Kuuhaku Posted November 13, 2009 Posted November 13, 2009 Apparently, that's all that Tempest Dahlia is good for, reversal and for stalling time. But if I wanted to turtle all match I'd play Hakumen. Also- Rachel can't turtle because she has only four guard primers. That'd be like trying to turtle with Carl or Taokaka in CT. All you get is a big fat guard crush.
ryokoalways Posted November 13, 2009 Posted November 13, 2009 You could use a reversal, considering you don't have one at the moment. 2C RC isn't good because it can be dodged entirely, fairly easily too if I may add. Rachel's DA isn't all that good either. Startup on the slow side and not very good hitbox. Unfortunately, I was also hoping the super would bring something new to the table. It kind of does, but it still left something to be desired. That being said, I think the new super should be of great use, especially considering you can't just RTSD all day anymore.
Kuuhaku Posted November 20, 2009 Posted November 20, 2009 ... Well, there goes my hope that she'd be better in the release.
Tari Posted November 20, 2009 Posted November 20, 2009 Rachel: Nromals- 5A-unchanged 2A-unchanged 6A-more recovery, less horizontal hitbox 5B-unchanged 2B-unchanged 4B-guard crush 6B-can't cancel into anything, counter hit stun less 5C-guard crush followup-wall bounce on air hit 2C-more horizontal range 3C-unchanged 6C-no more height restriction to j2c, more dmg jA-no longer overhead jB-unchanged jC-unchanged jC(hold)-unchanged j2C- can't cancel into anything in the air, can cancel into specials and 2C upon landing. j2c >land>iris may work. wind recharge weakened from loc test (this is the biggest problem) specials- ground pumpkin-longer startup air pumpkin-longer startup, more recovery pumpkin itself-no longer guaranteed, cancel out projectiles, less hitstop, less movement range, can move multiple times after activation (I think) lobelia-no longer guaranteed ground iris-command change, can call lightning before pole forms air iris-same dmg as ground, moves when wind frog-has guage, less damage, does not jump Can attack while being wind (I think) Super- Baden(both)-less damage, comes out faster, can combo from jC tempest- requires 1 wind, 4 wind dmg 2.2k, can wind to follow up. ...good lord, they felt the need to further nerf her from the loketests? Really? Less wind, less zoning, less rushdown, less damage, slower moves (except 4b and our happily weak BBLs), worse anti-air. I seriously need to try her in the new game, just to see if she's really as bad as she looks on paper, now. In the meantime, though, I guess I'll enjoy playing her in CS.
Soniti Posted November 20, 2009 Author Posted November 20, 2009 Also CH stun from 6a doesn't seem to be as long. You have to just jump and air combo after it. Pumpkin moves slower in release. I think I read that 6b cancels to special moves but no longer 5c.
Kuuhaku Posted November 20, 2009 Posted November 20, 2009 Doesn't that mean that a lot of combos that used to work on all characters because the 6B would push them back farther are now broke? I know with Nu if I wanted to do 5B CDC 236B, I'd pretty much need the second B or the 236B would miss. But Arcsys- seriously why?
Tari Posted November 20, 2009 Posted November 20, 2009 Also CH stun from 6a doesn't seem to be as long. You have to just jump and air combo after it. Pumpkin moves slower in release. I think I read that 6b cancels to special moves but no longer 5c. 6b not cancelling into 5b isn't a very big issue, but... 6a CH is nerfed? 6b CH is nerfed, lobelia CH is nerfed, pumpkin CH is nerfed.... Honestly, if they nerfed up all of Rachel's CH options, zoning capabilities, and so-on, I'm finding it hard to understand how they want us to play her. If they'd just wanted us to zone, I'd be okay with that (sad, but okay), but I just can't make heads or tails of what the end goal with these changes is supposed to be. Still have to actually play the game to say for sure, mind you, but.... :8/: Doesn't that mean that a lot of combos that used to work on all characters because the 6B would push them back farther are now broke? I know with Nu if I wanted to do 5B CDC 236B, I'd pretty much need the second B or the 236B would miss. But Arcsys- seriously why? You can alternatively start from 2b, then go into 5b, which pushes Nu out far enough, or do the j.3db j.c (because we can't j.2c mixup) back into 5b, or 5b 6cd j.c. But yeah, lots of small, irritating changes adds up into one huge, annoying mess.
metsuke Posted November 20, 2009 Posted November 20, 2009 6a CH dash 5b works in the corner, according to one of the videos. I suspect it would actually work everywhere, but people are missing the dash timing because of the longer recovery on the 6a. Why so glum? Winning with Rachel is going to be a huge challenge now, and everybody loves a good challenge, right?
killionaire Posted November 20, 2009 Posted November 20, 2009 6a CH dash 5b works in the corner, according to one of the videos. I suspect it would actually work everywhere, but people are missing the dash timing because of the longer recovery on the 6a. Why so glum? Winning with Rachel is going to be a huge challenge now, and everybody loves a good challenge, right? Depends on how things works out.. It will either be challenging or frustrating.. I'm totally all for having a good challenge, but sometimes, it can get frustrating if everything you attempt somehow doesn't work... In fact, for CS, I should start subbing Haku in case I get into one of those days.. Should have probably done it for CT too, given that I have already run into one of those days...
Tari Posted November 20, 2009 Posted November 20, 2009 6a CH->5b still works? That's nice. I'm assuming that 6a CH->6a isn't in anymore, though? If so, we lose a bunch of easy BBL setups. 6a CH -> 6a3214d6c will be out and replaced by 6a CH->5b j.b j.c 2d 6a3214d6c. Can't even do the more damaging ...JC j.2dc j.c dash 6a32146c variation of that, either.
Soniti Posted November 20, 2009 Author Posted November 20, 2009 So from what I'm seeing, frog doesn't hit otg people anymore. YAY BACK TO (almost) LOKE TEST 1 NERF STATUS!
Tari Posted November 20, 2009 Posted November 20, 2009 So from what I'm seeing, frog doesn't hit otg people anymore. YAY BACK TO (almost) LOKE TEST 1 NERF STATUS! I'll still play her, though, because she's lo--. Edit: Just some comments on this video, in no particular order: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm8866129 Pumpkin is suuuuper slow to come out in comparison to how it is now. Very punishable.236a looks the same as it is now.6a doesn't seem very nerfed.George's hitbox sucks. Frog combos are out (at least with 3c236a).George doesn't seem to activate if opponent is airborne.George prorates pretty hard.George can still eat the ice swords.Wind recharge rate is not significantly slower, and is still fairly fast when recharging third and fourth wind stocks.BBL does a lot less damage.Airborne seeds disappear on hit.4b is not significantly faster.j.b j.c j.236a air combo is still around.Aerial pumpkin is somewhat slower, but not by much.Aerial frog looks to be pretty much the same as it is now.Bat seeds deflect off of ice swords very flashily.Pumpkin ground follow-up combos from 5cdc don't work (winded aerial combo might work).Tempest Dahlia electric stun does not last for a very significant amount of time. And for reference, just so people can disprove me more easily, the notes from while I was watching: 00:56 - Holy crud, a full extra twirl on the pumpkin? 01:02 - a-lobelia looks about the same. 01:22 - 6a looks like it's not experienced a significant nerf 01:56 - George's hitbox is significantly smaller. Looks like he'll basically only activate on grounded chars. 02:05 - BBL does much less damage (we have the actual value here somewhere) 02:08 - George prorates very hard. Buffed 6c does fairly minimal damage after frog proration. 02:35 - Pumpkin not safe. 02:41 - Pumpkin not safe. 02:57 - 5b still works after 6a CH off the ground. Not sure about anti-air CH. 03:23 - No j.236a after j.c? No longer combos? (looks like it would, can you no longer cancel to j.236a?) 03:28 - Again opts for something other than j.236a. Air pumpkin and frog not too much slower. 03:32 - Airborne seeds disappear on hit. 03:55 - Very unsafe pumpkin 03:59 - Frog doesn't combo on Jin, at least. 04:11 - Wind recharge doesn't look super gimped, but it is somewhat noticeable. 04:29 - Frog does not OTG combo, at least not with 3c (1-hit) 236a. 04:38 - Tempest Dahlia electric stun does not last for a very significant amount of time. 04:39 - 4b is not significantly faster. 04:47 - Lobelias will be knocked back by other projectiles. 04:52 - George can still eat ice swords. 05:01 - Pumpkin ground combo from 5cdc no longer works. Maybe can follow up with winded air combo(?). 05:27 - j.236a after j.c. Still comboes~.
DC Posted November 21, 2009 Posted November 21, 2009 You know... I foresaw this happening to Rachel so I picked up Noel so I could play her in the new game too. But they fucked Noel almost as bad as they fucked Rachel... D:
metsuke Posted November 22, 2009 Posted November 22, 2009 So from what I'm seeing, frog doesn't hit otg people anymore. YAY BACK TO (almost) LOKE TEST 1 NERF STATUS! While frog combos may not work, airthrow triggers frog in this vid against Noel.
NasaXnieru Posted November 22, 2009 Posted November 22, 2009 While frog combos may not work, airthrow triggers frog in this vid against Noel. I'm guessing this is the height of optimism for CS Rachel Not to whine but I'm failing to see some of the logic in certain character changes, but then again it could just be my western eyes. I'll give it a few weeks to see if she's really THAT bad. Hey...Tsubaki~
Konton Posted November 22, 2009 Posted November 22, 2009 Rachel: 5B>5C(D)C>frog>3C>super jump(D)>j2C(D,lvl3)>land delay A lobelia>5B>double lili>frog>3C for 4695 5A-200(1) 2A-150 6A-520 5b-400 3B-360 4B-600 6B-540 3C-468(3)／716(5) jB-360 pumpkin-300 a lobelia-450 b/c lobelia-550 baden lily (itself)-1295 total baden lily (pole)-1586 total tempest(4w)-2023 tempest(3w)-1520 tempest(2w)-1313 tempest(1w)-1249 throw-1000 Rachel can break 4k.... with 100% meter.
ryokoalways Posted November 22, 2009 Posted November 22, 2009 Rachel can break 4k.... with 100% meter. no, that's lily + a pole. Not two supers.
Konton Posted November 22, 2009 Posted November 22, 2009 Oh. That's a relief. Very good news. To clarify, this means frog combos ARE still in?
ryokoalways Posted November 22, 2009 Posted November 22, 2009 A friend of mine, the rachel player, says the combo seems to be corner only. The JP BBS didn't specify, but he believes that's the only way this combo will work. So frog combos may only work in the corner. Again more instances will be needed for cross-checking.
Tari Posted November 22, 2009 Posted November 22, 2009 While frog combos may not work, airthrow triggers frog in this vid against Noel. That's sorta interesting. It's like George's hitbox is right above the ground, so it misses OTG characters and jumping characters, but hits falling ones.... Also, wallbouce from hitting Noel in the air with 5cc was pretty interesting. A friend of mine, the rachel player, says the combo seems to be corner only. The JP BBS didn't specify, but he believes that's the only way this combo will work. So frog combos may only work in the corner. Again more instances will be needed for cross-checking. 3c to frog might work, since it has more hits than 3c->236a, which caused George to whiff on Jin in the corner of the other video. Might've been bad frog placement, though.
Lastblade Posted November 22, 2009 Posted November 22, 2009 After playing rachel (and regrettibly deciding to go to maining carl instead) today in CS, unless theres some kind of powerful gameplay in the future, she isn't doing that well. She has a hard time dealing with agressive Ragna, Tsubaki, Jin, and Hazama that have quick reactions to an extent (even more so than in CT) and even though my zoning game isn't top of the line, it'll be an uphill battle regardless. the new tempest super is good and bad imo. quick enough start up to punish rushins and has full invincibility. And unless it was already noted, Tempest costs no wind to use.
Brotrr Posted November 23, 2009 Posted November 23, 2009 Rachel doesn't look THAT bad from the latest batch of videos, but her damage output IS a little low.
Lastblade Posted November 23, 2009 Posted November 23, 2009 its not a matter of LOOKING bad, I've been PLAYING CS rachel the past 2 days man.
ryokoalways Posted November 23, 2009 Posted November 23, 2009 When a character has to go for time out to win, it speaks volume. RIP
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