dragontamer

Whats the correct reaction to 214D ?? If I jump-in, Lambda recovers in time for 2C / 6A. Sure, I can barrier block, but thats still giving the pressure game to Lambda. If I jump over it (but far away), Lambda recovers in time for 6D / 2D. Again, pressure game is to Lambda's advantage. If I block, Lambda gets a guard primer and a bajillion frame advantage. Optic Barrel and 5C seem to give Lambda the offensive. Clearly, jumping is the right option. Better Lamdas don't seem to 214D when I can super-jump over them in one go... and Instant Air Dashes don't seem like a good idea with 214D either. I guess if they 214D as close range pressure, thats their mistake and I can punish (super-jump... so I have an extra jump to attempt to bait their 6A / 2C at least) I do agree that Lambda / Noel is one of Noel's better matchups. I'd be willing to agree with 5/5... but I'm more interested in this debate / reasoning. What can Noel do when you see the 214D comming?

If you get grabbed, you didn't jump out with the right timing. Holding up will prevent meaty grabs.

Noel wants her old j.C back... the one with the hitbox that beat 214D :-(

Out of Curse mode, Arakune vs Noel is clearly in Noel's favor. In Curse mode, its heavily towards Arakune's favor (erm... one hit, you're dead in a capable Arakune's hands). Arakune just doesn't seem nearly as slippery as he used to be. I dunno, its easier to play Arakune than Litchi / Bang. I dunno if this means to bring Bang / Litchi to 3.5 / 6.5 or to bring Arakune down to 4.5/6. But Arakune is much easier to play against than Litchi / Bang / Tager. Arakune's only real tool vs Noel is j.B now. Optic Barrel C out-ranges Kune's 2D. He's still a bitch in the air, but I don't feel quite as hopeless as wtf Litchi's j.B or Bang's... anything. As good as Arakune's airgame is, he doesn't have one move that takes out both Noel's 6A and Noel's j.B like Litchi's j.B. (And 4D / 5D stopped working as soon as Litchi's figured out j.B -> land -> 5B.) Still definitely in Arakune's favor, but its definitely not as bad as Litchi. EDIT: I read some of your later posts: moving Litchi to 3.5 / 6.5 would reflect my feelings perfectly. Sounds about right actually. Jin is the most fair matchup in the game for Noel. My Taokaka matchup is lacking. Do you have any reasons for the 4/6 matchup? Valkenhayn is starting to look a bit overpowered from what I can see. Either that, or I simply don't understand his pressure yet. Maybe there are more holes in his pressure strings and I'm just not used to him yet...

I find it easier to do 6A -> j.A -> j.B -> jump cancel -> j.B -> j.C -> j.236C Hurrah! ~500 more damage. ****ing proration....

1) is how 4D works. 2) is 6A. This makes 4D very good for poor-jumpins, while 6A is better for "well spaced" jumpins. A well spaced jump in will hit your whole body (Hakumen IAD from ~3/4ths screen, the j.C will fall and hit even your feet). A poorly spaced one (Hakumen IAD from 1/2 screen) will only hit the top part of your body.

I find that better Hakumens do j.C -> (land) 5B and still hit me because 5D is so slow. 6A is a safer option IMO, because of the active-frame head invulnerability.

6A is really really good if the opponent is perfectly spaced. IE: about 3/4ths from full screen for IADs (more for Hakumen, less for others). About 2 Hakumen steps for super-jumps, and about 1 Hakumen Step for normal jumps. If they are at that distance and do the appropriate jump, 6A will beat them clean. Hell, 6A actually beats Arakune now (for almost no damage, but it at least beats him back). Outside of that, you just need to use it from the right distance now, instead of throwing it out willy-nilly. The only real options Hakumen has are Tsubaki and j.D to beat out 6A.

After traveling across this land... far and wide... what will you release from your hand? Something that is inside? Articuno, Jynx, Nidorino Beedrill... EDIT: BOOOOO. Thats what I get for doing it from memory.

Depends. It is difficult to know how much you know about the game, and thus your definition of "combo" may not match up with the definition of combo here. I'll start at the top and work my way down. 1. "Blue combos" are techable. Under the combo meter, you can see a sign whenever you could have teched as well as the hit number, so you can remember it next time. 2. "Red combos" are unescapable. Remember how the opponent started the combo, and make sure not to get in that situation again. 3. Litchi has "tech traps", where she punishes you for rolling and teching incorrectly. In general, you'll want to a neutral tech into block, and then keep blocking till Litchi screws up the pressure. Litchi has a powerful wakeup game. So, the first thing you need to do, is recognize when combos end and begin. In my experience, newbies don't actually know this! 1. If the combo numbers turn blue, you could have escaped the combo. 2. If the combo numbers reset back to 1, you could have escaped the combo, but now your opponent reset his proration so you'll take a SHITTON more damage. These are called "resets". In this game, the more hits in a combo, the less damage is done to you. IE: the 30th hit will typically do less damage than the first hit. Thus, good players setup situations in which its difficult to prevent the reset. Litchi is very strong on the opponent's wakeup for example, because she can put the stick on you as you're waking up, and then start another combo if you didn't block. Generally, there is only one way to escape Litchi's wakeup pressure, especially in the corner: neutral tech into block.

Aside from Hotaru, there aren't any FCs that are reversals. (Hotaru is pseudo-reversal, because Hakumen still needs 4 frames to jump...)

Wait, are you serious? Noel's j.4D? AKA: even if the opponent whiffs on my invincibility frames they recover in time to grab / jab me before the move hits? Its only useful for punishing Tagers who like to use 2C as an anti-air instead of 2A, even then, Tagers often recover in time if I don't j.4D low enough while falling. I guess the concept is simple: time your invincibility frames against your opponent's attack, and then counter-hit them.Unfortunately, j.4D isn't nearly fast enough to do this in practice, with 15+ frames without any invincibility before you hit the opponent... as well as the obvious startup animation, its the easiest move to poke out of on its startup. Even then, regular 4D does more damage on Fatal counter than j.4D. And it actually works defensively if you IB -> 4D because 4D is frame1 invincible. (well, not really invincible, its more like frame 1 low-profile, kinda like Noel's old 3C). So of Noel's moves, 4D is the better Fatal Counter... but its no "spam for free damage" move either. ---------------- Jayoku is easily the best. IB -> Jayoku. Just the threat of it alone means you can't be stupid in your blockstrings (normally, Hazama doesn't have a 1-frame reversal). Having the strongest reversal in the game (even with heat) means the Hazama game gets very different at 50% heat. Ragna 2C is great because its safe on block, and Taokaka 2C is good for similar reasons.

The Throw Break / Throw section needs to mention that you need to wait some amount of time before you grab someone after hitstun / blockstun. This is easily tested with say, Tager's Gadget Finger. GF -> 360B is a purple grab, even though the opponent has been out of hitstun for 5 frames. (+3 frames after GF, 8 frames to 360B startup) IIRC, CT's space was 8 frames out of blockstun. I don't know what it is in CS, but its something that could use investigating.

Anyone ever notice how easy 5B -> j.C crossup is? I thought that all of Noel's aerials were a complete nurf. But the new hitbox makes it really easy to do j.C crossups, at least on Ragna. EDIT: damn, I can't find a combo off of it. :-( Oh well, if you expect your opponent to block or something, at least you'll screw up their DP motions or whatever. But without a combo, it isn't very useful. I have to hit the top corner of Ragna's hitbox, so the later hits of j.C don't hit, and you can't combo into even 5B. You land too far away.

Because I'm not so naiive to believe that my experiences are universal. A reset working on my opponent could be as simple as I'm not playing the right opponents: maybe I'm not playing against good enough opponents. Or maybe, my opponents aren't used to the strategy, and while the strategy works on ignorant opponents, it may not work on opponents who are knowledgable about the matchup. Asking for the shared experiences of the members of this forum will take me closer to the ideal, more so than me winging it on my own. Thanks for your response. I'll keep that in mind. On a side note: the overhead is both safer and faster than the low. Noel's low options are d.6D (26 frames and +11 frames if continuing Chain Revolver) and 214A (pseudo-low at ~30 frames and unsafe like hell). The overhead is 21 frames and +13 frames if continued into Chain Revolver.. Being in chain revolver... they both have similar options on block, ie: the good opponents are buffering a reversal on you now that they realize they're in a blockstring. At least d.6B can go into d.5A and screw up some people's timing (d.6B -> d.5A is a solid blockstring on normal block, but not d.6D -> d.5A). Yes, Noel's low in Chain Revolver is as slow as Makoto's 2C. I've also done some more experimentation with the reset btw, since I made this topic. I've figured out a way to combo into Midscreen Fenrir for 1k more damage (making the reset a total of 2k more damage if its successful, instead of just 1k more damage). BTW: I do like the idea of saving the "switchup" for later, ie: the kill. Seems obvious in hindsight but I guess I always waste the "switch" early on, to get extra damage in. After that, the opponents figure out the high/low mixup and start reacting to it. Saving the high or low option for a win/loss situation should be a priority...

Because if your opponent hits BC outside of throw-state... they'll enter throw state and thus be in counter-hit state. Noel's Counter-hit 2D goes for 4.5k damage heatless midscreen, well over 5k in the corner. This makes Noel's 66 BC in the corner especially dangerous, because if you're "predicting" the throw, Noel can just do 66 2D for 5K+ corner oki (66 2D, opponent hits BC by accident, 2D counter-hits into massive combo), or... Noel can do 66 BC and go for 5k+ in the corner + oki. It essentially forces the opponent to truely react to throws. BTW: Noel's 2D is airborne, and thus invulnerable vs ground throws. I generally do this when I notice that opponents react to the 66 instead of the throw. Also, throw-rejects are fun. Its great doing purple-grabs on purpose just on Yomi and seeing that sweet sweet X mark. Option-Select BC has been severely nurfed in CS, you should experiment with punishing it. Seriously.

Another thing I noticed... The Noel REALLY takes advantage of the 6A 2B 6A blockstring, which can only be done on like... Tager and Hakumen. 6A 6B 3C and 6A (blocked) 2B (crouching opponent hit) 5C 3C show that Noel has a very character-specific... but a good mixup opportunity. Both can be Haida looped into Oki (little damage from the 2B hit... but Oki is good).

Advanced Tactics == Positioning, Safety, and so forth. You shouldn't lose to a "Masher". After all, advanced players will know how and when to mash. If your "advanced tactics" are so easily beaten by a newbie, then they aren't advanced at all. Its back to the drawing board.

You need to use more d.5A then :-)

Don't read that as an insult, read it as a challenge to you :-) There comes a point in the game where you have to learn all of the characters, just enough so that you know how to counter whatever they try to do against you. Noel is considered to be a mid/low tier character, so you'll reach that point before your friends. Anyway, keep an eye out. When does litchi use 5B? Can you read your opponent well enough to use 5D's invincibility as a punish? Or is your opponent good enough to be somewhat unpredictable? Reading your opponent in this game is of utmost importance... Litchi's Bs and Bang's As are very powerful in this game. So yes, i can imagine them shutting you down with those moves + combos off those moves. Still, there is probably more to it than that: are they air dashing? Are they running on the ground? There's lots of ways for them to start the attack, and Noel's best move depends on what they do.

Block Bang's attacks and then counter-pressure him when he gets holes in his pressure. If Litchi whiffs a B, run in and start your pressure. Block Inferno Divider and do your most powerful counter-hit combos (lots of ways to get to 5k easily on counter-hit). Surely its not "just" Litchi's 5B and Bang's 5A 3C.

There's your mistake. What are they mashing? You should never come onto a forum and say "mashing random attacks". Everyone has a strategy. What attacks are beating you? Is it Bang's 5A? When are they beating you? Is Bang using quick-rise 5A or is he using 2A / 623B on your Oki? Is Litchi beating you with j.B or 5B? Is Ragna mashing Inferno Divider? There's so many different ways an opponent can mash, I simply can't give you advice until you can tell me precisely what your opponents do. Even random mashers push certain buttons more than other buttons. You need to train yourself to see what your opponent is doing. Come back when you can describe to me your opponent's strategy precisely. Knowing your opponent is the first step of battle. Its never truely random, your opponent has a pattern. 1. Figure out your opponent's pattern. 2. Figure out a way to beat it 3. Execute your plan

My advice was ambiguous and imprecise earlier. Sorry about that. Here's a real solution: punish mashers. Figure out when and where they are mashing, and then punish them for it. 5A mash can often be beaten by 3C for example. More importantly, when rushing down the opponent, use frame-traps and counter-hit combos to severely punish your opponent's mashing. 5A -> 2C (COUNTER!!) -> 3C -> Haida or 5A -> 2C (COUNTER!) -> 5D -> combo are both useful. 2D can punish grab / counter-grab attempts with 4.3k combos easily, and over 5k in the corner with fenrir. Bait and punish. Mashing included: mashing itself is a strategy you must overcome if you want to get better. Its not enough to know how to play at a high level: you must also know how to force your opponent into the high level play.

This does happen. None of Noel's hitboxes are disjoint, while most of your opponents will have a disjoint hitbox. Basically, Noel doesn't have any "priority" on her attacks. Its something you just need to factor into your gameplay. It is possible to play Noel like that, you just need to know when and where you can poke, and how to counter-rushdown your opponents.

CT Noel's Chain revolver is so slow it isn't really a mixup. remember, 6D in that game was over 30 frames. Block high and react to lows: both of Noel's low options in CT took 30+ frames (214A and 6D). 214D was always slow, and I don't really recommend it as a crossup except at lower level play. In CS, 214D has less range. More often than not, I don't even hit with 214D, I just whiff and gently nudge the opponent away. In this case, you don't even get the chance to Rapid Cancel.