mAc Chaos

Can we get this stickied?

I'll reserve this spot too, then you guys can remove your posts if I need them. :3 I'm still adding some as we speak, I'll look at yours too, entnervt. There's so many combos, it takes a while. Also, some of these combos, like the 6C ones, could be optimized, I think. A few of them do a ton of damage, then in the video they toss in a Zantetsu or something that uses all 8 stars and barely adds any damage, so if you just removed it and ended in 5C > 3C you'd be set. I just transcribed them as is for now since they still do a ton of damage.

Reserved.

The time has come! This thread will serve as the hub for optimal and useful CS Haku combos. Make sure to read Spark's helpful CS Hakumen Guide to get a handle on CS Haku's changes. The starting move of the combo will be in bold, and Fatal Counter combos will be displayed in red. The combos will be arranged by their starting move, and then display the amount of stars and (if available) the damage dealt by the combo. Ideally we'll want all of that and maybe even a video of the combo in action. The general rule ought to be one star for every 1000 damage and no purple throws. TERMS hop = 66, Haku's dash , = link > = cancel AA = anti air CH = counter hit jc = jump cancel FC = fatal counter (X) = canceling out of the move after X hits. For example, Renka(1) means only allowing the first hit (out of two) before continuing to the next move. [n] = Charge whatever button is in the brackets. 6[C] would mean charging 6C instead of just throwing it out. Also, I'll write "Kishuu > Enma" as 623AA for short since that's much easier. The combos will be organized by starter move, star usage (in parentheses, including how many stars gained back during the combo) and damage done. If a combo takes 2 stars and gains 1 back, it will be noted as: (2,1) This will be a work in progress and continue to expand as the game is released and we discover more combos. Let's get started! If you guys see a combo here that you know can be optimized further, let me know. For example: 2A > Renka(1) > 623AA > falling j.2C, 2C > sj.2A > IAD j.2A > j.C. Instead of 2C after the falling j.2C, you might be able to do something like 5C > 5C and then something else, but I can't be sure yet so I won't put that there. BASIC COMBOS Below you'll find a ton of combos, but there are a few basic ones that are worth knowing right off the bat, especially if you're just learning Hakumen. Hakumen relies on his stars to do damage, and you want to be efficient with your star usage. That means not spending all of your stars for poor damage. The general rule is 1 star for every 1000 damage. The combos listed here adhere mostly to those rules, but if you play around in training mode and find your own that matches that, then you can tailor your arsenal for your specific needs. 1. Renka combos Renka > Gurren, 6C This combo is a basic, easy to do one that gives decent damage and takes three stars. It can be started with 2A, 2B, 5B, or 5C if you don't want to throw out Renka by itself. Hit confirming with one of those four moves is recommended. 2. Falling C combos This is the heart of Hakumen's combos. The gist of it looks like this: [starter move] > 623AA > falling j.2C, 2C > sj.2A, IAD j.2A, j.C It only takes two stars, but gives great damage for it. It's among his most efficient, and anyone who wants to get good with Hakumen has to master this. It has a ton of different forms, better versions in the corner, etc., that you can delve into below. Typical starters are 5B, 5C, or falling j.2C. If you start it with j.2C, you must continue into 5C before going into 623AA. A more complete form includes Renka, but requires four stars: [starter move] > Renka(1) > 623AA > falling j.2C, 2C > sj.2A, IAD j.2A, j.C The starters here consist of 2A, 5A, 2B, 5B, 5C, and falling j.2C > 5C. 3. Anti air combos Without Hakumen's 6A, his universal anti air, his anti air options have broken down into situational tools that are nevertheless good. Anti airs you want to use: j.C: One of his best anti airs, great for zoning and keeping your opponent off of you. However, it doesn't have many good combo options. 5A: a good fast jab that has quick recovery and can CH into good damage. It has little range though, so it's only good if they're in your face, or you want to try and fish out a CH. A meterless 5A anti air combo: (0) 5A > sj.A > sj.B > jc > j.2A, j.C On CH you can go into his falling C combo: (2) 5A CH, 5C > 623AA > falling j.2C, 2C > sj.2A, IAD j.2A, j.C 2C: 2C isn't a good anti air to use when someone is coming at you from full screen, but if they're near you and you can see them jumping, the air unblockable attribute it carries as well as its broad range make it a good AA. The damage after it isn't great, but it's meterless. (0) 2C > sj.2A, IAD j.2A, j.C There are two other anti airs for Hakumen, arguably his best. j.D: What was previously a useless counter is now possibly his best one. It stuns them for hours while Haku throws his opponent towards the moon, and as they fall down you can do pretty much anything you want to them. You're guaranteed good damage. Here's an example combo: (2) j.D, 5C, 5C > 623AA > falling j.2C, 2C > sj.2A, IAD j.2A, j.C (4244 damage) (Video) Notice the presence of the falling C combo in here, as well as the rest of his combos. His last anti-air requires meter... Hotaru: The best "DP" move in the game, it beats almost everything, is air unblockable, fully invincible, and jump cancelable to boot. It also Fatal Counters on CH, letting you do some of the most damaging combos in the game. If there's ever a jump in you want to stuff, this move does it for sure, but takes two stars. Example: (4) Hotaru, 5C > 623AA > falling j.2C > 2C > sj.2A > IAD j.2A > j.C (4170 damage) (Video) It still takes extra stars to land the big damage after Hotaru. 4. Throw combos Haku's throws lead to some easy damage. (1) Throw > Gurren, 6C > ( (4) Shippu) ^This is an inefficient combo, but if you don't want to do the hop 5A business then that's the other option. It's better to learn how to combo off hop 5A though, as it gives good damage for only one star: (1) Throw (all purpose) > Gurren, Hop 2B, 5A > sj.A > j.B > jc > j.2A, j.C (2759 damage) If you're in the corner, you can do a Renka combo after the throw: (3) Throw (corner only) > Renka, 2C > sj.2A, j.C, Gurren, 5C, 3C This does good damage for three stars, and gives you corner knockdown. His backthrow requires rapid cancel, and can be combo'd in the corner with Renka as well. These should suffice as basics. When you want more information then go down deeper into these combos and experiment with what suits your needs. COMBOS BY STARTER MOVE 5A (0) 5A AA > sj.A > sj.B > sj.2A > sj.C (0) 5A AA CH, 2C > sj.2A, IAD j.2A, j.C (2, 1) 5A AA CH, 5C > 623AA > falling j.2C, 2C > sj.2A, IAD j.2A, j.C (4, 1) 5A AA CH, 5C > 623AA > falling j.2C, 5C, 5C > 623AA > falling j.2C, 2C > sj.2A (3824 damage) (Video) (4, 1) 5A CH, 2A > Renka(1) > 623AA > falling j.2C, 2C > sj.2A, IAD j.2A, j.C (3344 damage) (Video) (4, 1) 5A > Renka(1) > 623AA > falling j.2C, 2C > sj.2A > IAD j.2A > j.C 2A (3) 2A > Renka > Gurren, 6C (4, 1) 2A > Renka(1) > 623AA > falling j.2C, 2C > sj.2A > IAD j.2A > j.C 6A 6A, 5A > combo (0) 6A, 3C, 3C (1729 damage) (Video) (2, 1) 6A CH, 5C > 623AA > falling j.2C, 2C > sj.2A, IAD j.2A > j.C (3378 damage) (Video) 5B (3) 5B > Renka > Gurren, 6C (4, 1) 5B > Renka(1) > 623AA > falling j.2C, 2C > sj.2A > IAD j.2A > j.C 2B (3) 2B > Renka > Gurren, 6C (4, 1) 2B > Renka(1) > 623AA > falling j.2C, 2C > sj.2A > IAD j.2A > j.C 6B 5C (2) 5C (anti air), 2B > Gurren, 2C > sj.C, falling j.2A, j.B, jc > j.2A, j.C, land, Gurren, 5C, 2B (3687 damage) (Video) (2) 5C (corner) > Renka, 2C > sj.2A, falling J.2C, 2C > sj.2A, IAD j.2A, j.C, 5C, 3C (4921 damage) (4, 1) 5C > Renka(1) > 623AA > falling j.2C, 2C > sj.2A > IAD j.2A > j.C 6C (2) 6C (full charge, launch) FC, 5C > 623AA > falling j.2C, 2C > sj.2A > IAD j.2A > j.C (5653 damage) (Video) (2, 1) 6C (full charge), Hop, 5C > 623AA > falling j.2C, 2C > sj.2A > IAD j.2A, falling j.C (corner), 5C, 3C (6030 damage) (Video) (2, 2) 6C (full charge, near corner) FC, hop, 6C (full charge), hop, 5C > 623AA > falling j.2C, 2C > sj.2A, IAD j.2A, falling j.C, 5C, 3C (7292 damage) (Video) (5) 6C (near corner) > Shippu > 623A > 2C > sj.C > falling j.C > 5C > 3C (Video) (7) 6C (full charge) FC, 6C (full charge), Renka(1) > Zantetsu, 5C > Renka, 2C > sj.A > sj.B > sj.C > falling j.C > 6C (Video) (8, 1) 6C (full charge) FC, hop, Renka(1) > Zan > 623AA > falling j.2C > 2C > sj.2A > IAD j.2A > falling j.C > Gurren > 5C > 3C (8319 damage) (Video) (8) 6C (full charge) FC > hop full 6C, Zan, 6C > Shippu > 623A > 4C (Video) (8, 2) 6C (full charge, near corner) FC > Shippu (full charge!) > 623A > 5C > Zan > 2C > sj.2A > falling j.2C > 2C > sj.2A > IAD j.2A > j.C > 5C > 3C (Video) (8) 6C (full charge) FC, falling j.C, 5C > 623AA > falling j.2C > 2C > sj.C > falling j.C > 6C > Shippu > Zantetsu > 6C 2C (0) 2C AA > sj.2A, IAD j.2A, j.C 3C (0) 3C, 3C (0) 3C, 2C > sj.2A > IAD j.2A > j.C (1) 3C, 2B > Gurren, hop 5A > j.A > j.B > j.2A, j.C (4, 1) 3C, Renka(1) > 623AA > falling j.2C > 2C > sj.2A > IAD j.2A > j.C (3892 damage) (Video) 4C (0) 4C CH, 6C (0) 4C CH, 3C (and one more 3C if you're close enough) (1) 4C CH, 3C, 2B, Gurren, hop 5A > j.A > j.B > j.2A, j.C (2) 4C CH, (5C if close) > 623AA > falling j.2C, 2C > sj.2A, IAD j.2A, j.C (5) 4C CH, Gurren, 6C > Shippu Falling j.B (0) Falling j.B (air hit), land, 2C > sj.2A, IAD j.2A, j.C (2, 1) Falling j.B CH (corner), 5C > 623AA > falling j.2C, 2C > sj.2Ax2, IAD j.2A, j.C, 5C, 3C (4051 damage) (Video) (3) Falling j.B, 2B > Renka > Gurren > 6C (3) Falling j.B, 5B > Renka > Gurren > 6C (3) Falling j.B (air hit) > Tsubaki, falling j.2C, 2C > sj.2A, IAD j.2A, j.C (4) Falling j.B, 2B > Renka(1) > 623AA > falling j.2C > 2C > sj.2A > IAD j.2A > j.C (4130 damage) (4) Falling j.B, 5B > Renka(1) > 623AA > falling j.2C > 2C > sj.2A > IAD j.2A > j.C Falling j.C (3, 1) Falling j.C CH, Gurren > 623AA > falling j.2C > 2C > sj.2A > IAD j.2A > j.C (2816 damage) (Video) Falling j.2C (2) Falling j.2C, 5C > 623AA > falling j.2C > 2C > sj.2A> IAD j.2A (2) Falling j.2C (into corner), 5C > 623AA > falling j.2C > sj.2A, IAD j.2A, falling j.C, 5C, 3c (4196 damage) (Video) (3) Falling j.2C, 2A > Renka > Gurren, hop 5A, sj.A > sj.B, j.2A, j.C (3311 damage) (Video) Gurren (3) Gurren > 623AA > falling j.2C > 2C > sj.2A > IAD j.2A > j.C Renka combos (2, 1) Renka (corner only) > 2C > sj.2A > falling j.2C > 2C > sj.2A > IAD j.2A > falling j.C > 5C > 3C (4620 damage) (Video) Zantetsu combos Hotaru combos (2) Hotaru (midscreen) > falling j.2C, 2C > sj.2A, IAD j.2A, j.C (3) TK FC Hotaru > falling j.2C, 5C, 2C > Gurren, hop 5B > sj.A > sj.B > jc > j.2A, j.C (4410 damage) (Video) (4, 1) Hotaru, 5C > 623AA > falling j.2C > 2C > sj.2A > IAD j.2A > j.C (4413 damage) (Video) (4) TK FC Hotaru > falling j.2C, 5C, 5C > 623AA > falling j.2C, 2C > sj.2A, IAD j.2A, j.C (5127 damage) (Video) (6) TK FC Hotaru > falling j.2C, 5C, 5C > Renka(1) > 623AA > falling j.2C, 2C > sj.2A, IAD j.2A, falling j.C, 5C, 3C (6246 damage) (8, 2) TK FC Hotaru (midscreen) > 5C > Renka(1) > 623AA > falling j.2C > 5C > 5C > 623AA (corner) > falling j.2C > 5C > 2C > sj.2A > falling j.2C > 2C > sj.2A > IAD j.2A > falling j.C > 5C > 3C (Video) (8, 1) TK Hotaru > Tsubaki > 5C > 623AA > falling j.2C > 5C > 2C > Gurren > 5C > Gurren > 2C > j.2A > falling j.C > 6C (Video) (2) Hotaru > falling j.2C > 2C > sj.2A > IAD j.2A (corner), falling j.C, 5C, 3C (4170 damage) (Video) (2, 1) Hotaru (corner), 5C, 2C > j.2A, falling j.2C, 2C > sj.C, j.2A, j.C, 5C, 3C (4807 damage) (2) Hotaru (near corner) > falling j.2C, 5C, 2C > j.2A, falling j.2C, 2C > j.2A, IAD j.2A, j.C, 5C, 3C (5089 damage) (4) Hotaru FC (near corner) > falling j.2C, 5C, 5C > 623AA, falling j.2C, 5C, 2C > j.2A, falling j.2C, 2C > j.2A, IAD j.2A, j.C, 5C, 3C (6003 damage) (4) Hotaru FC (corner), 6C ( Lv 2 ), Renka, 2C > sj.2A, falling j.2C, 2C > j.2A, IAD j.2A, j.C, 5C, 3C (6112 damage) (6, 2) Hotaru (near corner), 5C, 5C > Renka(1) > 623AA > falling j.2C, 5C, 2C > j.2A, falling j.2C, 2C > j.2A, IAD j.2A, j.C, 5C, 3C (7016 damage) (6, 2) Hotaru FC (near corner), 6C (Lv 2), Renka(1) > 623AA > falling j.2C, 5C, 2C > j.2A, falling j.2C, 2C > j.2A , IAD j.2A, j.C, 5C, 3C (7138 damage) Tsubaki combos (3, 1) TK/Hop Tsubaki (near corner), 2C > sj.2A > falling j.2C, 2C > sj.2A, IAD j.2A, j.C, 5C, 3C (4980 damage) (Video) (3) TK/Hop Tsubaki CH, 6A, 5A > sj.A > sj.B > jc > j.2C, j.C (3579 damage) (Video) (3) TK/Hop Tsubaki CH, 2C > Gurren, hop, 5A > sj.A > sj.B > jc > j.2C, j.C (4004 damage) (Video) (5, 1) TK/Hop Tsubaki, 5C > 623AA > falling j.2C, 2C > sj.2A, IAD j.2A, j.C, 5C, 3C (5211 damage) (Video) Throw combos (0) Airthrow, falling j.2C, 2C > sj.2A, IAD j.2A (0) Airthrow (midscreen), falling j.2C, 2C > sj.C, falling j.2A (corner), j.C, (land) 5C, 3C (Video) (1) Airthrow, falling j.2C, 5C, Gurren, 6C (2911 damage) (Video) (1) Throw (all purpose) > Gurren, Hop 2B, 5A > sj.A > j.B > jc > j.2A > j.C (2759 damage)(1) Throw (Taokaka and Hazama) > Gurren > Hop > 2B > 5A > jc > j.A > j.B > jc > j.C (2711 damage) (1) Throw (Ragna, Jin, and Bang) > Gurren > Hop > 2B > 5A > jc > j.A > j.B > jc > j.2A > j.C (2909 damage) (1) Throw (everyone else) > Gurren > Hop 5B > jc > j.A > j.B > jc > j.2A > j.C (2929 damage) (4) Throw > Renka(1) > 623AA > falling j.2C, 2C > sj.2A, IAD j.2A, j.C (4292 damage) (Video) (5) Throw > Renka(1) > Gurren, walk forward, 5C > 623AA > falling j.2C, 2C > sj.2A, IAD j.2A, j.C, 5C (Video) (3) Throw (corner) > Renka, 2C > sj.2A, j.C, Gurren, 5C, 3C (4078 damage) (Video) (4) Backthrow (into corner) > RC > 2C > sj.2A > falling j.2C > 2C > sj.2A > IAD j.2A > falling j.C > 5C > 3C (4282 damage) (Video) Counter combos 5D(3) 5D (Rachel only) > 2A > Renka(1) > Gurren > hop 5A > sj.A > j.B > j.2A > j.C (Video) (4) 5D (Rachel only) > 2A > Renka(1) > 623AA > falling j.2C > 2C > sj.2A > IAD j.2A > j.C (Video) 2D (0) 2D (into corner), 2C > sj.2A > falling j.2C > 2C > sj.2A > falling j.C > 5C > 3C (3278 damage) (Video) (2, 1) 2D > 5C > 623AA > falling j.2C > 2C > sj.2A > IAD j.2A > j.C (3309 damage) (Video) 6D (0) 6D (corner), 6C (full charge), Hop 2C > j.2A, j.2C, 2C > j.2A, IAD j.2A, j.C, 5C, 3C (3619 dmg) (2) 6D, 6C (full charge), hop 5C > 623AA > falling j.2C, 2C > sj.2A, IAD j.2A, j.C (3249 damage) j.D (0) j.D, 2C > sj.2A, IAD j.2A, j.C (3047 damage) (Video) (0) j.D, 6C, 5A > sj.A > sj.B > j.2A, j.C (3223 damage) (Video) (1) j.D, 5C, 2B > Gurren, hop, 5A > sj.A > sj.B > jc > j.2A, j.C (Video) (1) j.D, 5C, 2C > Gurren, hop, 5B > sj.A > sj.B > j.2C, j.C (3852 damage) (Video) (2) j.D, 5C > 623AA > falling j.2C, 2C > sj.2A, IAD j.2A (now in corner), falling j.C, 5C, 3C (4146 damage) (Video) (2, 1) j.D, 5C, 5C > 623AA > falling j.2C, 2C > sj.2A, IAD j.2A, j.C (4244 damage) (Video) (2, 1) j.D (corner only), 5C, 5C > 623AA > falling j.2C, 2C > sj.2A, IAD j.2A, j.C, 5C, 3C (4469 damage) Mugen combos 6D > Hop Tsubaki x 8, 5C > Zan(1) > 623AA > Tsubaki, 5C > Zan(1) > 623AA > Tsubaki, 5C > Zan(1) > Shippu (Video) 6C (corner, full charge) FC > Mugen > 6C > Shippu > 623AA > Shippu > 623AA > Shippu (Video)

Oh, so this is what Spark meant by saying it launches them OTG.

Question: 6C FC sends them flying into the air right? So why is it that sometimes I see a 6C FC but it just stuns them for a long time?

Awesome. I've been looking forward to your thoughts for a while. I actually didn't think Haku had it that bad at neutral (except in some situations, like if Ragna does nothing but keep just outside my range and wait for me to do something so he can punish) but some other Haku players I know did so I was asking for their benefit since I couldn't properly evaluate it after only playing CS for a day.

Great info, Spark. Awesome, that's a lot of damage from just 1 star. I was just gonna go with the old throw > gurren > hop 5A > j.A > j.B > j.C before I knew there were character variations. (Assuming I can even get that hop 5A down since it was always pesky.) Sophisticat, what you say makes sense. I'm not sure if it's best to organize it by what move starts it though... at least for me, when I want a combo the first thought that runs through my head is, "Alright, let's go find some combos that cost ___ stars and see what does the most damage / is the most practical and then I'll work it into my game," so what move starts it is an afterthought that I consider only after I found the combo I want. If a two star combo that does a lot of damage starts off 5C then I'll start using 5C, etc., but I wouldn't think to look for a 5C combo beforehand. What do you think? And then I see some other threads have it arranged from "beginner combos" to "intermediate combos" to "advanced combos" and kind of combine things. Hm, actually, later on I'd look for the max damage I could get off specific moves once I needed ways to handle certain matchups (since say against Nu, half my moves would be impossible to use so I'd have to look to make the most out of certain other moves), so your way works after all I guess. I jotted down a lot of 6C FC and FC Hotaru combos. Basically, if you land either of these in a match and they haven't been perfecting you, then you won. Assuming you have the stars, of course. Two airthrow combos: Airthrow (midscreen) > falling j.2C > 2C > sj.C > falling j.2A (corner) > j.C > (land) 5C > 3C Airthrow > falling j.2C > 2C > sj.2A > IAD j.2A Both take zero stars and do good damage. There may be better ones with what you can do in CS... And two corner throw combos: Three stars: Throw (corner) > Renka > 2C > sj.2A > j.C > Gurren > 5C > 3C (I have a feeling there should be a better version of this combo out there somewhere... it seems too short compared to all the other corner combos now.) Four stars: Backthrow (into corner) > RC > 2C > sj.2A > falling j.2C > 2C > sj.2A > IAD j.2A > falling j.C > 5C > 3C Also a j.D combo: j.D > 5C > 623AA > falling j.2C > 2C > sj.2A > IAD j.2A > j.C (corner) > 5C > 3C

Figures. :P Spark, are there any combos that you find yourself using a lot that would be worth everyone knowing? I wrote down a whole bunch of combos I saw now. I'll keep it for later to see if any of them are worth it. @Leonil: yeah, what you said about 5C... if you can find anything when the game hits then it'll be good. Eight more days. Then we can all launch ourselves into this. Until then we just get ready. I think it would make sense to organize the combos by stars, or maybe category, like anti-air and such, but we'd have to define what categories we want. Of course the damage would be alongside it, and maybe some situational combos listed near the end that wouldn't ordinarily get looked at but might be of interest. Thanks for the link Leonil. Now to see what it has...

For example, what do you think of this kind of combo? TK FC Hotaru (midscreen) > 5C > Renka(1) > 623AA > falling j.2C > 5C > 5C > 623AA (corner) > falling j.2C > 5C > 2C > sj.2A > falling j.2C > 2C > sj.2A > IAD j.2A > falling j.C > 5C > 3C It's 8 stars, but practical and took about 80% off the lifebar. But if you have less than 8 stars you could always just cut it off where you please. Here's two combos you can do off 5D: 3 stars: 5D > 2A > Renka(1) > Gurren > hop 5A > sj.A > j.B > j.2A > j.C 4 stars: 5D > 2A > Renka(1) > 623AA > falling j.2C > 2C > sj.2A > IAD j.2A > j.C I can't get the damage til I do them myself.

Yeah, I'm trying to figure out how to organize it right now. I'm transcribing combos in combo vids right now, and they do HUGE damage, but take a lot of stars. But, a lot of them start off decent starters... and you don't HAVE to finish the combo all the way as shown in the video, even doing 3/4 of it nets most of the damage. So I'm trying to figure out which ones to include where and such.

No way, you're helping out a lot. You're not really going to be in "anyone's way" by posting combos. If someone finds a more damaging version of a combo we'll just use that. But you'll never know if nobody mentions it. We can all verify what combos get posted, anyway. Also, the combos need to be true combos obviously (not black beat) and shouldn't use purple throws.

Good job. I was going to suggest we include the amount of damage and stars in our combos. You beat me to that 6C > 6C > 6C combo, lool. :P Also, what did you mean by there were others that you don't want to post? Because they're TOP SECRET? I thought of that too but I figure if there's a combo worth doing they already figured it out ten different ways already so it's only a matter of time. Besides, the point of the combo thread is to help out all other Hakumen players not hoard information. Leonil: yeah, we're all gonna have our hands on CS soon and we can post up tons of combos. I just wanted to make the thread so we I could update / organize it since those tend to fall apart after a while. The actual combos themselves would require everybody's input.

lool 6-4 is hardly bad at all.

henaki hands

By the way if you guys want all the frame data for Bang they have it here: http://s1.zetaboards.com/blazblue/pages/bbcs/ That's where I saw the 5A anyway. :P

Ah, right. Damn. I need to just set some Bang blockstrings in training mode and mash D in different directions and see what happens. :P If there's any holes I'll find them!!!

It says Haku's j.D startup is 1 frame and it lasts 9 frames, then it takes 11 to land / recover. If Bang's is 13 frames for startup and is active for 3 frames, so you should be in the air still. I guess if you're in an airtight blockstring that's not going to work though so it still comes down to predicting it. Also the recovery on Bang's command throw is a whopping 37 frames so if he whiffs it on your j.D I think you'd be able to punish him any way you want... That j.D startup is deceptive, though. I think that only applies to when you're already in the air. If you're just on the ground, and hit up + D, then he has to rise up a bit first before the counter becomes active... it's not active on the first frame. It still puts him in the air right away though. I can't really tell until the game comes out and I can go in training mode to test everything out.

There's no 5A info. :< THE MOST IMPORTANT MOVE http://dustloop.com/guides/bbcs/frameData/bang.html 2A doesn't look like it stuns for much at all though.

Dang. Looks like it's time to get back on Yomi Layer 9000. Actually, I'm gonna look at the frame data to make sure. I know his j.D has an 11 frame recovery, so I just have to see how much recovery Bang's command throw has. Also how much blockstun from 5A since I know all that increased I think.

Hm, I just thought of something. Wouldn't Haku's j.D beat Bang's command grab (since it would put him in the air and make it whiff)? And if you tried to go for a low, the low would whiff, and if you go for an overhead or normal attack it would get countered.

But Skye, I'm pretty sure that Bang can 2A you to make sure you can't jump; if you try you'll get hit out of the startup frames and stay grounded, then he can grab you. I think.

It's going to be even harder to react online. :P I'm just going to predict it and 2A mash my way out!!!

Maybe if you weren't doing anything else and just watching for it, but when you're in the middle of like 3 different 50/50 mixups...