BloodWolF Posted February 16, 2015 Posted February 16, 2015 I really enjoy BS. It can be used offensively to make an opponent think twice about go-to punishes. The best example from my perspective would be dealing with Elphelt's c.S as May. Usually every jump in would just get destroyed. If you try to bait it with a second jump or something, she can just do it again, but jumping in with a BS makes them think twice next time about their autopilot play. It works well on normals that give you trouble that can't exactly be punished on block like DPs. I think it was a great addition and is very satisfying on hard reads. I can see it being more of a pain to deal with as characters with long, slow normals though.
Xtra_Zero Posted February 16, 2015 Posted February 16, 2015 ... I really don't think there's anything "autopilot" about reading and reacting to a jump-in with an anti-air. Really, does nobody have a problem with "Maybe he won't anti-air my telegraphed jump-in this time because of BS"? I mean if not, that's cool I guess...
Layer Posted February 16, 2015 Posted February 16, 2015 I love BS, very satisfying when it lands. Works for me well in online where people often resort to weird ass gimmicks and Volcanic Viper for every situation. Still need to figure out what to do when I get a Air BS though.
BloodWolF Posted February 16, 2015 Posted February 16, 2015 ... I really don't think there's anything "autopilot" about reading and reacting to a jump-in with an anti-air. Really, does nobody have a problem with "Maybe he won't anti-air my telegraphed jump-in this time because of BS"? I mean if not, that's cool I guess... Perhaps autopilot is the wrong word. With certain moves like Elphelt's c.S, it beats enough things to where the thought process is reduced to "Are they in the air? c.S" I see that as a type of autopilot...and honestly, I've read that second sentence a few times and can't understand what you're trying to say. My apologies.
rubedo777 Posted February 16, 2015 Posted February 16, 2015 He's saying there is a problem with the concept of opponents questioning anti-airing your telegraphed jump-in because of blitz shield.
iBeK3n Posted February 16, 2015 Posted February 16, 2015 I think that BS is a great addition to the system. It successfully addresses the problem of good moves being abused while not being OP itself. You can BS back during the stun and it has recovery frames if it whiffs altogether. Not only that, it's not possible to spam it since it requires meter. Overall, I think it's a fair and useful mechanic. How many times have you had people abusing really obvious yet hard to counter tactics with barely any possibility of doing anything? Those days are over.
BloodWolF Posted February 16, 2015 Posted February 16, 2015 He's saying there is a problem with the concept of opponents questioning anti-airing your telegraphed jump-in because of blitz shield. Oh, ok. Thank you. That being the case, I don't think it's much different than baiting someone's wake-up DP. Conditioning opponents will always be a part of the game, so system mechanics like this will always have a use. I guess that was the point I was trying to make.
Angry Guy of DE Posted February 16, 2015 Posted February 16, 2015 Blitz works pretty well in the basic sense; obvious things can be predicted or reacted to and blitzed and then punished. Does it really work as a gamble? Not really. It costs 25% tension that could be used to YRC to get a chance to react to the situation or bait a reversal like a DP and then punish it. Both standing and crouching blitz cover mid hits and one or the other catches lows or overheads while leaving you CH to the other. They all lose to throws clean so its not really wise to use if the opponent can option select throw and make you waste 25% tension for nothing. Its hard to remember to use sometimes because you have to be at neutral or just holding down to perform it, and I can't recall ever using the air version that has reduced active frames to catch attacks. Its kind of like Chaos Code's parry (it had that) mechanic that could catch pokes and let you punish them if you do it right. Blitzin a Blitz can be funny since it was kind of your fault for using a mid hitting normal as a punish when they have 25% to try and reject you back.
HardSlash Posted February 16, 2015 Posted February 16, 2015 I honestly want to see more air blitz sheild in anticipation of AAs. Can you BS during a forward air dash? I haven't tried that yet.
Xtra_Zero Posted February 16, 2015 Posted February 16, 2015 Blitzin a Blitz can be funny since it was kind of your fault for using a mid hitting normal as a punish when they have 25% to try and reject you back. You don't have to change up your starter (unless it's slow enough to be BSed on reaction anyway, in which case you wouldn't be using it anyway), you just have to change up your timing.
shtkn Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 i'm surprised people aren't aware of the YRC os to beat Blitz-backs (blitzing while rejected), it's pretty dumb imo, same problems as yrc burst os i haven't seen blitz used much in high level japanese play, idk why
Xtra_Zero Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 i haven't seen blitz used much in high level japanese play, idk why People are used to the tools they already have because they're enough and they work, probably. I get hit with it here and there at my local arcade, particularly by Zato. I think it's way too good, people are sleeping on it, and the game will change drastically over its lifetime, much like 3S did.
Tofma Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 i'm surprised people aren't aware of the YRC os to beat Blitz-backs (blitzing while rejected), it's pretty dumb imo, same problems as yrc burst os i haven't seen blitz used much in high level japanese play, idk why Damn thats great. Hope they dont take that out. (But they will anyway) Don't like the mechanic much personally. Not gonna debate if it's "good" design or not because that would be OPINIONS. I just don't like mechanics that allows you to disrespect and completely turn the momentum even against the opponents safest options that are used exactly to bait mashing. (Safejumps not being safe anymore) In turn forcing you to play an rps that can get either player blown up equally as bad. But atleast theres counterblitz and bs has a ch state. So I can live with that. I'd be 100% cool with bs if it went active from f2.
Dude Butts Posted February 17, 2015 Author Posted February 17, 2015 Here's my main beef with BS so far: The reward is equally as high as the risk, if not a bit higher. After spending a day or so really getting to know and abuse BS, I've learned that, if you have the meter, it's ALWAYS worth it to try in place of any other reversal. BS is really, REALLY good. You get a full combo, and more meter back than you used, all for knowing your opponent would poke. What does this mean for the flow of gg? What does it mean for the neutral game? Plain and simple, it means a game where more time is spent with the opponents staring at each other. What this does then is makes considering an attack, any attack, a huge commitment. The reward forstarting a mixup that leads to a combo is the same or worse than the punishment. This makes the risk of simply poking much much higher than the reward.
Xtra_Zero Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 The reward forstarting a mixup that leads to a combo is the same or worse than the punishment. Basically my beef too. It just seems to encourage BS use over any other kind of counterattack.
Keo-bas Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 I Don't get the get this beef abut Blitzsheild. Man if you guys dislike blitsheild, you must think MB's Shield Mechanics is the devil reincarnated.
Nyaa Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 BS doesn't seem to be a problem at higher play for some reason. Things can seem like a problem in theory but you'd guess it would be used more often if it was that strong.
Xtra_Zero Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 I Don't get the get this beef abut Blitzsheild. Man if you guys dislike blitsheild, you must think MB's Shield Mechanics is the devil reincarnated. MB's shields work completely differently, and I'm not against the concept of Blitz Shield, I just think it doesn't work well in GG.
Keo-bas Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 MB's shields work completely differently, and I'm not against the concept of Blitz Shield, I just think it doesn't work well in GG. Their concept is roughly the same. Both mechanic but the aggressor disadvantage with limited option to counter after successful shield/blitz shield. Main different is type of shield with moons style and each require different approach, still putting the aggressor at a disadvantage. It some respect it its more closer to GGAC+ slash back excluding the feature to do it during guard stun.
Xtra_Zero Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 MB Shield is MUCH closer to AC slashback, and shield bunker is completely different yet again, it's closer to dead angle.
Keo-bas Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 MB Shield is MUCH closer to AC slashback, and shield bunker is completely different yet again, it's closer to dead angle. My apologize I specifically mean shield. Not shield bunker. Doesn't it goes with saying that slash back is roughly the same between the two?
qwerty Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 I think my main issue with BS is that it is a key contributor to my main issue with Xrd as a whole: the pace of the game is minced up. We already see the wars of attrition with YRC all the time, and the same thing is starting to happen with BS. It turns into a contest of "No, you activated my trap card", bringing the game to a screeching halt until someone runs out of meter. It is kind of cool in a way, but it will get old fast, and we won't like it as much as we do now. I think if they made it more similar to Slashback in that you can't use it as a reversal, it would help with that a lot. But then we'd have to see a number of characters (particularly the Valentines) get reworked entirely to account for that. Basically, the game is a slight mess right now, but I am optimistic that a lot of these things will be improved.
Hollysmoke Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 Here's my main beef with BS so far: The reward is equally as high as the risk, if not a bit higher. After spending a day or so really getting to know and abuse BS, I've learned that, if you have the meter, it's ALWAYS worth it to try in place of any other reversal. BS is really, REALLY good. You get a full combo, and more meter back than you used, all for knowing your opponent would poke. What does this mean for the flow of gg? What does it mean for the neutral game? Plain and simple, it means a game where more time is spent with the opponents staring at each other. What this does then is makes considering an attack, any attack, a huge commitment. The reward forstarting a mixup that leads to a combo is the same or worse than the punishment. This makes the risk of simply poking much much higher than the reward. What if Rejected state had a huge prorate attached to it? Or some form of damage and tension gauge penalty so its "Yeah, you got a successful slashback, congratulations. Here's a consolation prize: you get a small combo and a side of fries". That way you can keep the flow of the game still going without it feeling like a broken mechanic. This is in theory though, and in actual play, I personally haven't seen it be bullshit. Even at high level play it's an option but it's pretty negligible. You also have to keep in mind that you're assuming if they land the BS successfully. I've seen it whiff on different levels of play ALL the time. Considering the short window to pull it off, it still has its negatives if you whiff which is something to consider.
Xtra_Zero Posted February 18, 2015 Posted February 18, 2015 What if Rejected state had a huge prorate attached to it? Or some form of damage and tension gauge penalty so its "Yeah, you got a successful slashback, congratulations. Here's a consolation prize: you get a small combo and a side of fries". That way you can keep the flow of the game still going without it feeling like a broken mechanic. Isn't that already offered by the current counterattack options? Or are you saying that you should get a small reward for a successful BS and a bigger reward for a more specific counter (6P, for example)? What about DPs?
Hollysmoke Posted February 18, 2015 Posted February 18, 2015 Isn't that already offered by the current counterattack options? Or are you saying that you should get a small reward for a successful BS and a bigger reward for a more specific counter (6P, for example)? What about DPs? More or less this. Like how Mortal Counters are their own damage state, you can have Rejected! state flagged with its own rewards or penalties. I wouldn't change the hitstun because then it'd just be confusing and you'd have to learn new combos and shit, which is why I suggested the damage penalty. You're basically doing what you're already doing, except less damage. If you aim for the knockdown for oki or a corner carry combo, that's essentially your reward. Not so much the damage. Not sure what you're asking regarding DPs though. Care to explain?
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