Let's have a calm and honest discussion about Blitz Shield

[Xtra_Zero]

I'm saying that's basically what you get for a successful DP already, so would it be even less damage than a DP?

[Hollysmoke]

I'm saying that's basically what you get for a successful DP already, so would it be even less damage than a DP?

Yes. Rejected state would be a state on its own, such as counter hit state. Personally I like BS as they are right now but that's the idea I would suggest from a gameplay standpoint. 

[BagLunch]

My apologize I specifically mean shield. Not shield bunker. 

 

Doesn't it goes with saying that slash back is roughly the same between the two?

Slashback cannot be used as a wakeup reversal AFAIK, and otherwise Slashback is much closer to a parry than BS is. 

 

When a BS catches a non-projectile attack, it instantly puts the opponent into the Rejected state.  When SB catches an attack, it gives the defender faster recovery, but it doesn't put a stop to the attacker's current action, nor does it grant any temporary invulnerability.  Trying to SB a multi-hitting move/projectile requires a timed input for every hit of it.  SB costs much less tension to activate. 

 

The rewards for a successful BS are generally much, much higher than for a successful SB.  I don't know if there's a minimum period for the Rejected state (e.g. is there a window in which they cannot counter BS while Rejected), but the stun period is very long and there is no proration.  There's a very legitimate argument that without YRC OS techniques, it makes non-projectile oki feel really odd.

[redsilversnake]

For the record, BS does have a damage penalty. It cuts damage by about 20%.

[Hollysmoke]

For the record, BS does have a damage penalty. It cuts damage by about 20%.

 

I couldn't find anything on this before I posted. Will have to test it later.

[Destin]

It should cut closer to 50%.

 

I don't think it should be usable as a reversal, and I wish that certain slow moves were immune to it, like BB and such.  Maybe a special guardstun animation?

[greatfernman]

For the record, BS does have a damage penalty. It cuts damage by about 20%.

it's 85% proration iirc

[Keo-bas]

I'm really not understanding the issue people have with this mechanics. Their high risk and high rewards even on successful blitz shield.

[redsilversnake]

I couldn't find anything on this before I posted. Will have to test it later.

I tested before posting that. I used multiple combos and compared their damage both raw and after BS, and the damage was lower for each one after a BS.

It's strange that it's not on the wiki, though, since I'm pretty sure ElvenShadow said during the first loketest it was in that it reduced damage.

 

it's 85% proration iirc

When I did Elphelt's shotgun stance Px4>Charged shot, it did 102 raw and 82 after a BS. That's a 20.4% reduction, so I'm inclined to think it has 80% proration.

[greatfernman]

firstly that's five hits. there's more than just BS proration being factored in there, there's negative guard bar to factor in too

secondly it's 19.6% reduction (20 damage of 102 damage can't possibly be more than 20%)

[redsilversnake]

firstly that's five hits. there's more than just BS proration being factored in there, there's negative guard bar to factor in too

...I have no idea what you're trying to say here. I didn't say that native damage scaling isn't playing a role in either damage figure, just that BS has obvious proration.

 

secondly it's 19.6% reduction (20 damage of 102 damage can't possibly be more than 20%)

I double-checked, and you're right. My earlier calculation was too simple.

[Maho]

A successfull blitz just takes 10 points of the opponent RISC meter, it doesn't have a fixed proration percentage as a starter.

[redsilversnake]

A successfull blitz just takes 10 points of the opponent RISC meter, it doesn't have a fixed proration percentage as a starter.

I'd always thought people saying RISC had negative values were just assuming it worked like the guard gauge in previous games, but it seems you're right. My bad.

[Poultrygeist]

I like blitz shield but I feel bad for all the Venom players that are going to have to get used to the way it was changed.

 

Also if it was as absurd as some claim, it would be used more in top JPN play, and as shtkn said it really isn't.

[Hollysmoke]

Can we update the wiki please with the information about the damage reduction and RISC? This seems kind of significant and isn't posted anywhere.

[ehuangsan]

Actually I think the reason you don't see BS in high level JP play is because top JP players subtly go out of their way to not let it be an option. It's similar to how non JP players thought that Ky's greed sever was terrible in previous GGs because there weren't many top JP matches that involved greed sever, but in reality it was actually because top JP players were subtly going out of their way to not let CH greed sever be an option.

 

A great example is looking at how Ain does Ky pressure against opponents with meter; it looks rather bizzare and passive from a Ky player standpoint unless you factor in that maybe he is doing those unusual strings (e.g., 6HS, pause, 6HS again) to avoid BSes.

 

I'm in the camp that BS is quite a strong option, maybe about as strong as half moon shield in MBAACC, only more useful and stupid. It is an incredibly good and stupid way to hang mid level players who attempt setups that would normally be okay to do but for the blitz shield.

[MoralHazardPay]

Actually I think the reason you don't see BS in high level JP play is because top JP players subtly go out of their way to not let it be an option. It's similar to how non JP players thought that Ky's greed sever was terrible in previous GGs because there weren't many top JP matches that involved greed sever, but in reality it was actually because top JP players were subtly going out of their way to not let CH greed sever be an option.

 

A great example is looking at how Ain does Ky pressure against opponents with meter; it looks rather bizzare and passive from a Ky player standpoint unless you factor in that maybe he is doing those unusual strings (e.g., 6HS, pause, 6HS again) to avoid BSes.

 

I'm in the camp that BS is quite a strong option, maybe about as strong as half moon shield in MBAACC, only more useful and stupid. It is an incredibly good and stupid way to hang mid level players who attempt setups that would normally be okay to do but for the blitz shield.

So you'd argue that it's not that Blitz Shield is weak, but rather that it is too strong and thus negates a lot of possible options, so only tactics which avoid it are used?

 

I'm kind of split. On one hand I really like that it's a universal reversal mechanism if you can properly call out high/low. It's really satisfying to land one... but I do worry that it's kind of got this niche dominant strategy thing going on.

[Hollysmoke]

So you'd argue that it's not that Blitz Shield is weak, but rather that it is too strong and thus negates a lot of possible options, so only tactics which avoid it are used?

 

I'm kind of split. On one hand I really like that it's a universal reversal mechanism if you can properly call out high/low. It's really satisfying to land one... but I do worry that it's kind of got this niche dominant strategy thing going on.

 

BS is in that awkward design spot where if they make it too lenient, it's a catch-all solution to a lot of options, and if its too strict it becomes just like slashback in which its very rarely used. So the real question is: what's the compromise between the two?

[BagLunch]

So you'd argue that it's not that Blitz Shield is weak, but rather that it is too strong and thus negates a lot of possible options, so only tactics which avoid it are used?

 

I'm kind of split. On one hand I really like that it's a universal reversal mechanism if you can properly call out high/low. It's really satisfying to land one... but I do worry that it's kind of got this niche dominant strategy thing going on.

That isn't exactly what he's saying.  What he's saying is that they deliberately play in a carefully disjointed way designed to either suppress it or bait it out, thus discouraging defenders from freely using it by not giving them obvious patterns/moments to invoke it on.  There's an old sentiment in 3S about how parrying makes people do weird things and play "random for the sake of being random".  This doesn't mean that attacks never get parried, nor that attacks never get used, but that the strength of parrying changes how players attack each other.

 

There's really never been a universal defensive option that is this powerful in GG in terms of its activation speed, what it's capable of stopping, and the rewards given to the defender for a single instance of success.  Supers are much slower, more expensive, and don't grant the arbitrary knockdown/reset/whatever you can pick from the combo of your choice you land following a successful BS.

[ehuangsan]

That isn't exactly what he's saying.  What he's saying is that they deliberately play in a carefully disjointed way designed to either suppress it or bait it out, thus discouraging defenders from freely using it by not giving them obvious patterns/moments to invoke it on.  There's an old sentiment in 3S about how parrying makes people do weird things and play "random for the sake of being random".  This doesn't mean that attacks never get parried, nor that attacks never get used, but that the strength of parrying changes how players attack each other.

 

There's really never been a universal defensive option that is this powerful in GG in terms of its activation speed, what it's capable of stopping, and the rewards given to the defender for a single instance of success.  Supers are much slower, more expensive, and don't grant the arbitrary knockdown/reset/whatever you can pick from the combo of your choice you land following a successful BS.

 

Precisely. It's not something you would really notice about JP players from match videos until you actually try playing them in a fighting game. Most of the top JP fighting game players play with a rather large margin of safety, probably due to cold hard experience from trying otherwise and losing to things like BS tactics or what not.

[Xtra_Zero]

BS is in that awkward design spot where if they make it too lenient, it's a catch-all solution to a lot of options, and if its too strict it becomes just like slashback in which its very rarely used. So the real question is: what's the compromise between the two?

This is because it's redundant as a feature.  Utility-wise it does things that are already in the game.  Since it covers lots of options, as it is, it will either be better than them or it won't.  If you're looking for a reason to keep it around it would need its utility changed drastically.

[Hollysmoke]

This is because it's redundant as a feature.  Utility-wise it does things that are already in the game.  Since it covers lots of options, as it is, it will either be better than them or it won't.  If you're looking for a reason to keep it around it would need its utility changed drastically.

 

I agree; that's why I'm curious as to what the best compromise would be.

[Destin]

Well, for starters, why exactly was it put in? Just because?

[Hollysmoke]

Well, for starters, why exactly was it put in? Just because?

 

Well it's good for character that don't have many defensive options, which is what slashback was for. Unfortunately this time around it got a little TOO strong and easy too use.

[Xtra_Zero]

I'm of the opinion that it was put in just because ASW felt like they needed to change things up somehow.  For the ENTIRE SERIES, characters without reversals have been designed specifically to play around that weakness by being strong in other areas.  It was how the game was balanced and part of what makes the characters different from one another.  It's not as if these characters suddenly needed a reversal, or even SlashBack, in order to remain competitive, which is pretty obvious when you look at Zato, Millia, and even Venom.  Hell, look at Axl.  One of the best reversals in the fucking game (god I fucking hate that move) yet he's not considered that great.  Utility-wise, the characters with good reversals don't need BS because they already have something equivalent, and the characters without good reversals don't need BS either because that's their punishment for good rushdown, doing gigantic damage, having amazing buttons, having screen-filling moves or what have you.