dragontamer

2D is a funny option after Hell's Fang. Beats Jab and Grab for a counter-hit. 2D CounterHit -> d.6C -> d.6D -> d.2D -> 623D -> 66C -> j.D -> d.5D -> d.6B -> (d.5B in corner) -> d.5C -> 236D for well over 4k (5k with corner fenrir). Basically, if you're gonna play the rock-paper-scissors game, might as well turn it into a 50/50 mixup for both sides. 2D beats grab and jab. 2D loses to inferno divider and blocking. Blocking beats Inferno Divider and "ties" when the opponent blocks. So you're focing the opponent to basically block after hell's fang. The correct choice is "instant-block + punish" of course. But if your reaction speed isn't good enough yet, or you're playing online and don't care about instant-blocking (stupid lag...), its a decent option. Its a bit risky because Ragna can just inferno-divider a blocked 2D and there's literally nothing you can do about it... and 2D is a terrible option on block (Ragna can do anything he wants to you...)

It works on Ragna (maybe a few others, but it doesn't work on everyone). So make sure you are training vs Ragna. Next, make sure you do the exact sequence. Do 2D -> d.6A -> d.6C -> d.5C -> jump cancel -> sj.D -> 2D -> d.6A -> d.6C -> d.5C -> jump cancel... notice: the "loop" is 5 chain revolvers in a row, so you can't mess it up. You have to do that exact sequence at the right timing.

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?9432-Chain-Revoler-Pressure-Discussion Ahem >_< Its good to compare our lists for integrity of course. d.6C -> d.5B is solid on instant-block at the sweetspot, which implies +18 (d.5B startup) + 5 (instantblock).

Work in progress: this is pretty much a copy/paste of my previous work. I need to work on trimming it down and organizing the information more logically. Please post comments / criticism. Normals Overview: Unfortunately, her normals are among the weakest in the cast. Still, the normal game is the most fundamental part of Noel, because they're fast and often are Noel's safest options against your opponent. Noel's range is very poor, so you'll have to learn various ways of getting in. Vary your dash-ins and jump-ins, don't get predictable. You can attempt to play the long-range poking game with 5C and 5B, but overall, Noel isn't very good at zoning and poking. Noel's average damage is going to be poor. She only has situational combos if you use 5B, 5C or 2C. Capitalize on crouching and counter-hit states: these is one of the few times 5B / 5C / 2C will actually combo. Otherwise, you'll need to rely on 5A and 2B range if you want to actually want to get a decent combo into Oki. Even then, these combos won't get you more than ~2.4k damage. Using the riskier 3C can net you more damage, but good players can block on reaction and then punish you heavily. Noel's High/Low mixup is very poor, and you won't be getting much damage off of that. Instead, focus on training your opponent into making stupid counter-hit mistakes. Use a predictable throw-pattern... and then punish with a frame trap into a counter-hit. For example, train your opponent to throw-break after 66 2A. Then, when you are sure they are trained to throw-break, use 66 2A -> 5C / 2C Counter! -> 3C/5D -> combo. Another one is 5A/2A -> 66 -> Throw. When you're sure the opponent is trained, use 2D, which cannot be ground thrown after frame 4, into a 2D counter-hit combo. In the corner, you'll get the most damage off of throws. Instead of using a counter-hit, take advantage of the throw-reject system. Use one more 5A or 2A than usual, and then use a purple grab. If they are trained, they'll hit throw too early, and you'll get a throw-reject on the corner for over 5k damage. 5A -- Very good but very short range poke. You've got a lot of options from a blocked 5A, especially if you are dashing in. 66 5A -> tickthrow (practice your timing so that you only make a green throw), 5A -> 2B -> 6A -> 6C. Hitconfirms to 6A -> 6C. Without dashing in, the 6C will sometimes whiff after 6A, especially after 5A -> 2B -> 6A. You can also jump cancel this move into a j.D or j.C crossup. Your frametrap from here is 2C. Do note, if your opponent instant-blocks, you can tick-throw them sooner than usual. 2A -- A slower poke with less blockstun. You can use the less blockstun to your advantage however. Because of the less blockstun, you can get a green throw off of 2A sooner than off of any other attack. This is the only attack that frame traps to 5C, and it also frametraps to 2C decently. Its a relatively safe move to throw out, and has decent range. However, it is one of thse slower pokes in the game. Don't expect to win vs Bang's 5A, or other faster pokes. 6A -- Noel's Anti-Air Normal. This whiffs on most crouching opponents. Learn the "sweet spot" of 6A: you need to position yourself correctly against your opponents jump-ins. This attack is not very safe on whiff, so missing the opponent's jump in will get you puinshed. You are head-invulnerable during the active frames of this attack, which means you'll beat most air-to-ground attacks clean when positioned correctly. 6A -> 5C -> j.B -> jump cancel -> j.B -> j.C -> j.236C works on most jump ins. 6A -> 6C ->j.D -> Chain Revolver combo does more damage and lands Oki... but it doesn't work on all jump-ins. 5B -- Noel's Midrange poke option. You don't have very many combo opportunities off of this attack on a standing opponent. Standing Opponent Counter-Hits go to 3C. Crouching opponents can be comboed into 5B -> 5C -> 2C -> 3C. On block, you can jump back in and try to do more 5A pressure. Frametrap to 2C. 2B -- Noel's low poke. On a standing opponent, you can combo into 2B -> 6A -> 6C if you dashed in. Frametraps to 2C. If you can get the timing down, this is Noel's best Oki option: 2B punishes both forward and backward rolls. Dash 2B slides under neutral techs and emergency rolls for a crossunder. 2B punishes quickrises and finally, if your opponent decides to just not wakeup... you can pickup your opponent off the ground into a combo. 6B -- Noel's only normal overhead. Despite it being slow, if you can train your opponent to always block low, you can get them with this attack. Its also Noel's meatiest attack, so its decent on your opponent's wakeup. On hit, it forces your opponent to crouch, giving you a nice combo into 3C. 5C -- A long range poke. On counterhit, you have 3C and 5D as combos. 3C can do more damage with the Haida loop. 5D is easier to combo with. 2C -- A relatively safe way to end blockstrings with +1 frame advantage. You have 3C as a combo on crouching and counter-hit opponents. Pay attention to the 2nd hit: if your opponent was crouching, the 2nd hit will combo into 3C. 2C -> Rapid -> 66 -> 6A -> 6C -> combo will get you over 3k damage, but requires 50% heat. Also, 2C is a good frame trap from 5A, 5B, 2A, and 2B. Train your opponent to mash, and you can punish with 2C frametraps into 3C. 6C -- A short-range attack. Counter-hits to 3C and 5D. Very fast, but has a long recovery. Very punishable on whiff. This is a very meaty attack, so 66 6C can punish most back-dashes into 66C (airborne / backdashing opponent) -> j.D -> combo. 3C -- Noel's highest damage combos are off of this attack. With the Haida loop, you can approach 5k damage off of clean hits. Unfortunately, only 6B combos into 3C naturally, otherwise... your opponent needs to be in either counter-hit or crouching state to get hit by 3C. 3C does guard-crush on block, but it is very unsafe at -18 frames. j.A -- Fastest Aerial. Decent Jumpin, but punishable when you land because it doesn't have much blockstun. Tickthrows very easily and hits overhead. j.B -- Decent Air-to-Air and Air-To-Ground option. Hits overhead, and combos into 6A on standing opponent, and 5C -> 3C on crouching opponent. j.C -- Large amount of blockstun. Good for keeping pressure on your opponent, but opponents can block low. A decent Oki option: punishes rolls and quick-rise. Canceling into landing + block can make you safe vs Inferno Divider and other reversals. If you get predictable, an instant-blocking opponent can punish you. Chain Revolver Overview Chain Revolver (abbreviated CR) strings have a starter, up to four followups in a row, and then a finisher if desired. Starters are 4D, 5D, 6D, 2D, j.D, and j.4D. Followups can be d.5A, d.6A, d.5B, d.6B, d.5C, d.6C, d.5D, d.4D, d.6D and d.2D. Finishers can be 236D, 214D, 623D, and any special attack such as 236A, 214A, and even 632146D. You can continue attacks even on whiff. First thing you need to know to use CR effectively: when in CR, Noel cannot block until she reloads her guns or finishes her attacks. Innately, this makes every single CR attack a risky option. Opponents can always position themselves to punish your CR. On the other hand, every single CR starter has some form of limited invincibility. With careful selection and timing, you can use these invincibility frames and counter-attack through your opponents offense. In general, CR is a decent defensive measure. Counter-hit 4D leads to almost 5000 damage combos, and Counter-hit 5D leads to about 4.5k damage combos. However, if your opponent predicts the CR, they can punish it. Note: when comboing with CR, keep track of which attacks you have used. Noel suffers a damage penalty whenever she repeats a CR attack in a combo. For example, d.5A -> d.6A -> d.5A -> d.6A -> 236D barely does any damage at all, because you get a penalty from the 2nd d.5A and another penalty from the d.6A. Also note, d.5D and 5D are different attacks. 5D is the CR Starter, while d.5D is attack used while inside of Chain Revolver. d.5D is faster, but leads to weaker combos. It also has no invincibility. 5D on the other hand is slower, has full invincibility in the middle, and leads to massive combos. These two attacks are considered different when applying the same-move proration penalty, so feel free to use both 5D and d.5D in a combo. Another Note: in every Chain Revolver attack, Noel loses invincibility before she hits the opponent, so be sure to time your invincibility carefully. This is unlike Ragna's Inferno Divider or Jin's 623C. You cannot use these attacks like Dragon Punches. Instead, they're more comparable to Bang's Guard Point attacks, without the hitstop. Generally, an opponent who mashes 5A 5A 5A 5A will beat you. Instead, focus on countering attacks which leave your opponent open if they miss you. 5D -- Attack invincibility starting at frame 5. Note: you can still be thrown out of 5D. This is an effective counter-attack when you learn to instant-block your opponents blockstrings. You can also punish slow attacks on reaction. For example, Ragna's Dead Spike, Tager's Sledge, Jin's 6D (Aka: Ice Fart) can be punished on reaction. 4D -- Upper-Body invincible from frame 1. Causes a fatal counter-hits. This move beats "horizonal" attacks, such as Ragna's 5B and Litchi's j.B. However, attacks that hit low, such as Ragna's 6B and Makoto's j.CC can still beat 4D. Overall, 4D can be used as an effective anti-air against certain characters. 4D practically beats all air-dash ins as well. 6D -- Upper Body invincible from frame 5 and low profile. Hits low. 2D -- Lower Body invincible from frame 1. You cannot be ground-thrown after frame 5: you are airborne so you have to be air-thrown. It has a very good hitbox that can be somewhat used as a very slow anti-air. You have a major frame-disadvantage on block however, all opponents can poke you out of any followup except for 623D, which is very unsafe. So don't use this in a blockstring unless you are 100% sure you will hit. j.D -- It has an interesting hitbox that can beat out many attacks that are used as an anti-air, such as Mirror Match 6A, Tager's 2A and so forth. This is very unsafe on block however, so I don't recommend it to be used very often. Experiment in training mode before using it like this however, its tricky to use its invincibility frames. Often, you have to jump higher than usual, so an opponent who knows the trick will notice you. Another use of it is as a crossup from super-jump 5A and 5B. The most useful trick with j.D is using it very low, so that j.D never comes out. This is called a j.D cancel. This allows you to use any drive attack while landing. While I disagree with this video... here's a good demonstration of the j.D cancel. Note, this video was for an older version of BlazBlue, but the j.D cancel still works in BB:CS. j.4D -- With a 4.5k Fatal Counter combo, invincibility frames and guard break, you'd expect this move to be good. But it isn't. Thats all there is to it, really. Its just too slow, the invincibility doesn't last long enough, and while its the 2nd safest drives on block... its still unsafe on block. Its good for trolling newbies and other people who don't know how to punish however. d.5A -- This is the 2nd fastest drive, clocking in at 13 frames of startup. Its so fast that using this move after some drives is actually a legitimate blockstring. Unfortunately, a blocked d.5A is unsafe. Inside of a combo, there is little reason to use this attack because it does little damage and prorates poorly. It does combo on standing opponents from j.D however. In a blockstring, you can sometimes screw up the timing of your opponents reversal with this attack. d.6A -- The 4th fastest drive at 18 frames. On Standing Opponnents, every drive combos into d.6A, and d.6A combos into d.6C. This attack also offers a lot of blockstun. Still unsafe on block, but you don't have many options when you're stuck in Chain Revolver. d.5B -- The 3rd fastest drive at 17 frames. While a poor attack in a combo, its CR's better option on block because its fast, pushes the opponent away and gives a lot of blockstun. d.6B -- This attack must be blocked high. With 21 frames of startup, this is Noel's fastest overhead. Practice j.D canceling into this attack. In my experience, this attack is the easiest way to set up a juggled opponent into Fenrir (632146D). d.5C -- While a poor option on block, this attack is great for setups and combos. On hit, you can jump-cancel and continue your combos. It has alot of untechable time, and if the opponent is getting juggled, this attack can often combo into your astral. d.6C -- This is one of Noel's slowest attacks, but it offers the largest amount of blockstun of all of Noel's attacks and guardcrushes the opponent. Furthermore, it is one of the most powerful attacks to start a combo, and one of the best attacks to combo into due to its high damage and great proration. The opponent can almost always jump, jab, or even counter-grab his way out of the startup of d.6C however, so don't be predictable with this attack. Its good if your opponent is sitting around blocking everything, but be weary of more active opponents. If a stronger opponent blocks this attack... be sure to hit them in the sweetspot, so that you can safely use d.5B and push them away on block. Practically all decent opponents will instant-block this. 236D -- Bloom Trigger. This attack pushes the opponent away on block, but an instant-blocking opponent can punish you afterwards. 214D -- Assault Through. This attack crosses up the opponent and has a huge amount of full invincibility frames near the startup... you are immune to even grabs during this time. However, every opponent worth his salt will grab you out of this attack when your invincibility ends. 623D -- Spring Raid. Noel's fastest attack from Chain Revolver. Great hitbox, guard crushes the opponent but extremely unsafe on block. If your opponent is low on primers, and he's blocking d.6C... you can use 623D and crush one more guard primer.

This may be confusing to some of you, who aren't in the workforce yet. (BTW: Spirit Juice seems to understand this, so I'm just elaborating his point) But even if you are an employee, you can't speak on behalf of the company. If Aksys or Zen United Medals are given out, we'll have to be very careful to only give them out to those who are authorized to speak for the company. It would be better if we waited for Aksys or Zen United to ask for a medal. (or maybe, we can suggest it to them, but we shouldn't create the medal until they agree with it)

Does this look like a trophy to anyone? >_< The medal is there for a side-by-side comparison. Actually, the medal looks better, lol. Icon design, ftl :-(

Litchi vs Noel is worse than Bang vs Noel. They're both terrible, but I have more trouble vs Litchis. Bang jumps slower and doesn't really have an answer to Noel's frame traps aside from blocking. Granted, a good bang can just block the whole time, but Litchi simply has more options and more range... and her back-jumping gets annoying (harder to frame trap) Maybe its my style (I focus on a lot of 5A -> Frame Trap, 5A -> tick throw, 5A -> 2A -> Frame Trap and 5A -> 2A -> Tick Throws), but Litchi beats all of those with a brain-dead 623D (and 5A -> Block lets litchi escape if she's holding back-jump). Bang has to actually play me at that game. Its even easier to play vs Bang because he doesn't have too many anti-air options: j.C -> 66 Throw / 5A / Throw Reject shinanigans lets me get in on Bang... and Noel can easily react with 2B -> 2C -> 3C -> Haida if Bang starts spamming 2D. (which loses to throw anyway) Litchi also crouches under mid-range 5B for Noel. So Noel has even fewer options vs mid-range Litchi. Anyway, 3.5 / 6.5 for Noel / Litchi, and 4.0 / 6.0 for Noel/Bang IMO.

I'm surprised you guys moved forward on this. I thought the idea was getting shot down. Anyway, good luck on the implementation. This is where all of the issues are actually going to be ironed out >_<. I've sent a message to the Admin of Smogon for the name of the badge system mod. I'll post it here if he responds.

If it didn't gatling, then it would be a 9-frame hole in between every 2A (static difference -1 + 8 startup frames). However, it is easily tested in training mode that there is a 0-frame hole on normal block.

Clarification on Noel's Gatling again: 6B -> 6C gatling is only on hit. On block, you can only do 6B -> 3C gatling. I "feel" like 2B -> 2B is a gatling only on hit... but I'll double-check that later. Another mistake: 2A gatlings into 2A (on block or hit)

Mistake on Noel's Revolver action: Noel's j.A gatlings into itself.

First, Thank you for taking the time to post this Spirit Juice. It appears that I agree with where you want this site to go as well as how the community should act. Where I disagree is your implementation strategy. (which forgive me if I've misinterpreted... but it appears that you want to continue down the current path that Dustloop is going. No rule or system changes). IMO, the biggest problem facing Dustloop right now is the barrier to entry. Not to play the game, but honestly to attempt to make a good post and be a productive member of Dustloop. It is difficult to see how you're supposed to act, and it is difficult to see which posters are the ones you should be listening to. As such, the smarter posters probably will never post: it will take too much effort for them to figure out the culture here. The less intelligent ones will post, get trolled and made an example out of, and then leave the site. This is not sustainable. True, it is noble to expect a community to grow on its own. But a community grows best when its leaders nurture it. After all, that is precisely what infractions and banning are for: taking out the weeds in the community so that the productive members can grow. After all, that is how the mod team currently takes care of this community. And I also agree with you, this powerful tool must only be used in the most extreme of circumstances. The other tool available to you is the creation of new moderators. This is also an extreme tool and can only be used in similar (but positive) circumstances: when a member is extremely trusted. (probably requires off-line interaction) This does NOT mean that all tools will have extreme consequences. And similarly, it does NOT mean that using a tool often will have negative consequences. What I propose is to give moderators a weaker tool, the "infraction" to the "banhammer". The "badge system" is the infraction analogue to "promotion to moderator". I disagree with your conclusion, although it appears the rest of your reasoning is sound. http://stackoverflow.com/ My first example website when I brought the badge system up. Do people care about silly "trophies" and "reputation"? Unfortunately... yes. However, people are more helpful under these circumstances. Visit any of the "stackexchange" Q&A sites, and they're all pretty good quality, despite a good number of people caring only about reputation. The system is good because it encourages assholes to act like civilized, decent people... because only civilized people get the reputation points. Similarly, people will be encouraged to make higher-quality posts if they do want the elusive badges. Especially if "Not being an idiot" is a requirement for the badge.

I'd prefer not to use specific people like this btw in the future. Its... arrogant, to be talking of individuals in this manner. For all future posts, I'd prefer to refer to someone as the "Generic Idiot". If it means Blade to you, then sure, substitute it in your head. But I'll use the Generic Idiot from now on. The problem with Generic Idiots are two-fold: 1. They says something stupid. 2. People rag on him for 5 straight pages and forget about the topic on hand. Idiot badges will encourage #2, and it won't prevent #1. Idiots will always be idiots. They say stupid things because they don't know any better. On the other hand, giving people even more ammo to do #2 is a bad idea. I'd say it'd make BBG even worse of a shithole than it is now. Then comes the shitfest "Why did I get an idiot badge?" topics. People will blame the moderation team for handing out idiot badges. On the other hand, the "Why didn't I get a cool guy badge" topics are laughably ignorable and harmless. People will call those people idiots and get on with their life.

Blade backs off and doesn't derail threads if enough people tell him the ideas he proposes are stupid. I don't think he's a problem to the forums or a "threat to the newbies". Which I think is a bullshit reason BTW. Newbies can tell the difference between a terrible argument and a decent argument. On the other hand, they need help distinguishing between good arguments from a pro and good arguments from a scrub. Anyway, it goes back to the reason why I proposed badges in the first place. Positive reinforcement is a stronger method of controlling people than negative reinforcement and/or punishment. Its a proven psychological fact. Making "negative" badges completely goes against the foundational and scientific basis for the proposal.

If someone is spreading so much information that: 1. The Moderators notice it 2. Is so stupid that he won't stop spreading misinformation (despite other people telling him he's stupid) 3. Deserves a marker next to his name to "protect the newbies" Then why the hell isn't he banned? ******** Pretty much, you're gonna have to describe someone who deserves an idiot badge but doesn't deserve to be infracted / banned.

Why give idiots badges? Why not just infract / ban them? The badge system will provide moderators a tool that they don't currently have. Plus, I'd imagine that banning someone would be far more effective if you wanted to shut someone up.

The amount of trust you need to give someone for a "Knows wtf he's talking about" badge is far less than the amount of trust you need to give to a new moderator. Furthermore, a moderator is expected to keep the forum moving smoothly. A "Knows WTF he's talking about badge" only requires that poster to make comments that are correct. I'd say, even a small step like this would be a large step forward. Ideally, I'd like to see more contributions and projects to take place on this forum... (Smogon manages to publish a monthly web magazine filled with strategies and statistics). Maybe its a bit too much to ask from Dustloop at this point... but I think laying a good foundation for this site (by recognizing contributing posters) can only be a good thing. From this discussion, I think we all can agree on the "Knows what the fuck he's talking about" badge at least.

Takes 4 frames to enter low profile now. 3C's low profile is noticably slower in BBCS.

The mods don't need to reward everyone. They just need to badge the guys who have more important things to say than arguing basic gameplay concepts against scrubs. If you don't like the idea of a merit system, then see it as a "shut up the scrubs who disagree" badge system. And again with basic psychology... but people can only keep 7 +/- 2 things in their head at a time. So no more than 7 badges. Keep the system simple, or else people won't understand it. The fewer badges the better.

Positive reinforcement is used everywhere. From the military (military badges, congressional medals of honor), to sports (trophies, Player of the Year), to companies. The difference between "Nursery with gold stickers" and "Congressional Medal of Honor" is the right implementation of the positive reinforcement system. After all, you don't get any money from a Congressional Medal of Honor either. And everyone should be striving to go "above and beyond the call of duty". If the badges are given out like candy or gold stickers in a nursery, then of course it doesn't work. But if the moderation team strives to create a meaning behind the badge, then it will hold some power.

But a mother claps for her kids when they do well at school, win in sports, etc. etc. The moderation team's job is to foster a helpful community. And unfortunately, that means the moderation team needs to play the role of the parent. Any moderator who gives out infractions should be aware of this phenomenon. They're probably used to parenting us. (Isn't that right papa juice?)

Its a public acknowledgment from the mod team demonstrating that you're worth listening to. Yes, winning a major tournament is good grounds for getting a badge.

Gotta Catch `em all.

I don't deny it. It will happen. Some people are that arrogant. It happened in Smogon, and it probably will happen here. So the question is: would you rather have assholes trolling and flaming each other, or assholes flaming the mod team for not giving them a 10x10 pixel image next to their name? One of these problems is ignorable, while the other problem is not. Plus, all of that complaining can be thrown into a thread, outside of the general discussion forums. Just make an "Official Badge Nominations thread" where that shitstorm happens and infract anyone who discusses badges outside of that thread.

Because people don't know that they're supposed to be contributing and helping others. The sorry state of BBG is a constant flame / troll fest. You can't teach a dog with pure punishment. You can't teach a community with only infractions. You clearly haven't been to Smogon. They've managed to distinguish themselves as a premier competitive community, and quite frankly, Dustloop has a lot to learn from them. http://www.smogon.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=144 Look at all of the non-stickied topics. You may not know competitive Pokemon strategy, but the entire first page is filled with indepth analysis of various Pokemon, attacks, and metagame discussions. Even from people without badges. The Smogon admins have fostered a mature competitive community. Granted, Smogon has numerous advantages. For one: an expert player can just issue a challenge over the internet and give a beat-down to any n00b who thinks he's the shit. Theorycrafting is discouraged and "stupid shit" is only tolerated if you have the battle-logs to prove your strategy. Dustloop doesn't have any of that, because expert play cannot be done online.