DoomieJ Posted September 17, 2009 Posted September 17, 2009 How is Taokaka-Arakune and Taokaka-Jin 4-6? It really does feel a good bit worse than that. Both of these characters have several tools to shut Taokaka down. With Arakune, his evasion, projectiles and sheer range in every direction for air attacks, along with the cloud cutting off movement possibilities for a movement-based character along with massive damage opportunities. And he can do whatever he wants in the air because of Taokaka's weak anti-air game. Just trying to get in against him is risking something with Taokaka. And once the bees are out, Taokaka's guard libra and barrier are gone VERY quickly. With Jin it actually becomes similar. His drives, DPs and air ice swords along with j.B all seem to have huge hitboxes, making evasion pretty difficult. He can also do great damage on Taokaka in a fairly safe manner. He can kill Taokaka's guard libra extremely easily. Most Taokakas I've seen have had tons of problems with most Jin players that know what they're doing. Taokaka-Nu does seem 5-5 though. Taokaka can evade the swords and do great damage off it. But if Nu guesses right in the angle you're coming in, she will do around the same damage. Taokaka-Tager seems better than 6.5-3.5. If you play a patient game, at a range there's nothing Tager can really do to beat her out. As well, her 2D and 6C together will beat out pretty much any air attack he can throw out. He's extremely easy to cross up, and really easy to move around. Pretty much all you have to do is avoid block-strings and 360A's, and you've got the match down. And of course, not rushing in like a madman. That's the way I see some of them for my main. His 360 and 720 are extremely good in this matchup though. and that means trouble for her. you can IB mostly any hit in a string and BOOM fat damage is getting taken. She can cross him up easily, but then again, who cant? it sucks that she doesnt have enough poke range to get away from his 360A too. 5A and 2A beat 2D and 6C.
Xtra_Zero Posted September 17, 2009 Posted September 17, 2009 Nu vs Ara is 65:35? Feels AT LEAST 75:25. And alot of Nu's scores seem 5 points lower than they should be. Pretty looking chart.
XDest Posted September 17, 2009 Posted September 17, 2009 Tao-Ara feels like a 5/5 matchup for me. Tao imo has a strong anti air/air to air game. It's hard to get a cloud out at times against tao. But the sheer damage Arakune can dish out can easily make all the difference. Fairly even imo. Not really. j.A and j.B have low horizontal range as well both lead to low damage. j.C and j.D have low vertical range, even though you CAN get good damage it's rare to line that up properly. Usually trying j.C or j.D means running into a cloud/projectile. That makes it pretty hard for her to do any good air-to-air. 2D has a very specific angle, and will not beat low angle air attacks. Even so, it's still her best tool in this matchup. Even though 6A should beat out low angle air attacks, it rarely does. 6A will usually get beat out by anything. Even if you do, it prorates like hell. About the only good thing Taokaka can do in the matchup is stop Arakune from throwing out his cloud when she's close in the air. Just by the fact that Taokaka cannot move around properly and can't get damage properly in this matchup makes it really lopsided Sure, Taokaka pretty much beats him out on the ground, but you're rarely going to catch him to do that. He's going to keep to the air as much as possible.
Xtra_Zero Posted September 17, 2009 Posted September 17, 2009 On a comparative basis, some of these things just don't make sense. Nu vs Noel and Rachel vs Noel BOTH 55? Rachel vs Bang = 60 while Nu vs Bang = 55? Nu vs Hakumen only 5 points higher than Rachel vs Hakumen? Nu vs Tager = Rachel vs Tager?! Nu vs Jin = Rachel vs Jin?!?! Wat? Also, Carl vs Rachel seems more like 35:65 or better because of Nirvana. As long as Carl has Nirvana, it's very hard for Rachel to close the gap because Nirvana's hitbox is right in the way of her wind+dash arc, and if Rachel is forced to attack Nirvana instead then Rachel immediately has to stop pressure and being on defense is VERY bad for Rachel. This is also why I think some of the Nu vs Rachel complaints are valid, as Nu has an easier time getting out of potential pressure through act pulsar, reversal super, throw that actually leads to damage anywhere, and godC moves.
ocdscale Posted September 17, 2009 Posted September 17, 2009 On a comparative basis, some of these things just don't make sense. Nu vs Noel and Rachel vs Noel BOTH 55? Rachel vs Bang = 60 while Nu vs Bang = 55? Nu vs Hakumen only 5 points higher than Rachel vs Hakumen? Nu vs Tager = Rachel vs Tager?! Nu vs Jin = Rachel vs Jin?!?! Wat? If I'm understanding you right, you don't think Rachel is as hard a matchup as Nu is in those examples you cited. I assume you think Rachel is a bit more balanced and isn't as dominating as Nu is in those matchups. According to the old matchup chart: The Noel pro believes Noel to be 4-6 fighting Rachel and 5-5 against Nu. The Bang pro believes Bang to be 3-7 fighting Rachel and 5-5 against Nu. The Tager pro believes Tager to be equally disadvantaged against both Nu and Rachel. The Jin pro believes Jin to be equally advantaged (!) against both Rachel and Nu. The chart is pretty old, and the pros may have changed their minds since then. But as it stands right now, Rachel is considered extremely strong across the board and it should not be a surprise that she has better matchups than Nu in some cases.
Xtra_Zero Posted September 17, 2009 Posted September 17, 2009 I guess what I'm so surprised about is this: What does Rachel do that Nu doesn't do better?
Raiderwarlord99 Posted September 17, 2009 Posted September 17, 2009 I guess what I'm so surprised about is this: What does Rachel do that Nu doesn't do better? Yea I'm curious about this as well. I really find this hard to believe that Rachel is better than Nu. Nu has so much control over the whole screen it's just not even funny sometimes. I'll post up my reasons for Nu being completely superior in my next post.
zaeris Posted September 18, 2009 Posted September 18, 2009 Yea I'm curious about this as well. I really find this hard to believe that Rachel is better than Nu. Nu has so much control over the whole screen it's just not even funny sometimes. I'll post up my reasons for Nu being completely superior in my next post. That cause there is a difference between American Rachel and Japanese Rachel player ^^, invoke the flames of DL lol. There is a difference in generally between American and Japanese players in generally, lol. One being able to block better. Rachel has more advantageous match up from low to mid tier slaughtering practically everyone, while having a slight disadvantage or even match’s vs Nu. Sword across the screen won't hit people randomly only bad people get hit by swords all the time but I'm going to avoid using the word bad for a while. Nu match up are as worldjem7 wrote you either get in or you don't but characters with good mobility don't find it necessary hard to get in. Trying to get into good Rachel is even harder and if you do get it you are playing into her territory where she's at her strongest with her mix up. And you know what else is good, beating the crap out of carl since he can't pull of a clap loop. god bless Rachel *Wind*
ZONG_one Posted September 18, 2009 Posted September 18, 2009 Yeah, fk Rachel. Rayzyrbyrn was raping me as soon as he started playing full screen at the arcade.. -_-
ocdscale Posted September 18, 2009 Posted September 18, 2009 I guess what I'm so surprised about is this: What does Rachel do that Nu doesn't do better? Rushdown.
TyrantShark Posted September 18, 2009 Posted September 18, 2009 Ara vs. Haku feels much worse than 7-3. I'm willing to say it hasn't changed much since the first tier list and Haks is still floating around 8-2 in that match-up. Never really felt like Haku vs Tager was in Haku's favor at all, so that's accurate to me. However, I didn't expect the drops against Litchi. That match-up has always felt pretty close to me. I'm no pro, just my personal observations.
sogos Posted September 18, 2009 Posted September 18, 2009 before any of you hurfdurfs drop your character for another solely based on this chart, remember that this is only opinion and that there are no 10-0 matchups. Unless you're playing tager v nu/carl or hakumen v arakune 24/7, PLAY SMARTER AND HARDER.
Xtra_Zero Posted September 18, 2009 Posted September 18, 2009 Rushdown. Again, I kind of disagree even with that. Nu can pressure from all over the damn screen. So can Rachel, but Rachel only has instant pressure if she has wind, has a pumpkin out, and it's placed right. Nu has instant pressure practically everywhere, and it all leads to BIG DAMAGE.
zaeris Posted September 18, 2009 Posted September 18, 2009 Again, I kind of disagree even with that. Nu can pressure from all over the damn screen. So can Rachel, but Rachel only has instant pressure if she has wind, has a pumpkin out, and it's placed right. Nu has instant pressure practically everywhere, and it all leads to BIG DAMAGE. There isn't large damage off everywhere it is however possible but never practical in matches... Lets just say it is harder to block rachels games then Nu. Having an advantage vs most of the cast, able to beat arakune and not have any problem vs Carl is quite big on the list. And Rachel vs Nu isn't terrible where its manageable. I will virtually give anything just to beat Carl into a pile of crap.
Mikachiru Posted September 18, 2009 Posted September 18, 2009 That cause there is a difference between American Rachel and Japanese Rachel player ^^, invoke the flames of DL lol. There is a difference in generally between American and Japanese players in generally, lol. One being able to block better. Does this mean that I'm at a disadvantage because I'm not a japanese player? I'm sad... Having an advantage vs most of the cast, able to beat arakune and not have any problem vs Carl is quite big on the list. And Rachel vs Nu isn't terrible where its manageable. I will virtually give anything just to beat Carl into a pile of crap. ...It's not as if Carl doesn't enjoy getting brutalized by Rachel...
KrazySh0t Posted September 18, 2009 Posted September 18, 2009 Does this mean that I'm at a disadvantage because I'm not a japanese player? I'm sad... ...It's not as if Carl doesn't enjoy getting brutalized by Rachel... Japanese players as a whole are considered better because of a superior playing scene. First off they get the game in arcades MONTHS before we do. Second there are many different arcades that they can go to play against other people face to face. Third, these arcades are forever holding tournaments, from small locals to large regionals. Throw in the fact that people online like to spam and do things to manipulate lag to win online so its harder to improve via online play then local play, and basically America as a whole is generally behind the curve and the average American has to overcome a huge skill barrier to hang with Japanese players. From what I understand, because of the large gap between scenes in the US, we made training mode popular.
DoomieJ Posted September 18, 2009 Posted September 18, 2009 before any of you hurfdurfs drop your character for another solely based on this chart, remember that this is only opinion and that there are no 10-0 matchups. Unless you're playing tager v nu/carl or hakumen v arakune 24/7, PLAY SMARTER AND HARDER. tager v bag-o-bees is also pretty rough
Mikachiru Posted September 18, 2009 Posted September 18, 2009 Japanese players as a whole are considered better because of a superior playing scene. First off they get the game in arcades MONTHS before we do. Second there are many different arcades that they can go to play against other people face to face. Third, these arcades are forever holding tournaments, from small locals to large regionals. Throw in the fact that people online like to spam and do things to manipulate lag to win online so its harder to improve via online play then local play, and basically America as a whole is generally behind the curve and the average American has to overcome a huge skill barrier to hang with Japanese players. From what I understand, because of the large gap between scenes in the US, we made training mode popular. I see. I guess there's no helping that...
Matt Posted September 18, 2009 Posted September 18, 2009 before any of you hurfdurfs drop your character for another solely based on this chart, remember that this is only opinion and that there are no 10-0 matchups. Unless you're playing tager v nu/carl or hakumen v arakune 24/7, PLAY SMARTER AND HARDER. I don't get why so many people think that the Hakumen v Arakune matchup is so bad.
MisoSowee Posted September 19, 2009 Posted September 19, 2009 I don't get why so many people think that the Hakumen v Arakune matchup is so bad. You would understand if you were Hakumen
Matt Posted September 19, 2009 Posted September 19, 2009 I play Hakumen too. I play him half of the time now because most people are refusing to play against Arakune.
MisoSowee Posted September 19, 2009 Posted September 19, 2009 I play Hakumen too. I play him half of the time now because most people are refusing to play against Arakune. Lemme rephrase my statement. If you main hakumen vs someone who mains arakune, it's worse :P It gets worse the higher-up you go too, because arakune players learn to get 6c loop out of every nook and cranny.
RedDraken Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 I apologize but can anyone explain to me how to read this chart
Mikachiru Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 I apologize but can anyone explain to me how to read this chart I'll give it a shot. Okay, on the left hand side is the character you've chosen. The top row are the opponents. The box where the your character and your opponent intercept is the match-up ratio thing. The higher the number, the more this battle is in your favor. On the way right is the rating that shows how good your character is altogether. People in the negatives show they do worse more than they do good and vice-versa for the ones in the positive. I'm not sure what the diff. stands for but I think it's the difference between your character and the one above him (I.E. Carl is only 5 points behind Jin, or something). BTW, Grey means top tier Blue means high tier Purple is mid-tier Green is low tier Red is bottom tier Anyway, I might be wrong. Feel free to corrected me...
ocdscale Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 I apologize but can anyone explain to me how to read this chart Ignore the colors for a moment. Lets look at Jin's matchups. First: Use the top chart, which is a matchup chart. The second one appears to try to show you how a character's matchups are distributed. Second: On the top chart, find the Jin row. It's fourth from the top. Third: Go across the row. Higher numbers are better. 50 is an even matchup. Each number corresponds to another character (first column goes to Rachel, second to Nu, etc). What we see is that (according to this matchup chart) Jin is pretty much even across the board. He has nothing worse than a 45-55 matchup against Arakune, nothing better than a 60-40 matchup against Taokaka and Tager. Now lets look at Hakumen. We see that he has particularly bad matchups against Nu and Arakune, a somewhat bad one against Rachel, but is otherwise fairly even with the rest of the cast. The colors help you identify good/bad matchups with a quick glance. Red is really bad, Green is really good, Yellow is relatively even. Edit: Yeah, Diff. looks to be the difference between each character and the one above it. It looks like the OP used Diff. to separate out the tiers, big differences mean a new tier. So Tager is in a tier all by himself.
Recommended Posts