dragontamer

Its a -4 or -3 frame hole. 2C isn't very meaty and 5C is very quick, so its not going to be a frame-trap on normal block. On instant block however, there's a 1 / 2 frame hole. On the other hand, Instant-block has been nurfed in Loketest 5 so its likely that the blockstring is solid.

Wait, do we still have the 2C -> 5C reverse gatling? So... 5A -> 6A -> 5B -> 2B -> 6A -> 5B -> 2C -> 5C -> 6B -> 3C is a valid blockstring now?

Fuzzy low is soooo good. 2C (1) -> 2C (2) -> !!! crouching state!! -> 3C :-)

I'm under the impression that 5C -> 2C is not a frame-trap at all, but is solid under normal block. Under instant-blocking, it is a frame trap... but under normal block it is something IMO better. Frame traps can be punished by Reversal Supers and Mashing Hakumen Counters. 5C -> 2C under normal block MUST be blocked correctly. Its solid, your opponent cannot do anything. It will still beat people who jump (can't hold up and down at the same time), but it won't counter-hit people who mash 4AAAAA or 4BC BC BC BC.

Haida loop isn't the end-all be all. The point of the loop is damage and Oki, not to do a haida loop for the hell of it. If Drives have similar damage and proration in BBCS2, then there will be little reason to do a Haida loop in BBCS2. Its already pretty borderline in BBCS1. 22B has a damage / proration ratio of 6625 (ie: if you did an infinite-hit combo with 22BBBBBBB, it would do 6625 damage). On the other hand, most of Noel's Drives have damage/proration ratios of 5000+. 4D and d.4D has 8750, 2D and d.2D has 8750, and 6D / d.6D has 6545. Same Move proration is somewhat negated by the fact that we've learned to do combos with every single drive attack. The haida loop itself doesn't even have a damage proration ratio of 6625, because 66C (hit 1) is the weakest link with a ratio of 4090. All together, 22B 22BC 66C has a damage/proration ratio of closer to ~6000. Basically, Noel's Drives have such good proration / damage, any long drive combo should do high damage anyway. If the Haida loop is nurfed, then there simply won't be a reason to use it. We'll have easier combos that do more damage.

d.5C -> jump cancel doesn't work in BBCS2 apparently.

I thought 623D -> 66C doesn't work in BBCS2 ? I'm working under that assumption. EDIT: and I'm just being silly... just thinking about BBCS2-style combos in BBCS1 to kinda predict how Noel will play without Haida, 623D 66C link and similar.

The only thing I can't think of for BBCS2 is midscreen clean 5D on crouching opponent. (On standing opponent, you can combo into 214A) The best I can do is 5D -> d.6A -> d.6C -> 236D Rapid -> 66C -> j.D -> d.6D -> stuff. But that requires heat... But every other combo (Haida-less 3C, midscreen 5D, etc. etc.) has an adequate replacement (ie: similar damage + Oki. Maybe ~10% less damage or so, but you get the Oki and a reasonable amount of damage...) ------------- EDIT: wait, what? We got good news for Noel? Thats it, I'm switching characters. I need my low tier news ftw.

You need to make sure the opponent is low enough. Also, practice against all of the characters. I'm pretty sure Arakune will have a different timing than Ragna. The key is the delay between 22C -> 66C. If it helps, try 22C -> 66C -> 236A -> 66C -> 5D. It should lower the opponent by one more notch.

That is true. Bang can always escape safely as long as he remains focused on escaping. If he does something like 6D (A), and then Noel does d.6C (Guard Pointed) -> d.2D (Counter) -> d.6C -> 623D -> stuff for a good deal of damage. Bang's ideal move is 6D ©, just teleport across the screen. But this is not a punish, its just an escape. So its good to throw out chain-revolver Oki at your opponent. If he knows how to escape... you aren't punished... so might as well abuse the strategy I find that hard to believe. Noel doesn't have +Frames. She never does

Bang is a special case. Drive suddenly becomes a viable strategy because Ashura doesn't have startup invincibility and Daifunka / Steel Rain can be reaction -> Assault Through to get away from it. You have something like 20 frames AFTER the super freeze before Daifunka hits, and ~40 frames for Steel Rain. Plenty of time to whiff with any of your D attacks and then dodge with assault through. Just pay attention, you can't afford to whiff twice. But say 5D -> (Daifunka) -> d.6D (whiff) -> 214D (Safely Dodges) always works. The only attack it doesn't work on is lol d.6C for obvious reasons. You just gotta know your frame traps to punish his 5A and 2D mashing (or really, just throw d.6D at him). That said, good Bangs will throw you during the 5D startup. So I've never figured out how to "enter" chain revolver pressure safely (outside of Chain Revolver Oki: which is also Daifunka proof). EDIT: Maybe "viable" is too strong of a word, because there's almost no way to safely land 5D to start chain revolver pressure. But on blocked chain revolver Oki, I do believe Noel captures a temporary advantage over Bang. -------- I'm pretty sure Carl can't do Gear Super during a frame trap (ie: d.6A or d.5B), because d.6A recovers in time to run away with Assault Through.

I agree with the others. 5D -> Reload is awesome if you are properly spaced. Noel takes a massive step back: so much so that you can bait Inferno Dividers with 5D -> Reload. (well... you gotta hit them with the tip of 5D, but its definitely worth it when you pull it off. Unfortunately, I don't think that the better Ragnas are gonna fall for it). Aside from that, here's your options: 1. 5D -> d.5A -- Solid on normal block. Unfortunately, its a dead end after d.5A. If you're too close to "step back", its a decent option to try and screw up the timing of your opponent's reversal. 5D -> d.5A -> (delay) -> 623D if you wanna go "all in" with "screw up your opponent's reversal timing and follow it up with a frame-trap" strategy. 2. 5D -> d.5B -> 4 frame hole on normal block. So they can't jab you out of it on normal block. d.5B has a lot of blockstun as well, so it leaves some options. d.5B -> d.6A -> d.5B is a decent pressure string against people without reversals. Reversals completely screw you however. 3. Assault Through -> If you're gonna get hit anyway, might as well throw something out there. >_< 4. 5D -> 623D -> Rapid -- Hey, if you're gonna rapid to get out of there, you might as well take a primer while you're at it. 5D -> 623D is solid even on instant block. Obviously, very painful if you don't have heat. Really, I suggest only using 5D when your opponent is gonna get hit. I don't suggest it as pressure at all. I mean, aside from option 4, all of the above can be defeated by instant-blocking -> Reversal.

Sounds like Pad vs Stick is because Stick has better parts. I can believe that: there's no customization market for pads. Still, in my limited experience with a Stick, it definitely takes more than 2 weeks to get good with a stick. Thats all I had stomach for so I'm sticking with Pad. And when it took me ~2 or 3 days to do Noel's 66C BC loop on a Pad, but it took me weeks just to learn how to dash consistantly on a stick, it became obvious which kind of controller my fingers prefered >_<. That said, I plan to start experimenting with other pads. PS3 and XBox aren't the only guys in town. We got various Logitech models, Thrustmaster, and even older stuff like Microsoft SideWinder (made in the era of Fighters, so Sidewinder actually has 6 buttons. Instead of today's era of FPS, where everything is dual analog...) And if I plan on spending $90+ on a pad (that I probably will have to mod to work on the PS3...): Imagine me walking into a tournament with that baby. Seriously, wtf is that? Does Intel even make other gamepads?

On standing opponents, your low is 66 2B -> 6A -> 6C is a combo into Oki. With heat, 2C -> RC -> 66A is your ~3k damage into Oki. Sure, you can play the psychic 5D game, but I find that I lose more often than not with that. Its good to beat back predictable hyper-offensive rushes, but eventually your opponent will become cautious while approaching you. Thats when you can just do a dash-in and attempt to get into 5A range. A blocked 66 5A offers you a ton of opportunities: 5A -> 2B -> 6A -> 6C -> blah (Low into combo on standing opponents) 5A -> 2B -> 2C -> 3C -> blah (low into combo on crouching opponents) 5A -> Tick Throw (force your opponent to push buttons) 5A -> 5A -> Purple Throw (Play Psychic Yomi: throw-reject bait if your opponent throw-breaked at 5A) 5A -> 2C CH (Your opponent hates tick throws and starts pushing buttons. 2C counter-hits into 3C Haida loop or 5D combos) 5A -> sjc -> j.D Crossup (slow, but people forget that Noel has a potential crossup. Properly spaced, you can punish some opponent's anti-airs with this.) 5A -> 6B (Overhead) 5A -> 2A -> Tick Throw 5A -> 2A -> 5C Counter-hit 5A -> 5A -> 5A (Solid Blockstring, screw up the timing of your opponent's reversals, even if they are instant blocking. Use lows: reversals require your opponent to let go of the "down" button (360 for Tager, or 623 for DPs). Using 2B while they're buffering will often leave them crouching into 2B -> 2C -> 3C -> Haida loop ) 5A -> Block (Reversal Bait) 5A -> 66 2D (Pseudo-Overhead. Crosses up on crouching opponents. Also punishes throws for ~4k damage) 5A -> 66 5A (Dash back in, "loop" to more 5A pressure) -------------- In the corner, those throws will land 4k heatless damage and ~53 Heat. Fenrir will turn that into 5k damage with no heat gained. Those frame traps go for almost 4k with the haida loop. Outside of the corner, you can go into a Drive Combo with the 623D -> 66C link, which typically turns into corner Oki (it carries the opponent pretty far) The difficulty is getting into 5A range. Learn your ground approach (66 4+Barrier), and your air approaches (single jump, super-jump, double-jump, Air Dash and Instant Air Dash).

Its okay to be cocky. You won't get infracted for being cocky and correct. I'm fine with that. But shouldn't medals be given out to the ideal citizens? If Dustloop wants arrogant cocky fucks as the "ideal citizen", then its fine. Its whatever the mods want as the ideal. It is your community to shape afterall.

When the cocky fuck decides to stop being a cocky fuck, then he gets a badge. Whats wrong with that?

You can always get 2C fatal countered while landing from j.d :-)

j.4D Fatal Counter. If you're in the air and you see the 720C flash or the 360A whiff, you can just j.4D and punish like mad. Well, if you're low enough at least. I prefer the j.C -> 6A, because that isn't height dependant at all. Anyway, j.4D -> d.6C -> d.6D -> d.2D -> blah blah blah is nice and standard, but its obsolete. I do believe the 5k heatless is like j.4D Fatal -> d.6C -> d.2D -> d.5D -> d.5C -> 2147A -> 2B -> 6C -> 22C -> more stuff... I don't do it because j.4D fatal counters are rare as hell. If I do land one, I just do the standard stuff that I know >_<. </me being lazy> I can agree with this. 24 frame overhead is punishable. I'm pretty sure my opponents react to it on wakeup. Landing j.C is also possible if you can get the timing down. j.C -> land -> block. As long as you do it low enough, j.C will cancel into block before their reversal comes out. Plus, as a meaty, it will beat out most anti-airs (which aren't startup invincible). I find that the 2B crossunder trick helps prevent those reversals, because you screw up their commands. (623 turns into 421 and all of a sudden their DP turns into 2C or 2D or something silly). Plus, you get to crossunder them and do a pseudo-50/50. You can punish rolls with 2B -> 6C, and neutral tech goes into 50/50 crossunder. Definitely a good trick to learn.

Its just a bad matchup, especially if your opponent can IB 720C you. Lets say you do 2b: oops, -2 frame means IB + 720C means he can punish you if you don't gatling. Obviously, IB -> 720C means frametraps don't work either (720C punishes 6A, 5C or 2C after instant-block). Its the same exact deal. Any form of pressure vs Tager is a deathtrap. But its necessary, because eventually you need to do something to hit your opponent. You're not going to win zoning Tager (lol disjointed hitboxes on Tager), and you're not going to win sitting on the other side of the screen (erm... optic barrel for 650 damage?). It just means you'll need to be smart about your pressure. The best thing is to change up your timing. Weaker Tagers are looking for a good time to buffer that 720C, and stronger players are waiting for that "obvious hit" that they can pull their IB -> 720C. Don't end your blockstrings the same way. ------------ Anyway, 2D is your "anti-720 mash" defense. A clean 2D on your opponent's 360A or 720C should net you 4k+ damage heatless, and 5k+ damage if you end with Fenrir. This evens the odds on the wtf 720C game, but 2D is the most punishable drive Noel has, so you can't rely on it. Plus, sledge beats 2D. If you can jump cancel (5A, 2A, or 5B), then jump cancel forward on 360 / 720C heavy opponents. Jump Cancel 360 whiff / 720C whiff -> j.4D for easy 4k ~ 5k damage heatless. Or j.C CH -> 6A for even easier 3k+ damage. Watch out for Atomic Collider of course >_< Anyway, you have to play risky, because you will lose the zone and poke game.

6B is only -4 frames, which means it needs to be instant-blocked if your opponent is going to punish you. 360A is too slow to punish IBed 6B, so you can just jump or backdash. If your opponent doesn't IB, then you can just hold block after a blocked 6B.

Coma for BB but not for GG? He has a nice Millia as well.

But... if you use the same move twice in a combo, you're gonna get higher proration. Meaning the opponent gets less untechable time, meaning you have a higher chance to drop the combo. Doing "proper" combos for maximum damage is both safe and easy. I'm not talking about 4x Haida loops where you screw up on the 66C (and thus get punished), we're talking about Chain Revolver combos, that have a billion buffer frames and require a single button push. If you have an easy combo that uses a specific drive twice, you've always got an even easier combo that does more damage. Even if you can't pull that 623D 66C link, I'm sure there's an easier combo for you. The easiest thing I can tell you, is to know your options after 6C: you have j.D or if you time it right, 5D. Then you can go to d.6B or d.5C. From j.D, you have d.6D and d.5D as well. Every variation is easy as hell to pull off. With exception of d.6D -> d.5C, which requires a slight delay, I'm pretty sure you can just rely on the MASSIVE Chain-revolver buffer and push buttons. Keep track of how you attacked your opponent earlier, and then don't use those attacks later.

As the others have said: no reason to use two d.6Ds, d.5C or d.6Bs ever (unless you are ending with Fenrir, which ignores same move proration because of minimum damage) It should be noted that 5D and d.5D are different attacks, and thus are not "same move prorated". Aside from Fenrir (minimum damage ignores proration) and Chain Revolver Oki (purposefully sacrifice damage for a setup...), I can't think of any time when I'd use a drive twice in a single combo.

I know you've been trolling. However, I don't like this precident. This is the Noel Beginner topic. Trolling should be banned here. Its fine anywhere else, but we need a safe haven for newbies to come into. If this topic is not the safe haven, then this board will fail to help newbies. Its that simple.

I'm surprised by how much this works. Though, thats more of a testament to ranked players instead of 2D being a good move. If 2D is blocked, you're ****ed.