was delayed, so the dive will also be delayed). Meaning, if they waited and saw you uncombo'd j.2C, they can mash backdash once the orb is blocked and escape like the original setup. Again, like I mentioned above, I was not able to reproduce it, but it may be possible that you can delay making the orb as long as possible, then delay your j.2C the bare minimum to uncombo. If such was the case, you'd beat all options other than supers / DPs. If you can reproduce this, please let us know (record if possible). So, to sum it up: 1) If they're mindlessly mashing backdash, you can just delay j.2C to punish them. 2) If they're not doing anything, just do the normal setup. Here's the issue: In theory, you can probably simply watch Seth and as soon as the j.2C connects, start mashing backdash to escape EITHER option. I haven't encountered a player who can do this yet but I suspect it's very reasonable. A couple options I came up with: 1) Instead of j.2C, simply do a slightly delayed j.214B - this leaves a much larger gap, and is also jumpable, but if they're focusing on reacting to your j.2C, this may throw them off guard (by simply not j.2C'ing at all). Unfortunately, I think if you're used to this enough, you could easily recognize the gap and still be able to react to j.2C. 2) I haven't actually tested, but perhaps you can do some weird timing of j.214A to catch backdash instead (If anyone wants to test this for me, let me know) 3) Do a mixup instead (something other than j.2C, basically) 4) Perhaps you can delay your j.214B EXTREMELY LATE, so much so that you'll catch them AFTER the backdash - this seems really impractical but if your timing and yomi are on point and they're mashing backdash (often a necessity against the standard UB), you can probably catch it with practice. For now, most people have barely any normal Seth experience, let alone understand how his unblockable works, so switching up between combo and uncombo is likely good enough for now, but unless a better option gets confirmed, this may actually not end up being very viable in the end.