dragontamer

For #2, I've personally had more success with 5C than 2A. But 5C is a pretty pathetic poke as well, so its piss poor normals all around. (5C whiff means good opponents will combo you) -------- My primary mixup is throw and 2D. Throw makes them push BC a lot. 2D punishes throws with a 4k+ heatless counter-hit combo. There are other frame traps that I use, and I use Tick Throws to encourage mashy behavior from my opponents. (2A -> Tick Throw and 2A -> 5C CH -> combo, j.C -> 2B vs j.C -> j.A -> Tick Throw). I'm not afraid to use purple throws either: purple throws train your opponent to wait, making green throws more reliable in my experience. It just sucks when your opponent actually can react to everything. It sucks even more when they realize that IB + Inferno Divider mashing beats all of those mixup options.

Gimmicks? You don't know the name till you try corner Fenrir -> j.4D Oki. Funny thing, it might actually work in BBCS2 because it crosses up and is low. Lol.

If you're gonna do corner Oki you might as well do: 6C (2) -> 6C -> j.d -> d.5B -> (slight delay so opponent wakes up) -> d.6C This gives you 2 CR attacks after d.6C and one finisher, so plenty of opportunity to combo your mixup, while still taking advantage of d.6C's absurd hitstun, meatiness, and guard break. Obviously theory craft because I don't have the game yet. I don't see any reason why this wouldn't work in BBCS2. I use it in BBCS1 all the time. Most opponents don't see it coming (I never mentioned it in my video ). More seriously, I only discovered that one after I published the CR oki video. The things that made d.6C "good" (well... as good as it was gonna get) was this: Forced emergency tech -- Your opponent cannot roll or quick rise. Its tech or no tech. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. This allowed for some 2B -> 6C pickups if they stopped mashing, and guard-break shenanigans if they tech. (d.6C -> d.5a -> d.6C -> 623D Rapid -> 3C for -3 primers if you got heat). Also, d.6C still seems pretty slow in the videos I've seen. So I don't expect 5D -> d.6C to actually work. Now, if d.6A has more untechable time and still "slams down" aerial opponents on hit (like Bang's 6C), then j.d -> d.6A -> d.6C is a possible setup. But I can't really tell until we get the game.

Video proof please? It sounds too good to be true. EDIT: Nm, found it in the Video thread. Its the new combo video. WTF j.4D in the middle of corner combos ?? Awesome

Because of the proration system, the combo enders are not quite as important as the combo starters. Here's the golden question: 5D -> d.6A or 5D -> d.5C ? Both lead to d.6C (which hopefully still prorates nicely). That would make the bigger difference. d.6A clearly prorates much better than it did in BBCS1. Another note is that 22BC actually hit makoto midscreen, so the 22B and 22BC hitboxes are all much bigger now (either that, or makoto is much bigger...). Anyway, a similar combo in BBCS1 barely registers above 3.2k By theorycrafting, here's my take on the "optimal combo". 5C CH -> 5D -> 5C -> 6C -> 5D -> 6A -> 214A -> 2B -> 6C -> 22BC 214A still seems to ignore proration. d.6A is confirmed to go to 214A. With that said, the later 214A is in the combo, the bigger the ignore proration effect is. So you'd want to rack up as much proration as possible before the 214A. Of course, if 2B -> 6C -> 22BC doesn't work after all that, then the combo is for naught.

Fairly powerful 5C counter-hit combo in that makoto vs noel video. At 4180+ midscreen its a little bit stronger than 5C CH -> 3C Haida loop from BBCS1. 5C CH -> 5D -> 6A -> 6C -> 214A -> 2B -> 6C BC-> 6C -> 22BC -> 66 -> 6C -> j.D -> 6D -> 5C -> 6B -> 236D. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Pvl63iJYWM 7 minutes 30 seconds or so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Pvl63iJYWM d.5A is air unblockable. Proof at 2:33 or so. Seems like 5C is a better poking tool now as well. It looks like it has less recovery... but we should wait for some frame results / tests before we officially list that.

I was watching this: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm12996454 Here's things that I notice: * Optic Barrel is a hell of a lot faster * 5B is air-unblockable now (blue exclamation point near the 3 minute mark) * d.5C has less startup and appears to cancel into the next attack sooner as well. * Fenrir does awesome minimum damage

Loops IMO look bad. For publicity, I think its nice for loops to be removed. Competitively? Doesn't bother me at all.

Is IB nurf confirmed yet? Because that helps us a lot. Less IB -> ID spam from Ragna, and more blockstrings will be "solid on instant-block". Helps Tager a lot too, but whatever, we both need pressure buffs.

It also means that Chain Revolver Oki no longer works. Then again, it wasn't too strong to begin with, but I loved breaking primers :-( Anyway, from the looks of it, optic-barrel A is the new midscreen launcher. No need for 623D -> 66C link anymore people, we got optic barrel.

I very much agree. Except on the "2 high attacks", because Chain Revolver is not pressure at all. Sure, d.6B is a nice overhead, but your only low during Chain Revolver is lol d.6D which is as slow as Makoto's 2C but only does ~3k. Typically, your opponent really is only looking out for 6B. Unless you're talking about the 66 2D crossup on crouching opponents... which is essentially a pseudo-overhead... Anyway, CS Noel is not a rushdown character. But you need to know how to rush your opponent down. Eventually, you'll get a chance to push the offensive and you need to make as much use of it as possible. That means phishing for Throw Rejects in the corner, 66 2D pseudo-overheads, hitconfirming 5A -> 6A, hitconfirming 2B -> 6A, and so forth.

2D is also decent in this situation. And by "decent", realize that its a horrible disadvantage to be in this situation...

Well, Chain Revolver Oki prevents backroll by forcing neutral tech. They can wakeup DP however if they're paying attention. The standard Oki trick is: Bloom Trigger -> 66 -> 2B (cross under a neutral teching opponent) -> combo. 2B their Roll into 2B -> 6C -> Combo. 2B the Neutral Tech into a cross-under 2B a quick-rise into 6A -> combo. Takes a bit of practice, but its good stuff.

Both 236A and 236B can be punished with Tager's 236B into a counter-hit Sledge combo. Very nasty, I don't recommend it unless Tager is airborne. Good Tagers will punish you on Reaction 100% of the time. Remember: Tager is slow, but not the player who is playing him. Your opponent sees the game at the same speed as you. Full screen 236C is reasonably safe, but when you're magnetized Tager's 2D will catch you even at full screen. And that leads to a re-magnetized setup for Tager (ie: 623C whiff 720C or super-jump j.D whiff 720C shenanigans). Overall, be careful about optic barrel. Its situationally very useful, 236A counter-hits can lead to 66C j.D combos, and is thus a semi-useful ground-approach if you think Tager's reacting to your dash-in with a 360A. 236B Rapid gives you a decent frame advantage and enough room to get into 5A distance for your pressure / mixup game. ********** As others have stated throughout this thread... you need a good ground game. Control your distance with carefully spaced 664AB (barrier block cancel those dashes!) and never get predictable with your dash-ins or jump-ins.

I'm stuck on a pad. Tried to switch over, and I epic failed. I'm not ready to invest the months of re-training my muscles to get to a weaker level of gameplay.

If Tager is throwing pressure strings at you, you're doing something severely wrong. Instant block as much as you can (practically everything from Tager, he's pretty slow) and then react to the slowest stuff (ie: Tager's 5D and Sledge) with 5A / 5D. The only problem after that is his Command-grab tick-throws (but those are usually off of the attacks with less hitstun... like 5B -> 360B). Counter-Assault is good... against Litchi who has stupid offense and Oki. But Tager? Nah, its easy enough to punish his pressure. No reason to waste the 50 heat. I guess you can CA against Tager's 5B and 5A... but it doesn't seem realistic to react to a blocked 5A / 5B with CA. Too little hitstun and the attacks come out too fast. And I doubt Tager is in a real disadvantaged position after that anyway (he'll likely recover before you do...). So even then, its a bad idea.

Easier said than done. 5B has terrible hurtbox and all of Tager's attacks have good disjointed hitboxes. 5B has a larger hurtbox than its hitbox. Personally speaking, I think Tager has the advantage at 5B's effective distance. 5A is safer. Whiff a 6C and you'll be eating a combo into Gadget Finger from Tager. 5A is easy to hitconfirm and offers more options on block. There's a lot less guesswork involved with 5A dash-ins in the corner, despite the significantly lower damage. EDIT: Just checked: it appears that 5AAAAA will always beat backdash 360A. 5AAAA's smallest hole (even on whiff) is 5 Frames. Backdash -> 360A has a 6 frame window where it can be punished. 66C on the other hand can lose to backdash 360A (if the backdash was timed correctly) j.4D Fatal combo does more damage and is easier when Tager whiffs his throws. Failing that, j.C Counter -> Haida does more damage as well. Agreed. If you fail to guess the j.2C you get punished. 4D is a safer anti-air vs Tager. Lets not get overoptimistic here ****************** The only BBCS2 advice I can give is this... 5A 6A 2B 6A 2B 6A 6B. Hitconfirm into 2B -> 6A -> 6C -> j.D -> stuff. Tager's crouching hitbox gets hit by 6A, so learn your 6A pressure. Plus, its good practice for BBCS2 2B -> 6A reverse gatling pressure strings screw with a lot of Tagers. ****************** Anyway, my point is that a quick short-range defensive counter-based character should lose to a grappler. Then again, if Noel gets 5B Hitbox buff (CT Disjointed hitbox please), she wouldn't be a "short-range defensive character" anymore and can go ahead and kick Tager's ass

That is true. Although, I still feel my earlier advice is still a good enough heuristic for the "Beginner Mode" forums.

With the IB nurf, I'm kinda scared of Tager actually. I'm going to actually have to punish the startup of his attacks instead of IB -> 5A -> punishment. Granted, its a better game because IB -> 5A is kinda brain-dead, so I'm not really complaining. Anyway, Tager vs Noel has to be a good matchup for Tager. Grapplers need to be king of close-range combat or else Tager won't have any hope as a character. Its a necessary evil if they want this game to be reasonably balanced.

Generally speaking, 5B -> jump cancel -> air-grab.

There's your problem. You screw up your pressure and you get punished. And how do they make you screw up your pressure? Footsies, Yomi, and Blocking. Combos are purely punishment. Your opponent can only land a combo if you make a mistake: as in, you're overly aggressive or you screwed up on his pressure. But at the end of the day, how does pressure get started? Footsies.

Generally, the best strategy I've found is to blue-beat and tech the purple grabs. When you hit the blue-beat, start looking at your opponent. Weaker opponents will continue their pressure. That is when you time an air-tech so that they'll whiff something big. As you land, you get to counter their overconfidence. Against stronger opponents who see this strategy, I start to air-tech again (I don't want to give free ground Oki to them) As you get more experienced, you'll start understanding your opponent's combos and when its safe to mash. For example, I mash on Ragna's Belial Edge because its a bit tight to get that link to 5D: a tech during that time gives me a free combo. However, its safest to use techs when you know you can punish your opponent's whiff. Typically... Blue Beats don't do much damage due to how proration works in this game.

While 6B looks faster (it could have been a video encoding error however...), I don't think its fast enough to combo from 5C. Its more of a reset (if they were hit) or a blockstring (to force them to start thinking from 5C, now that there's a 2C / 6B mixup at 5C)

Blah -> 5C -> 74 I'm really liking the buffs to our gatling strings. This alone makes me happy.