dragontamer

She was hit out of the startup in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaYyVbjcxUQ The last hit of the match, Lambda does a wakeup -> gravity seed, and Bang scores a counter-hit during its startup. Not only does she lift up her hands (its the same animation as always), you can clearly see the Gravity Seed Gauge appear when she gets counter-hit. At very least, we know it isn't active-frame full invincible anymore. It may still be head invincible (or some other form of lesser invincibility), but its no longer a true reversal.

Sounds like someone needs to put that in the front list of changes. Thats rather important... Uber-slow CT Optic Barrel was better than CS, if only because of wtf +19 frames on block. Even if they see it comming and block, you have a safe dash in. CS Optic Barrel is literally worthless. 236C cannot be comboed at all, 236B requires a rapid. Both the long range versions leave you at -5 frames. Whats the point of hitting your opponent for like 500 damage?

Well, the point of j.4D is to punish obvious anti-airs. I'm sick of me doing psychic j.4D on say... Ragna's 6A, but j.4D is so slow that Ragna recovers in time to block it :-( Hopefully its fast enough to be useful now. Good catch. I do agree, it does look faster.

It does look smoother, but it could be less hitstop, less recovery, or a sooner "chain revolver continue" point. Less hitstop means the game is essentially played the same (you'll still get a hole on block, so Dragon Punches will still win) but chain revolver is just more intimidating by looking smoother / faster... Less recover means it will be safer on block, and faster chain revolver continue means that some moves may actually have a solid link. IE: it would be a true blockstring. Or, it could be a combination of all of them.

Wait a second: it is Chain Revolver 5C that was jump cancelable in BBCS1. Was 5D jump also cancelable in Loketest1?? Or is that a typo?

Did Lambda lift her hands on that final hit? It looks like Gravity Field doesn't have invincibility anymore. I swear that was Gravity Field's startup animation.

Actually, it is possible if 2A had a P1 of 50% and a P2 of 60%. I find such massive P1 to be... strange... to say the least... but it is possible. I'd have to go with the "unreliable news" theory.

j.4D can only crossup opponents, like Bang's j.4B. j.4D's ground startup got faster, but there is still the unfortunate little "warning, I'm about to cross you up" hop that Noel does. Sliding bloom trigger looks like a disadvantage to me. 236D Rapid -> stuff was decent, doesn't seem possible anymore. Maybe it will be easier to pickup a corner combo however. j.6B bouncing is very nice, I miss that. It does seem faster than normal... but its hard to tell for sure. Plus, poor encoding may speed up or slow down a video, so it could be a camera problem that makes something look faster. EDIT: Thats some huge pushback on 5C. Also, I'm not sure if attacks have more startup or if they just cancel into the next chain revolver sooner. For sure, the period between d.6D and d.6B is shorter, but I don't know if its because d.6D recovers faster or if d.6B has less startup. FUCK YES. Party time. :yaaay:

BTW: can anyone else be happy about this? 6A 2B 6A 2B 6A 6B shinnanigans!! I hope that the 6A on crouchers stay. It kinda sucks that only Tager / Hakumen. Dashins are... acceptable... off of 5A, 2A, and 2B (because you can "protect" your dash in with a 2C counter-hit currently). With 6A -> 2B -> 6A, and 6A -> 6B, we have something to make sure our opponents are actually paying attention for once. I think that small change will greatly improve Noel's pressure.

When I read this the first time (without the +/- signs on...) I thought it was a nurf. I guess it must be an untechable slide with a nice combo after it or something. 236D RC is a decent Rapid Cancel combo if you can get to the corner... although, if its a long slide, 236D -> slide would still probably combo into 6C -> relaunch -> something... Meh, I instinctively thought it to be a nurf (thinking like wtf 214D Totally useless slide). Maybe its more like Jin's 214D: with an actual combo off of it in the corner without a rapid. Currently, ground launches don't combo even in the corner so... maybe it is a buff. Well, air hits should still corner-bounce into combo right? So 236D -> 632146D should still work right? Bah, damn this translated nonsense, I want my hands on the damn game...

Consider this: Jin's 6D is +12 frames and 35 frames. Ragna's Dead Spike is 32 frames and +5 frames. Noel's 236A is 30 frames and +0 frames, while 236B/C is -5 frames. The move is practically worthless on block / pressure, and still way too slow to make up for it.

Jump Cancel on 5C and 6A hitting crouchers is where its at. Faster Optic Barrel == maybe good... the move absolutely sucks at the moment. At least in CT it had wtf guard stun, and CS1 is too slow (opponents can still react to it), but it has no guard stun / hitstun, so you can't combo or pressure if you even manage to land a hit. Sounds like Noel is getting better normals, and weaker Drives. This can't be a bad thing by any stretch of the imagination. Its not like 623D relaunches help her normal combos. Maybe they want to nurf her max damage and buff her Abare? Thats perfectly fine to me. From the main page: Lets hope for an Optic Barrel that provides us an "easy out" of Chain Revolver. Optic Barrel needs to drop down to ~15 frames with 0 or better frame advantage to make Chain Revolver safe... but ~20 frame Optic Barrel would be fast enough.

Can be good or bad... Can be good or bad... do we still have corner bloom trigger into fenrir? Can we pickup the combo without a rapid? As long as the rest of her combos are buffed, (or if everyone else's combos in the game is nurfed), then I'm fine with this. Seems strange that they'd get rid of 623D -> 66C link. If we have jump-cancels however, 2147A will likely be a suitable replacement (800 minimum damage + good proration). 2147A and Spring Raid are reudnant on midscreen standing opponents... I can't imagine how to make any of Noel's D moves worse on block. And there is plenty of room for creativity if we want combos. Any change to Noel's D is good news IMO. Noel's 6C relaunches a sliding opponent IIRC, so corner bloom trigger probably won't change, as long as its an untechable slide. Actually, that could make CT style bloom trigger loops easier to do. Another possibility is Bloom Trigger -> 22C for a relaunch (sliding counts as down right?) *********************** Here are my thoughts overall: 1. Reliable Oki from Spring Raid? We got plenty of relaunches, but few ways of getting reliable Oki from random chain revolver stuff. (like random d.5B). 2. "Changed D moves" is about the most ambiguous news I've ever heard of. Lets hope for more jump cancels, more hitstop and smaller buffer: this will allow for offensive option select. (d.5A 214Dd.5B optionselect bitch!). 3. Need footage of j.4D. See? I can turn any news into good news when we have so little information avaliable.

I haven't tested this yet, but I generally get better results from j.D -> d.6B -> 632146D. Its more stable IMO. You haven't used d.6B yet in that combo, so it won't give you much proration

I thought someone doing 720C in the middle of my combo was broken when I played a beginner mode Tager online. Then I realized: there is a giant green bar that flashes where the Bursts used to be (beginner mode doesn't have burst). When that fills up, Tager will 720C you. If anything, Beginner mode is the ultimate handicap against yourself. All reversal supers are projected to the enemy, and to my knowledge, there are no reversals avaliable for anyone. (Tager's C is 360B. And Ragna's C is 623D, which doesn't have startup invincibility). You get easy mode combos, but even then, enemies who know how to truely combo you will do more damage.

Erm... I don't think I tech anymore vs Tager. OTG2B doesn't do much damage, and most of the time the opponent does Gadget Finger anyway. If I see the Sledge coming, I'll neutral tech on reaction, and then punish your whiff. You won't be able to rapid on whiffed sledges... On the other hand, sledging after I wakeup, expecting a wakeup 2D... it seems like that would simply be beaten by reacting to sledge and poking you out of it.

I don't know the exact frames, but it must be pretty large. As a random guess, I'd say its at least 20 frames, probably more. If you counter-hit someone's grab with 5A and then BC, it will still show up as a throw-reject. EDIT here's where I get the 20 frame number: You'll have all of 5A's startup (5 frames for Noel), followed by ~10 frames of hitstop, followed by 7 frames of throw-startup. This here is a total of 22 frames already. So we know the throw-reject timing is massive to say the least. There's a chance that the throw-reject timer doesn't include the hitstop however... but effectively, hitstop will always be there.

Its not a mind game if its a guarenteed hit for the Tager. Actually, If they're spamming 360 / Throw, they WILL hit you 100% of the time. Gauntlet Hades just recovers too slow. Now a mindgame would be like Gauntlet Hades -> Rapid -> double jump or something silly like that. The opponent 360Bs you, but you've double-jumped so it whiffs. Then you punish while you land.

GG isn't even prediction... its like, both players actively wanted to throw each other at the exact same time. 0-frame throws with ~2 frames to throw break? WTF.

No, at least, not for everyone. Some people like to block using ABC. In BlazBlue, this defaults to barrier block, but if they attempt to throw you, then ABC will automatically throw-break. In CT, this was arguably overpowered. In CS however, they increased the throw-reject time, so you can easily punish ABC blockers by doing any kind of throw-reject punish. Basically, people who barrier block using AB won't be punished by throw-reject baits. Now, if your opponent happens to be using ABC as Barrier-Block option select Throw Break... then j.A -> throw will probably do an untechable throw-reject. I wouldn't rely on it. I'm pretty sure all the people who got into the habit of blocking with ABC stopped doing it in CS...

Stop saying things with less words that make more sense! We need more epic walls of text like mine.

Here's the flaw in your reasoning: Tager has 8 frames to punish you. 5 frames to buffer, and 3 frames of extra space to hit the B button after a 360 after the blocked Hell's Fang. He has 13-frames to punish you on instant-block. Sure, there are lots of newbies who cannot do this, but there are far more competent players who can (even online Tagers are good enough to do this 100% of the time). Unfortunately, assuming your opponent is an incompetent n00b who can't buffer 360Bs while in blockstun will make you lose battles in the long term. Learn to play against the experts, so that you yourself can become an expert. Assuming incompetence on the opponent's side will make you lose. And yes, I'd have to say that a Tager who can't punish Gauntlet Hades is pretty damn incompetent.

Another thing to note: 2A and 5A typically are level 0 attacks, which means they have the least guardstun in the game. Meaning, you can have a green throw off of 2A / 5A soonest. (just make sure its really a lvl 0 attack). If you're Hazama / Bang / Tager, lvl 0 attack -> command grab works For slightly different risk/reward structure... you can also go for counter-hit combos. For example, Jin's 2A -> 2C, Ragna 2A -> 2C or Noel's 2A -> 5C/2C. This beats people who are only hitting throw (1ABC will barrier block. 4BC will actually throw), but gets you usually get a larger combo. This beats mashing and throws. Yet another risk/reward is to use (pseudo)-throw invincible attacks. Noel's 2D, Jin's 6B, Taokaka's 6B, and Ragna's Gauntlet Hades are throw invincible because they're airborne. (they need to be air thrown. Ground throws will whiff). So you can get counter-hit combos off of these if your opponent throw-rejects. Noel's 662D crosses up on crouchers and Taokaka's 6B is an overhead, so you get yet another risk/reward structure from here. For Noel, 2A -> 662D beats throws/throw-breaks, crouchers and some mashers and even backdash. The most conservative thing you can do is to just stick a low in a true blockstring. 2A -> 2B for most characters for instance. It beats people trying to chicken jump (If you're holding up-back, you can't be holding back down. Can't be jumping and blocking low at the same time), and if they're blocking correctly, its a very conservative move. They probably need to IB->Reversal to interrupt it and they won't have much time to boot. Normally, chicken-blocking will beat all of the above tactics. Think of each one as an offensive option-select. Pink-throw beats Option-Select throw break and throw break. Frame Traps beat throw-break and mashers. Throw-invincibile pressure beats throw-break and sometimes crouchers (depending on your character). Lows beat people who are too lazy to think and just want to jump out of there. Finally, just a regular tick-throw off of 2A forces the opponent to pay attention. Adding reversals into the mix... Pink-Throw is usually a solid block-string, so your opponent can't DP you if you Pink-throw. Also, training your opponent to throw-break after 2A opens them up to the other strategies. If they begin to truely react to all of the options, you've used that mixup too much in a single match.

Apologies for the elitism here on Dustloop. You'll get used to it, and shame on the other players here for boosting their own frail egos rather than help this guy out. Honestly, where else is he going to ask? This is a valid question in a valid forum. His problem is well described and he talks in complete sentences. He understands he needs help, swallowed his ego and asked a damn question. The least we could do for him is answer it damn it. Now, the more important thing: you are -11 frames after a Gauntlet Hades. This means that 360B is inescapable. This is the risk you take when you use Gauntlet Hades. Stop doing it if your friend knows how to block. Instead, use lows (like 3C or 2B) and combo off of them. Next: Ragna has the advantage over Tager. Stay outside of Tager's range, and poke him to death. Work your combos and understand your opponent's defense. EVERY character, except Noel / Tsubaki / Rachel, has an advantage over Tager. Ragna has more range on his attacks, is faster, and your combos do more damage: what more can you ask for? Yes, your combos do more than 720C. So hit practice mode!!