brett_

There is a use to that setup, i'll explain when I have time but there's a specific reason.

5A bnb with Dash B does 2532 whereas Dash C does 2595. Not too big of a deal, so if you're nervous or combo'ing a character your not confident against doing Dash C in, Dash B is an okay adjustment (I often drop Dash C on yuzu cause I psych myself out so sometimes I do dash B >_>). Remember that Dash B is extremely difficult to do the unblockable setup route from (at least in my testing), so you still should Dash C if you're going for that. Also the knockdown is SLIGHTLY farther.

it's -2 by itself (not bad, all things considered), and it launches on hit, making it easier to confirm from. Good for when you want a dashing normal but don't want to commit to confirming off single Dash C hit or something. It's also a lazy man's / netplay replacement for Dash C in Dash C BnB enders when you're afraid it's going to drop.

1) That j.214A doesn't look like it crosses up - can someone test? 2) I think the time signature on the wald match for the bait is wrong 3) Not sure what other people are using as a combo after the j.214B > Orb Hits. Currently I use: j.214B > Orb Hits > (j.)6C > j.236B > j.214A > 214B4B > 22 > 5C > 2nd Orb Hits > 6C

If it's 6C > 236B knockdown into meaty 2A, there's a lot of things you can do. The basic one would be: 2A > Filler > 623A > Orb Hits > 6C > j.214A > 214BB > 22 > 2C(2) > 2nd Orb Hits > 6C The basic filler would probably be 2A > 2B > 5C > 623A, but strings such as 2A > 5C > 5CC > 623A or even 2AAAA > 623A will work. If your filler is something with good proration like 2A > 5B > 5C > 623A, you can also end with 5B > j.B > j.6C, which is a bit easier and does a bit more damage, but will end at j.6C oki instead of 6C oki. If the starter is bad, like 2AAAA, you can do 5B > j.A > j.6C instead (basically use j.A whenever you think j.B wont hit early enough), but this does less damage than the 2C(2) route. 2C(2) > Orb Hits > 6C is generally preferred, since you get 6C instead of j.6C oki. (You get a bit more frame advantage from 6C vs j.6C. Even more so based on height). The only real reason you'd want to do the 5B > j.A/B > j.6C route is due to it being virtually impossible to drop. If you're talking about something more complicated like 2A > Orb Hits > 5C, i'll need to explore more about how to get that to work. also @ Falco: I got 3605 in Vorpal, if you do IW then the projectile hits after super flash before the IW connects

Yes the second one. It's very useful for testing stuff involving crossups with seth, especially like where to actually space your crossup j.C/B from things like 214C or whatnot to account for people holding back to block early (totally different from a dummy standing there)

Team Akatsuki and Carmine still need to make their challonge teams and tell me what they are so i can add them to the bracket

You're right. That's REALLY odd, since I swear you put yourself down on that list before. I must have accidentally deleted it!?

Just an FYI, I do not recommend asking people to contact you via DL - many people signed up for this outside of DL - please refer to the signup sheet, as it includes everyone's contact info. Otherwise, use stream chat to organize before the tournament starts tomorrow Edit: Also, you do not need to really perfectly establish the playing order right this minute. I just want the challonge teams on the roster. It can be an empty team with no one added and nothing determined. I just want the team captains making teams so i can put it on the roster. Currently TWO out of the Sixteen teams have properly made teams and have them on the bracket.

Okay guys, so the 3on3 tourney is tomorrow (today) - if your character team has a team captain, the team captain needs to make a team on Challonge. this is just so that the scores can be reported properly - I don't want to have to deal with manually inputting reported scores myself. Please have the team captain make a challonge team, then inform me of the name of that team, and I will send it an invite to the official bracket, which is currently full of dummy teams. Contacting me via twitter (@kazmadan) or e-mail (kazmadan at gmail) is the easiest way. Don't attempt challonge PM. If your team DOES NOT have a captain - you guys as a group will be deciding who plays, and I'll probably force whoever is the most responsible person online to be in charge of reporting scores. I will be deciding this on the day of the tournament. Regardless, if you are still in for this event, show up! I won't be doing check-in, but just a normal roll call, since there are only 16 teams. You guys are still responsible for figuring out who is on the team, and looking for whos available. If you don't have a twitch account and ability to talk in stream chat, you should probably figure that out or contact your team captain to communicate properly. Edit: Also, you do not need to really perfectly establish the playing order right this minute. I just want the challonge teams on the roster. It can be an empty team with no one added and nothing determined. I just want the team captains making teams so i can put it on the roster. Currently TWO out of the Sixteen teams have properly made teams and have them on the bracket.

it doesn't work due to too many hits before 6C (proration, etc). It's the same reason why you cant go into 2C(1) > 623A ender from the 2C > 623A > 5B > 623B route. Also I suggest not calling it the j.C > 2C combo, because it works from 5C too, which is just as applicable as a punish. 2C > 623A route maybe? Dunno. That corner combo is great - definitely better than the other route for corner. Midscreen I found a few more things that work: 1) 2A > 2A > 2C(2) > 623A > 2B > 214BB > j.236A > delay j.214A > 5A > 3C > 214BB > Orb Hits > Air Backdash j.6C - 2302 dmg (2491 if 2A > 5B) 2) 2A > 2B > 2C(2) > 623A > 2B > 214BB > j.236A > delay j.214A > delay 623B > Orb Hits > walk forward 6C - 2093 dmg 3) 5A > 2B > 2C(2) > 214BB > j.236A > delay j.214A > delay 623A > 2B > Orb Hits > 6C - 2087 4) 2A > 2B > 2C(2) > 623A > 2B > 214BB > j.236A > delay j.214A > delay 214A4C > Orb Hits > 6C - 2237 (2492 with 2A > 5B) 5) 2A > 2B > 2C(2) > 214BB > j.236A > delay j.214A > delay 623B > 623A / Dash C > 6C - 2279 / 2235 (2404 / 2351 with 2a > 5B) - credit to Vista for this route So basically I found that 2B has some gross SMP on it so if you have 2B in your string and then also try and go for 623A > 2B > 214B later, 5A > 3C wont work, hence why combo #1 has 2AA instead. You can also use 5B etc. Instead, if you do 2A > 2B, you can do combo #2, which is quite tricky but will work, and you get 6C oki off of it. The annoying thing about this route is that you need the orb right under them or else the orb will miss (in my findings). I need to investigate whether this is character specific or not yet, but I'm pretty sure it is, and is a bitch to do. Maybe adding in extra parts in the string will space it out right? Dunno. In any case, skip to combo #5 for this, since it's basically a completed version of this combo, and is probably easier lol. You can also do stuff using 623A > 2B later on to combo into your Orb, as in combo #3 - it does more damage than the 5A > 3C variant as well, but unfortunately, I couldn't get this route to work off 2A starters, so this combo should honestly only be done if you dialed into 2C so you cant confirm into 214CC OR you are doing a string that makes 214CC > 6C not combo but also one where this combo works. I couldn't find such a string, but maybe it exists. That being said, I combined the combo theory from Rion's corner combo with my own silly and hard combo from before, and it became combo #4. This combo is amazing because while combo #3 leads to 6C oki, its from a 5A starter so you can just do the much easier 214CC > 6C route to get the same knockdown. However, this combo works from 2A, even works from 2B, unlike #1, and honestly feels easier than #2. For some reason, adding in the 623A > 2B fixes the height so that 214AC(2) so it's more consistent. (Edit: Nevermind, you can omit this part and it feels about the same. I'm just better at doing it today after a day of practice compared to yesterday lol). You'll find landing that 6C to be pretty difficult, but if it looks like you won't get it, you can just do a j.6C instead on the fly. Edit2: Also, this final combo is probably character specific, as it relies on hitting them low enough with the j.214A to 214AC them solidly. It seems like smaller air hithurtboxes make this easier, as it allows the j.214A to hit lower. So far I haven't been able to confirm it on Gordeau, Merkava, or Waldstein, whereas doing it on Linne was extremely easy. Obviously, floaty characters may not work right either. On Nanase I haven't confirmed it works, but if you omit the 623A > 2B portion, it works. Edit3: Combo #4 confirmed on: Eltnum, Nanase*, Hilda, Seth, Orie, Hyde, Linne, Carmine*, Vatista, Yuzuriha*, Edit4: Confirmed some new things, will post more later. Edit5: So, I also remembered a combo Vista mentioned a while back, which is Combo #5 - in early testing I assumed this combo was like Combo #3 in that it only works from 5A starter or better, but I was actually able to confirm that this combo works from 2A > 2B. Difficulty on it seems to be character specific. Haven't explored on every character, but seems okay vs Seth or Hyde, having trouble on certain other characters. Doing 623A gives you more damage than combo #4 off of 2A > 2B, but seems a bitch to link, and loses out on damage if you do 2A > 5B. Dash C seems a bit easier, but does less damage overall. Nice thing about this route, however, is that getting the 6C is much easier than #4, provided you got the dash C / 623A link properly. The damage loss is fairly insignificant unless you want to be a perfectionist, so this route overall is also very recommended, especially if you're having trouble getting the 6C ender from #4, since you can just mash it out if you're lazy with this route. I'm out of time, so this will probably be the last edit I make on this post. Will post more later, and I still need to post my midscreen unblockable setup comparisons.

So.... after the j.214A > 214BB, you can just do 22 > 5B > j.B > air backdash > Orb Hits > j.6C, and the j.214A will connect on every character. It also does more damage and is way way easier to do (undroppable-tier). On non lolis you can also just do dash C/B most of the time too.

I forgot to actually post this, so Starwind already said some of what I said, but basically @Justice, we're not talking about 2A 5C. We all know the bnb works on Eltnum. It's simply the issue of dash C, which you only need if you do 2A into 2 hits before 214CC. Anyways, what I had written: It's even more important to note that this works off of 2A > 2/5B, meaning you do not have to single hit confirm off of the 2A. Because of this, its universally important. It's even better because you can even dial this string on block and it goes into normal 214 pressure game. If you can already single hit 2a block / hit confirm, this doesn't really matter, but if you cant, this is a pretty big deal. Randomly, this also works: 2A > 2B > 2C(2) > 214BB > delay j.214A > 214AC(1hit) > 6C > 236B oki. Pretty difficult but if you have the execution for it, it's ideal. Also, after the 3C > 214BB > air backdash j.C route, there's a few things it seems you can do: 1) Naturally fall. If you just fall, you'll land slightly minus, and near them. Chances are they might not know whether or not to press buttons, and since Seth's stuff is fast, you can probably get away with continuing pressure from this, due to the threat from the other options 2) Fastfall. If you fastfall, you end at slight advantage (+5? +7? just a guess) but you're pretty far away. Close enough to throw out a 623X or Dash C, but other than that, you'll have to dash up to them to continue pressure. 3) Meaty j.214A. This works if you let yourself fall then time a j.214A. This obviously fails against any kind of reversal, but you aren't afraid of a reversal, j.214A lets you continue pressure (214x after or something). Main other disdvantage of this is you probably wont have a chance to do a strong pressure game before the orb comes in. 4) Combo into j.214A: If you don't make the orb after j.6C, you can j.214A afterwards, and then land and orb, or do other various things if you want (214B I think works afterwards too). Gets you a bit more damage too.

crossing up with the orb only works if you are teleporting onto the same side as the orb (aka the orb was originally behind them). If the orb is on the same side you are and you tp behind them the orb can be blocked either way. it also doesn't work if they shield, because shielding gives you crossup protection. EDIT: it also tends to have crossup protection if you crossed them up while they're already blocking high (so they're walking backwards). If they crouch block there's no protection, but if they switch to high block at the right time prior to the teleport going off, there is some protection. That's obviously a disadvantage, but I've been doing this setup in matches against people who've gotten pretty used to seth and its still had its fair share of success (and low risk), so I think its still worth doing. JP seths seem to go for it sometimes too so I'm sure there's merit in it.

I agree that it should be allowed till it is proven to be problematic. It pretty much guarantees vorpal, and its important to note that since there are gaps in between each move, the shield you perform is the free version, so you're gaining a ton of meter too. They're all air blockable so you can totally just jump forward shield over and over too. Some characters have pretty decent ways to deal with it anyways. I will say however, with regards to TheArm's #4 point, is I believe if you have extra buttons set properly to 1 / 3 and toggle / mix them in rather than doing 4/6, you may be able to also DP on demand (not sure,, just speculating).

this isnt pad only fyi. I rewired one of my buttons on my stick so that it sends a left input, and I was able to reproduce it decent in matches (did a bit of ranked earlier today). Not a Vatista player but I might as well mention that as a field report >_>

In case you guys didn't catch it, there's an amazingly important combo by ma-kun early on in the vid. Basically: anything (including 2a) > 2C(2) > 214BB > j.236A > delay j.214A > 5A > 3C > 214BB > air backdash j.6C > whatever you want (Orb, A dive, fast fall, etc). This gives you some semi decent oki off of a 2a starter rather than having to convert into the air combo ender. this works off of assault starter, as well as from basically anything that leads to you hitting them airborn to 214BB. Oki options afterwards are kinda weird because you are hitting them so high with j.6C, but it's still good. I have to leave now so I cant talk much, but yeah.

that SOUNDS about right, there may be errors due to how the input display works, but that should be good enough as far as a rough estimate on landing recovery. frame data wise if people want to test, i think we ought to find out how much j.214A and j.214B are on whiff lol. I'd also personally be curious in air backdash landing recovery (even though we can whiff cancel to remove it).

it looks accurate - it matches up with vista's data and brandon's data

ahhh that document isn't supposed to be public yet but okay i guess its fine :P i was wondering why there were people peeking at it all the time

those numbers seem to check out with the various other sources, but do we have a source on whos frame data that is?

Nice work! It's not a big deal but my assumption is those tk j.214A's are actually forward, not 2147's (I guess you could do 7 if you want only 1 hit?) - don't have training mode access on me atm so I can't confirm, but when I messing with that route in the past it felt stable from forward jump rather than back. Not a big deal regardless notation wise lol.

I can confirm that this works

it's 214B~A > Command Grab that he's doing it looks like. (The A followup counter has a shield-looking effect when it triggers). It's also worth noting that the 3C is most likely a crossed up 2C input (1C), since 2C is a really good answer to Seth doing 214X~B stuff. Regardless, nice corner setup

Yeah, it's just 214B~A catching Gordeau for pressing buttons, then CS > 22 > IW. the A followup catches button pressing. It also has invincibility on it, so if you catch a DP, sometimes you'll both whiff (which is good because then you can just recover and punish). Definitely caught things like Yuzu's ABCD with it before. If you guys haven't gotten in the habit yet, I don't know what the A followup startup is yet, but I've noticed that I've gotten into the habit of holding A if I see a superflash as I'm doing a 214 move, and it tends to work out really well (switches to A followup, autograbs whatever superflash / CS thing they did) Also I haven't had time to study the proration on it so if anyone else wants to (hint hint) please feel free to. In my experience in matches (only time I've really messed around with it), CS > 2C > 214CC > 6C combo route doesnt seem to work, though it does work off of normal command grab CS. I labbed a bunch of stuff regarding the basic Dash C > 236X > EX Command Grab unblockable setup in terms of where the holes are and how different variations beat out different escape attempts, so I'll be posting that when I have time.