Tari Posted December 1, 2009 Posted December 1, 2009 Just how much damage TD does exactly Tari? It's around 2.5k, if I recall rightly. I'll go find the link in a moment. Edit: Found it. Does less damage than I thought. ... Tempest(4w)：2194 42.75％ Tempest(3w)：1649 32.25％ Tempest(2w)：1430 29.25％ Tempest(1w)：1366 29.25％ ... Ignore the proration percentages. Those are inaccurate. Damages should be correct, though, afaik. Blade has apparently gotten a solid 6k off of TD->BBL or some odd reversal setup, so our supers are still fairly useful, just not after a bunch of prorating moves.
GenoWhirl Posted December 1, 2009 Posted December 1, 2009 Ignoring all the trouble it may be to get thato ut, that 6k sounds so beautiful ;-;
Kuuhaku Posted December 1, 2009 Posted December 1, 2009 Oops. Apparently, I can't read. But... does anyone know how TD does in combos? As a random it doesn't seem that good because it's actually pretty slow and easy to block (who wouldn't block the moment they saw a super flash and a GIANT GII).
GenoWhirl Posted December 1, 2009 Posted December 1, 2009 I would get hit because I would squee at gii But that just applies to me :p Well they said that TD can be get out of 5b right?
Kuuhaku Posted December 1, 2009 Posted December 1, 2009 Actually, I dunno. But... uh... the four wind version is useful because that King George does a delayed hit. Doesn't do shit for damage, but catches people off guard from what I've seen. Though that's only going to work until people get used to it.
Soniti Posted December 2, 2009 Author Posted December 2, 2009 No moves are a good idea for Rachel anymore, ever. First off let me say that 3c9d 5a 5b air combo works. In the few tries i had i couldn't get 3c9d 6c to work and it didn't look like it was going to -- it appeared like they were able to tech sooner than BBCT, which makes sense based on the changes to 3c. A couple other notes -- 5b 6dc j.c land 5b DOES work. Dunno about practical applications or comboability after, only was able to test it once. The special cancel for j.2c is extremely late, so at the point where I'd try to cancel to 236a I would just get counterhit by a move. It's SO unsafe now :<. That out of the way, I just got home from Arcade Infinity and I've lost all of my hype for BBCS. Rachel is SO terrible that I seriously consider her unplayable. As far as I can tell there aren't really any characters that fit my playstyle in the game, so meh. I won 1.5 matches total the entire night, once against Noel and half of a match vs Tager (1st 2 rounds were testing stuff out, only last round was serious). Fighting against just around anyone in the cast save for perhaps Noel (which still doesn't feel like a favorable match but rather a gimp match where I'm behind but it's doable) felt like a ridiculously uphill battle with no good options ever. I have no idea what the fuck arcsys are thinking with Rachel. It just doesn't feel like there is even a way to play her that allows a chance of victory in a competitive setting. Rachel no longer has zoning, mixup and pressure, oki, abare, damage, reasonably usable normals, or usable special moves. She has no way to get in on an opponent and even if she somehow does at BEST she does 2 guard primers and wastes a bunch of wind which won't regenerate for a VERY LONG TIME. At worst she gets counter poked and eats a 4.5k dmg combo. Note that even if Rachel somehow does guard crush an opponent (lol) then she's probably out of wind and the additional proration from guard crush drops Rachel's already pitiful damage to negligible levels. The ONLY way for Rachel to win right now it seems is for her opponent to mess up, repeatedly and in a very punishable way until Rachel's pathetic damage eventually kills them.
ghaleon109 Posted December 2, 2009 Posted December 2, 2009 WTF Soniti was that you with Bang Camaro tonight? 4B still seemed really slow and painfuly obvious, and the dmg on BBL
ghaleon109 Posted December 2, 2009 Posted December 2, 2009 Don't feel too bad, I didn't even win a match tonight But yeah, from what I saw with rachel it just looks more like random hits here and there with the ability to get a few combos in... and with the damage nerf Maybe they'll find something new for her? :8/:
Soniti Posted December 2, 2009 Author Posted December 2, 2009 As she is all I could do is try to win neutral situations with heavily nerfed normals. If i play it that way most matchups are gonna be <3.5 for Rachel.
Mike Z Posted December 2, 2009 Posted December 2, 2009 From Tager's perspective, vs Rachel right now feels like 6.5-3.5. Talk about turning a match around. (O.o) Fork counterhit is terrible, j.2C is terrible, her combos don't hurt and off a 360A he can do 4k + magnetism. I almost feel bad for Rachel players...almost... On the other hand, you can call lightning from cannon shots now, which is pretty cool!
KaiAskari Posted December 2, 2009 Posted December 2, 2009 BB:CS - Where every character other than Rachel has mass amounts of garlic, holy water, blessed crucifixes; has their weapons and drives 'stake empowered', and are all, somehow by blood, related to the Belmont family?
Moogster Posted December 2, 2009 Posted December 2, 2009 Watching this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ToAa1FCOY8 I just don't know anymore. It really is like she doesn't have anything.
kro_ Posted December 2, 2009 Posted December 2, 2009 I managed to get some playing time with Rachel yesterday at AI. Only a few people were there at first but pretty soon there were like 15 people putting up quarters in front of the machine to hold their spot. That meant like a 30 min wait in between turns if you didn't win. Between Kennyon's Litchi and Mike Z's Tager, it was hard to do much if any testing. Ken had like 2 20+ game win streaks and Mike Z had a few double digit streaks as well. Both feel like extremely bad matchups for Rachel. Rachel's 6a will more often than not trade or get stuffed by Litchi's j.b. In the 4 or so matches I played against Ken, I only managed to win a round twice - both by lots of blocking correctly in the corner and time out. Tager has new Rachel specific combos that do some pretty heavy damage and leave you magnetized in a bad position. Those combos take so long he'll probably have spark bolt meter by the time you're out. Considering how long it takes to summon anything, he can hit you with it even if he reacts poorly. Oh, and Tager's j.c actually clashed with my 6a The main nerf I noticed in the transition from CT to CS Rachel is that summoning pumpkin is super slow now and Rachel's 6a seems to have less priority, comes out slower, and takes longer to recover. Both of those things really hurt Rachel's defensive game. There were a lot of situations where I was at a distance where pumpkin would come out in CT, but it doesn't come out in time in CS. Besides resorting to chair or counter assault, there was not much I could do to escape or prevent pressure. I personally feel that Rachel is so bad at neutral situations now that no combos or setups are going to save her from being bottom tier. They won't matter when you can't land them. I spent most of the time thinking on ways to approach and defend rather than combos. j.3db 2b mixups with pumpkin are still pretty effective. Windable frog is also very good. Like if the opponent tries to jump over the frog and IAD at you, you can wind your pumpkin backwards and the frog will also get winded backwards below the opponent. Or 6d236b will make the opponent get hit by a pumpkin, a seed, and then the frog even if the frog was close to you initially. Wind feels like it recovers a little faster while blocking too, though that might be because I spent so much time blocking. Pumpkin travels slower, which makes it easier to follow, but it also has much less range. Lobelia seeds take longer to fire now. Even non-Rachel players can easily notice it. Pole placement feels very important now. 5b > IAD backwards + pumpkin or 5b > IAD backwards + sword iris is pretty useful. Lots of 236a during block strings seems to be the way to go to get poles out on the field and push them back a bit. With pumpkin and frog out, she is still decent. But frog meter makes it very difficult to keep it up. Good luck getting them out without getting counterhit during the summon. Everything - even just throwing out a 6a while they're IADing at you or summoning a pumpkin from 3/4 screen away - feels like a high risk/low reward situation. That's the best way to sum it up. I played Tsubaki too. Short range, not enough priority on her normals, and inability to charge meter or followup knockdowns are some problems. But she's fast and charge-cancel rushdown is really fun. Feels a bit like Melty Blood reverse beat jab whiffs. I'll keep playing both for awhile - at least until I feel comfortable with the new moves, find some decent BnBs, and come up with some sort of gameplan. Living in an area with good competition can be a blessing and a curse. Sometimes, you need that endless line of scrubs or alone time with the computer to stay on the machine, figure stuff out, and get used to the game.
Kuuhaku Posted December 2, 2009 Posted December 2, 2009 Kro- in your opinion, is there any chance that Rachel will have a match up in her favor? Right now her match up chart is looking to be as bad or worse than CT Tager.
kro_ Posted December 2, 2009 Posted December 2, 2009 No, and I don't think she will have any even matchups either. The closest I could think of are Noel and possibly Arakune if you don't get cursed, but that's just based on theory and videos.
Kuuhaku Posted December 2, 2009 Posted December 2, 2009 Noel's already got a 5.5 so far over Rachel. Ugh. Just it's a little frustrating that the only way for Rachel to win is for her opponent to be retarded.
rurouni572 Posted December 2, 2009 Posted December 2, 2009 Oh man...Reading Soniti and Kro's posts are making my heart sink. I was hoping there's still some game breaking secret tactics that we have yet to discover that'll make Rachel viable/CT tier, but seeing those two posts is really disheartening. Is there anything we can do other than to just "deal with it" or pick a new main? In the wave of new 2D fighters, I figure developers should have somewhat of a better idea to balance characters. To make a character almost completely unviable without that being the intention from the beginning (i.e. joke characters) seems so last decade.
Tari Posted December 2, 2009 Posted December 2, 2009 Somewhat unrelated, but if either of you guys (kro and soniti) get a chance to go test her again, blade mentioned that her wind actually seems to recharge faster from an empty meter than from one or two charges. There's apparently a fairly lengthy delay on the recharge when you've got one or two left, but significantly shorter a delay when you have none. He wasn't very certain about it, so more impressions about it would be nice. :P
kro_ Posted December 2, 2009 Posted December 2, 2009 I did a quick test. Used 3 winds right at the start of the match and watched the recovery. The first bar took 3-4 seconds to recover while the last two took between 1-2 seconds to recover. I think it is a little faster. edit: 1-2 seconds each
wuku Posted December 2, 2009 Posted December 2, 2009 From Tager's perspective, vs Rachel right now feels like 6.5-3.5. Talk about turning a match around. (O.o) Fork counterhit is terrible, j.2C is terrible, her combos don't hurt and off a 360A he can do 4k + magnetism. I almost feel bad for Rachel players...almost... On the other hand, you can call lightning from cannon shots now, which is pretty cool! I almost felt bad for Tager players past 1 year but you consistently crushed us and proved matchup chart was meaningless. (If I remember correctly, this matchup was 7-3 Rachel favor). The circumstance is just reversed, it's now our turn to destroy you ..... ONLY IF there is any Rachel player left.
Kuuhaku Posted December 2, 2009 Posted December 2, 2009 Well, wuku, worst case scenario is that we pick up Bang, Litchi, or Ragna like everyone else. But... I guess I might as well sub her as a 3rd sub. Kinda one of those characters I play when I don't mind dying. It's really too bad Rachel doesn't have soviet damage. Even with her being the low tier princess, I can't imagine anyone getting hyped over her winning. I'm pretty sure any match with her as a winner is going to be a slow and tedious match where people will be looking to kill us to prevent more Time Out wins.
Tari Posted December 2, 2009 Posted December 2, 2009 I did a quick test. Used 3 winds right at the start of the match and watched the recovery. The first bar took 3-4 seconds to recover while the last two took between 1-2 seconds to recover. I think it is a little faster. edit: 1-2 seconds each Ah, neat. Any chance you tested it from 0 charge, too? Also, was wondering if air-summoned pumpkin was faster than the ground summon. It almost looks that way in videos, but it's somewhat hard to tell. I'm going to have issues trying not to summon pumpkins all the time. Well, wuku, worst case scenario is that we pick up Bang, Litchi, or Ragna like everyone else. But... I guess I might as well sub her as a 3rd sub. Kinda one of those characters I play when I don't mind dying. It's really too bad Rachel doesn't have soviet damage. She has loli damage. I would laugh so hard if you could juggle Tager with something like j.2c 2c shenanigans. Of the three 'top' characters right now, the only one I can vaguely play is Ragna, and I wanted the new game to come out so I could stop using him. So I'm still going to be subbing Tsubaka.
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