tuka Posted February 25, 2010 Posted February 25, 2010 Match-up table says she's +0.75. But that aside, she's not high-mid because of Taokaka (she keeps her advantage from CT, not to mention more damaging combos) and Carl (getting out of Nirvana pressure is HARD, especially when your normals suck).
ZONG_one Posted February 25, 2010 Posted February 25, 2010 Match-up table says she's +0.75. But that aside, she's not high-mid because of Taokaka (she keeps her advantage from CT, not to mention more damaging combos) and Carl (getting out of Nirvana pressure is HARD, especially when your normals suck). Yes, but Carl isn't mid tier. He's A-tier, so he's not a part of the discussion. And you have a dp now, you're fine. And I'm not sure about all around game for Tao, but from what I can see, her only viable damage option comes from taunt loop. Yes, you can get it off of almost anything, but the execution has to be there. And her advantage may from CT may carry over, but her matchups with other characters are way harder that Lambda's. I dunno. I don't main Lambda all, but I feel like things are way easier when you're playing a better character. And as for beating scrubs with mid tier characters you don't main, doing it with Lambda is probably easier that doing it with anyone else. IMO, that makes her high mid tier, even if it's just a slight advantage over other characters. I will agree that there isn't much difference in characters who aren't top 4, but the difference is there, however small it might be.
pulsr Posted February 25, 2010 Posted February 25, 2010 She'd be A+ tier if it wasn't for bang/tao as far as i can tell. bang drops her like 3-4 points so does Tao
zaeris Posted February 25, 2010 Posted February 25, 2010 Yes, but Carl isn't mid tier. He's A-tier, so he's not a part of the discussion. And you have a dp now, you're fine. And I'm not sure about all around game for Tao, but from what I can see, her only viable damage option comes from taunt loop. Yes, you can get it off of almost anything, but the execution has to be there. And her advantage may from CT may carry over, but her matchups with other characters are way harder that Lambda's. I dunno. I don't main Lambda all, but I feel like things are way easier when you're playing a better character. And as for beating scrubs with mid tier characters you don't main, doing it with Lambda is probably easier that doing it with anyone else. IMO, that makes her high mid tier, even if it's just a slight advantage over other characters. I will agree that there isn't much difference in characters who aren't top 4, but the difference is there, however small it might be. Highlighting nonsensical remark, that probably one of the most non-intelligent things I've ever read. Since you can beat them (scrubs) with anyone if you know a little BnB however one you’re up again people who know what they are doing lambda is a poor choice. Lambda has no damage unless you can pull of her more technical combo. With that said she's been listed in famitsu as high mid tier and most people agree. Is there anything important left to say I wonder? Lambda's okay though, she's as mid-tier as it gets and her only horrible match-up is with Bang (sweet sweet irony :P). I don't see the irony as it’s a know to players that bang has an even match up with Nu in ct, BB CS just realized that gap and made it worst due to characters being buff and nerf. This is essentially an outcome that was foresaw when you kept everything in equilibrium and change the characters frame data.
Antihippy Posted February 25, 2010 Posted February 25, 2010 2C was Nu's "Panic Move", chances are that no matter where you pull it will be as simple as 2C = win. And calling Nu fair... Being one of the 3 gods automatically denounces that, even if you look at it from the point of only those three, she rapes Arakune's ass and has an even match (IIRC) with Rachel. Her only bad match-up was with Taokaka, and that was only 0.5 to her favor. Lambda's okay though, she's as mid-tier as it gets and her only horrible match-up is with Bang (sweet sweet irony :P). Everybody except for ragna and litch has a horrible matchup with bang. And I pretty much hate playing carl now. Bang's not too bad compared to carl. And yeah, why irony? He's one of the better characters to go toe to toe with Nu in CT actually.
tuka Posted February 25, 2010 Posted February 25, 2010 Well I said that from my personal experience and I can pretty much tell you that since I discovered the holy wonders of CH 2C and 5000-6000 Damage combos from any situation the 5.5-4.5 match-up has gone waaay up in my favor. Everybody except for ragna and litch has a horrible matchup with bang. And I pretty much hate playing carl now. Bang's not too bad compared to carl. IIRC Bang-Lambda is 6.5-3.5 and I do remember it's his most extreme advantage out them all, so I guess the rest are about 6-4 or 5.5-4.5. Anyway the game IS pretty balanced aside from some specific match-ups, and that's pretty good for a second revision. Take in mind GG had like a million until it got it right so I think we are going in the right direction.
Halcyone3 Posted February 25, 2010 Posted February 25, 2010 Everybody except for ragna and litch has a horrible matchup with bang. And I pretty much hate playing carl now. Bang's not too bad compared to carl. And yeah, why irony? He's one of the better characters to go toe to toe with Nu in CT actually. wasnt bang THE least advantgeous match for nu?
Arcade Fire87 Posted February 25, 2010 Posted February 25, 2010 Wow, Bang v Lambda matchup is that bad now? Urg. Bang was personally my hardest matchup in CT. Rushing Bangs made things easier, but apparently everything gets outprioritized by him now so he needs to be zoned, not sure how that's going. If 3C and 2C are nerfed, that makes things pretty shitty too 2C was godly in CT, a shame it's bad in CS now. 2B/6A are still decent attacks though rushing in though. But, is Lambda not really supposed to rush in for close melee until she lands drive/pulsars her way in?
St1ckBuG Posted February 25, 2010 Posted February 25, 2010 wasnt bang THE least advantgeous match for nu? Litchi was her worst matchup (tied with herself) at 5-5. The Litchi matchup got worse mostly because her average damage went up and Lambda's went down (from Nu that is). Litchi still retained her really good normals and her pressure got even better. The Bang matchup got worse because he closed the damage gap and can now combo off of pretty much anything. Everything else he kept... Tao? I haven't played a good Tao yet, but that could change this weekend. It's probably a stupid matchup though. As far as normals go, anything into 5B is your best bet as far as blockstrings AND damage go. On a side note, everyone should listen to Xie and pulsr as far as Lambda goes. They're not stupid.
tuka Posted February 25, 2010 Posted February 25, 2010 We should all listen to each other since we're a community And I didn't see THEM write down the whole combo thread *j/k*
pulsr Posted February 25, 2010 Posted February 25, 2010 My honest opinion, she beats everyone but Carl Tao and Bang. Those 3 are the only hard ones she actually has to worry about. Carl isn't TOO bad, but it takes some creativity to figure out how you need to fight that match. Tao is manageable cause of her tiny ass life bar, but it is an incredible pain to keep up with her. Bang will literally just mash over you and you will lose.
ZONG_one Posted February 25, 2010 Posted February 25, 2010 Highlighting nonsensical remark, that probably one of the most non-intelligent things I've ever read. Since you can beat them (scrubs) with anyone if you know a little BnB however one you’re up against people who know what they are doing lambda is a poor choice. Lambda has no damage unless you can pull of her more technical combo. With that said she's been listed in famitsu as high mid tier and most people agree. Is there anything important left to say I wonder? A walking contradiction, you are, sir. Umm.. ok. If you don't know any of Litchi's bnb's, but you can j.B > j.C > dj.B > dj.C and get 2k everytime. Beating scrubs doesn't make you higher tier, but not having to work as hard as other characters for your damage does. Especially if you're debating about characters in the same tier. Higher B tier is higher B tier, even if it's B tier. And I haven't read the Famitsu article, but apparently I was right, wasn't I? Don't disagree with me, and then site something that does, and agree with that. And as for you wanting to be an asshole or something, I'll let it slide, but I'm going to call you on it regardless. My honest opinion, she beats everyone but Carl Tao and Bang. Those 3 are the only hard ones she actually has to worry about. This.
germanturkey Posted February 25, 2010 Posted February 25, 2010 Tao i don't think is that bad from what i've seen, but Carl and Bang are pretty torrid for her. Carl can nullify more than half her game by pressing D, and Bang can just beat her senseless. well, aside from Tao's taunt combo.
ZONG_one Posted February 25, 2010 Posted February 25, 2010 Tao i don't think is that bad from what i've seen, but Carl and Bang are pretty torrid for her. Carl can nullify more than half her game by pressing D, and Bang can just beat her senseless. well, aside from Tao's taunt combo. Tackle C Nirvana if you know you won't get punished. I'm pretty sure it puts a significant dent in her meter. And Carl has shit health, quit complaining.
zaeris Posted February 25, 2010 Posted February 25, 2010 A walking contradiction, you are, sir. Umm.. ok. If you don't know any of Litchi's bnb's, but you can j.B > j.C > dj.B > dj.C and get 2k everytime. Beating scrubs doesn't make you higher tier, but not having to work as hard as other characters for your damage does. Especially if you're debating about characters in the same tier. Higher B tier is higher B tier, even if it's B tier. And I haven't read the Famitsu article, but apparently I was right, wasn't I? Don't disagree with me, and then site something that does, and agree with that. And as for you wanting to be an asshole or something, I'll let it slide, but I'm going to call you on it regardless. This. Lol, contradiction, I don't see? I only agree with famitsu as they're provided valid points and an in-depth character analysis while what you've summed up is a difference in skills level (beating scrubs) and not highlighting a characters strength, you might have arrived at the right conclusion but the way your methodology came about using the difference in skills as a pivotal means this is where i disagree. What you've shown is a lack of comprehension in understanding what tiers mean as its an indication of a characters potential encompassing everything underlying and all match up taking everything in equal and not comparing players knowledge or technical handling of their characters. I merely pointed out that beating scrubs doesn't provide any concrete evidence in tier listing. Beating scrub does not enforce a view, your own personal view is irrelevant based on experience of beating low skills players where a majority of Japanese player having put fourth a view across. BnB doesn't mean optimal combo at whole times, even A B C special is a BnB. A scrub is someone who doesn't know a the game mechanic and will fight blindly in most cases doing what they believe is correct. This contradict the views of tiers since it doesn't analysis players strength but characters strength, beating scrubs plays no part. Are you going to be a joker and tell people that because you can beat people who don't know how to fully play their characters it is somehow creditable and logical in assessing Lamdba placement. Why don't you fight someone who mains bang, litchi, noel, hazama, hakumen ectera then tell me what tiers means. I dunno. I don't main Lambda all, but I feel like things are way easier when you're playing a better character. And as for beating scrubs with mid tier characters you don't main, doing it with Lambda is probably easier that doing it with anyone else. IMO, that makes her high mid tier, even if it's just a slight advantage over other characters. repeat, scrubs play no part in tier analysis this where your wrong just because you can get away from a lot of things and not be punished for it doesn't make your reasoning sound. I could come up with the lame conclusion if i just use overheads in BB:CS and no one could block them does that mean the character I'm using is higher tier because people can't block? how is lamdba a better character? because the people you play don't know how to get in and face rape. And No! an easier to use characters does not indicated a tier position, Guilty gear has already proven this with Eddie and slayers coming on as extremely technical and ahrd to use character, mentioning the easiness of characters usage is also wrong. Tiers has always been about being able to use your characters full potential against another. p.s why don't you amuse me some more, i can't wait to see what you come up with next
ZONG_one Posted February 25, 2010 Posted February 25, 2010 Beating scrubs wasn't my complete basis for my analysis. You've failed to understand that. Actually, you've failed to understand a lot of what I said. And as for this: p.s why don't you amuse me some more, i can't wait to see what you come up with next You and I both know this thread isn't the place for that. Or atleast I know it.. Show some respect for others by not taking an immediate chance to get a thread closed. To get so offended by an opinion blows my mind. And btw, I play Carl, so I think I'd understand that an easy to play character doesn't make them automatically better. Thanks for that revelation. EDIT- if you want to continue, PM me. I'm sure others would appreciate it.
zaeris Posted February 25, 2010 Posted February 25, 2010 A thread close is only caused by jokers providing laughable post. Did I say anything laughable or do you have something rebuttable you find in my post. I've done my part and clearly stated why and even provided constructed statement as to why I thought you came about the process erroneously. no, it wasn't your complete basis using scrubs but still a a flawed view using it and I'm telling you that wrong. If you've only mention others things like the ability to generate damage, the option lambda can use when defending or her oki or pressure game I would be more lenient and would just accept. p.s I'm clearly showing my respect and actually writing something constructive unlike someone writing "You fail in reading hahaha" zzzzzzzzzzzzzz wtfbbqomg.
ZONG_one Posted February 25, 2010 Posted February 25, 2010 A thread close is only caused by jokers providing laughable post. no, it wasn't your complete basis using scrubs but still a a flawed view using it and I'm telling you that wrong. I've only had mention others things like the ability to generate damage, the option lambda can use when defending or her oki or pressure game I would be more lenient. Nothing was laughable, but I felt it was becoming disrespectful. Which leads to flame. Which leads to people like Spirit Juice becoming frustrated about my posts. And I'd hate to create work for the mods. And I don't have much to say about her oki, I haven't played her long enough. It doesn't seem great, but her mobility somewhat makes up for that. I won't call that a plus, though. Easily accessible damage in comparison to other characters, is a +. And by this I only mean, that it's relatively easy to consistently do 4k from multiple set ups. Does this mean she is great? No, of course not, but it does help. Example: If getting hit by anything from Bang didn't mean free 3k+ for him, he wouldn't be nearly as good. Granted, that's not why he's top tier, but it's a big part of it. As for pressure game.. with everything safe on block, (or relatively safe,) you won't really be punished unless you're doing moves you should never do in a block string. Yeah, DP's are always going to be a danger, but that's a given for any character. Her mixup game is also good because of this, even though she lacks overheads. This is on the + side, IMO. And now.. her DP. It's amazing. Definite +. This might be her only thing decent about her oki, now that I think about it. Also, lightening up on the antagonistic attitude might make you some more friends. Just a thought.. EDIT- p.s I'm clearly showing my respect and actually writing something constructive unlike someone writing "You fail in reading hahaha" zzzzzzzzzzzzzz wtfbbqomg. I'm not sure if I would say you're going out of your way to show any respect. But I will admit that you are being constructive, and I appreciate that.
zaeris Posted February 25, 2010 Posted February 25, 2010 Nothing was laughable, but I felt it was becoming disrespectful. Which leads to flame. Which leads to people like Spirit Juice becoming frustrated about my posts. And I'd hate to create work for the mods. And I don't have much to say about her oki, I haven't played her long enough. It doesn't seem great, but her mobility somewhat makes up for that. I won't call that a plus, though. Easily accessible damage in comparison to other characters, is a +. And by this I only mean, that it's relatively easy to consistently do 4k from multiple set ups. Does this mean she is great? No, of course not, but it does help. Example: If getting hit by anything from Bang didn't mean free 3k+ for him, he wouldn't be nearly as good. Granted, that's not why he's top tier, but it's a big part of it. As for pressure game.. with everything safe on block, (or relatively safe,) you won't really be punished unless you're doing moves you should never do in a block string. Yeah, DP's are always going to be a danger, but that's a given for any character. Her mixup game is also good because of this, even though she lacks overheads. This is on the + side, IMO. And now.. her DP. It's amazing. Definite +. This might be her only thing decent about her oki, now that I think about it. Also, lightening up on the antagonistic attitude might make you some more friends. Just a thought.. EDIT- I'm not sure if I would say you're going out of your way to show any respect. But I will admit that you are being constructive, and I appreciate that. I can accept those point, they are all valid concerning the characters itself... congrats And I do sincerely mean it since it is about those area and other factors. side note: Dp is a plus and minus much like spark bolt where you have a meter while more lenient, its a good move by itself but not spam-able. If people play more cautiously and avoid it like sparkbolt it becomes a decent tool only because you can't spam it like other DP in this game where it is a continuous threat but rather a threat that occurs once in every 10 sec. Also, lightening up on the antagonistic attitude might make you some more friends. Just a thought.. If everyone started playing Guilty gear again I would.... but for now I'm having fun on the forums.
Antihippy Posted February 26, 2010 Posted February 26, 2010 Her mixup game is also good because of this, even though she lacks overheads. This is on the + side, IMO. Er, what. 4B while being unsafe as hell on block is still fast enough to catch them off-guard or fish for counterhits, especially if you meaty it. Meanwhile 2147D/DC is a fast, safe overhead which breaks guard and DC gives it a low/throw mixup as well. Definitely not lacking in that department. Both lead to pretty good damage/situations.
tuka Posted February 26, 2010 Posted February 26, 2010 4B is MEH. 2147D is great, especially in mix-ups, 2147D~C is godlike for mix-ups. Don't know about the "pretty good damage" part though, non-CH 4B is followed by C moves that do lame ass damage in CS (on CH you have a nicer combo) and 2147D requires meter if you want to combo after it. Overall she kinda sucks in the overhead department, but she has other tools.
Antihippy Posted February 26, 2010 Posted February 26, 2010 Looking at the combo list you can get 3k from a non CH. CH you can get 3.9k. Definitely good. I know the 4B>cross under>2DD etc. does pretty good damage. I would definitely use it as a risky mixup or when I have meter to make it safe. With a move as good as 2147D/DC it's pretty much fair enough that you need meter. You can do 2147D>RC>5DD>236C right? I'm can't remember. I still don't get why she sucks at overheads though. She has pretty much one of the best ones seeing that it's fast and also act as an awesome mixup tool, with the only bad thing is that you need meter to do significant damage with it. They're about average to good compared to the rest of the blazblue cast. There's also 4D, which has good high/low/throw mixup combined with 236A/B from far/mid. I really like her mixup options in CS.
zaeris Posted February 26, 2010 Posted February 26, 2010 4B is MEH. 2147D is great, especially in mix-ups, 2147D~C is godlike for mix-ups. Don't know about the "pretty good damage" part though, non-CH 4B is followed by C moves that do lame ass damage in CS (on CH you have a nicer combo) and 2147D requires meter if you want to combo after it. Overall she kinda sucks in the overhead department, but she has other tools. ?? I get at least 2.7k from a 4b combo non counter in bb cs 4b dash (cross over) 2dd 6c dash 2dd 2147D 5dd 6dd 2dd sj jdd jc jdd j214d learn not to use her standard jc combo. Antihippy already said what i wanted to say, its like all overhead decent and goes into decent/good damage, very few people have an overhead that goes into good damage, mostly the TT. Jin is rather a sad case but that's fine
tuka Posted February 26, 2010 Posted February 26, 2010 4B > 2C > j.C > j.2C > dj.C > j.2C > j.214D - 2835 Damage CH 4B > Dash Cross Over > 2DD > 6C > Dash > 2DD > 2147D > 5DD > 6DD > 2DD > j.DD > dj.2DD > j.214D - 3421 Damage The second combo is possible from non CH 4B but it's very spacing specific. Anyway I'd rather use other things over 4B, it's very high risk and for 3400 damage (and that's moslty on CH) it's also a pretty low reward. The meter it will cost me to RC it on block could be better used.
ZONG_one Posted February 26, 2010 Posted February 26, 2010 I can accept those point, they are all valid concerning the characters itself... congrats And I do sincerely mean it since it is about those area and other factors. side note: Dp is a plus and minus much like spark bolt where you have a meter while more lenient, its a good move by itself but not spam-able. Well great, I'm glad we got that out of the way. And I see how her dp is a minus. Anyone who baits it is going to take your best option out of your defense for a while. This is why her dp isn't as good as Ragna. But when you do hit, especially on CH, you get free 4.5k-ish (probably w/ meter), which is good, right? Er, what. 4B while being unsafe as hell on block is still fast enough to catch them off-guard or fish for counterhits, especially if you meaty it. Meanwhile 2147D/DC is a fast, safe overhead which breaks guard and DC gives it a low/throw mixup as well. Definitely not lacking in that department. Both lead to pretty good damage/situations. And I didn't mean literally she has no overheads. But seriously, TK Scorpion is her only good one, IMO. People can block 4B easily on reaction, unless your timing is stellar. It's not like don't ever use it, but I'd use it on their wake up before I'd use it in a block string. Especially when 6B and 2C being jump cancelable into TK Scorpion or TK feint > low. Which is great mixups in itself. Maybe that's stupid, but that's just me. And @ Zaeris: I'm not a GG player. But I understand your frustration. And I know enough GG players to have to listen to this all the time. lol.
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