[CS1] Lambda General Discussion

[kenja0]

This isn't going anywhere. =.=

[Skye]

Debates often don't.

I suppose I'll leave you guys where I found you.

[tuka]

j.214D isn't that hard to react to once you get all the visual and audio cues, same with all other overheads.

The idea is not how fast they are but how and when you use them, even a slow mix-up is deadly in the right situation.

I didn't go through everything you talked about but I guess someone already mentioned the fact that you need to jump or TK before the attack, so that's a few more frames for the count.

[Skye]

I love this guy.

~Leaving.

[kenja0]

Speaking of overheads. 4B. When 4B or not 4B- that is the question...

[tuka]

Something > 3C > 236A > 4B is nice for catching them on wake up.

Dash > 4B and let the momentum carry the second hit. Pretty risky though.

Never in a block string, not worth it.

If you have meter go wild.

[Antihippy]

Meaty 4B is good once in awhile.

I like using 4B to fish for counterhits, buts it's not... recommended. :P

[Overheat]

Something that can be practiced, but you'd have to have a very good knowledge of 4B's hit-box, and your opponent's hit-box.

2147D~C

Your opponent sees the TK feint and blocks low.

4B

If spaced correctly, the first hit of 4B whiffs, and the second hit moves slightly forward, launching your opponent into the air!

Risky? Yes. Easy to do? With practice. Safe? With 50 Heat. Are there better options? Probably.

Also, do 3C when your opponent is downed until they know to wake-up by blocking low. Then dash up to them, 4B (whiff first hit) to mask the first hit.

I like using 4B to fish for counterhits, buts it's not... recommended. :P

I like doing that too :D

[zaeris]

I suppose I'll come back when you guys can handle a debate on overheads (lol) without getting salty.

I read about George Orwell's Politics and the English Language, although I agree with some point and disagree on others. Just to clarify 17 frames trends on the point of being react-able and being hard to react. More or less ask yourself can you block overhead? depending on the speed of the start up the answer is yes and no. I've yet to seen nu Tk crescent being blocked all the time in a japanese vid and I'm for one believe they've done more training than we could in terms in reaction. But like I said more power to you if you can.

practicing a combo and reaction are different since kara are only a memorization of input there is little element of reaction somewhat. Hence I found your example poor. But if you want to say practice help sure... although I will still disagree. As for being salty.. zenzen

[kenja0]

236A>4B? I don't know, 214D or 236B just sounds much more appealing, but conditioning your opponent doesn't sound bad.

I just dislike how gimmicky it is- combo starter on low counter hit only...

The only thing that makes 4B risky is that dumb first hit.

[tuka]

Never said it was good, it's a viable mix-up, use it or not that's up to you.

And I'll never understand the use of the word "gimmicky" around here...

[kenja0]

Silly tricks that work on low level play.

Something like Ice Car spam in CT.

On competitive play, people know how to punish it.

So those are the only applications for it? It'll beat something like Bang's 3C, right?

[zaeris]

Never said it was good, it's a viable mix-up, use it or not that's up to you.

And I'll never understand the use of the word "gimmicky" around here...

I will probably summed up gimmicks as a bad mix up or something people don't really use or see often because its not recommended.

Silly tricks that work on low level play.

Something like Ice Car spam in CT.

On competitive play, people know how to punish it.

So those are the only applications for it? It'll beat something like Bang's 3C, right?

Ice Car spam is not a gimmick it is just people being bad at attack or blocking since the move istelf is punishable beside A version without IB but then people should be able to IB and punish it.

gimmick = noel CS

that what it currently is when you vs noel lol.

[tuka]

I have no idea how you just compared an Ice Car spammer with one of Lambda's viable mix-ups (that if I recall correctly is sometimes being used in Japanese competitive play).

Of course people know how to punish it, because unlike 236B or 214D, it's not safe at all.

That's the whole point of a mix-up, high risk high reward and vice versa, granted I'd much rather get a 214D combo but the chances of an opponent being hit by that on wake up are much smaller than the chance he'll get hit by 236A > 4B.

Personally I almost never use it, I mostly use 214D and continue with the pressure. But with that in mind, when I do use it, it often catches them off guard.

[Antihippy]

Silly tricks that work on low level play.

Something like Ice Car spam in CT.

On competitive play, people know how to punish it.

So those are the only applications for it? It'll beat something like Bang's 3C, right?

Low invincible, so yeah.

[Skye]

I read about George Orwell's Politics and the English Language, although I agree with some point and disagree on others.

I should totally quiz you.

Anyway, let me do this math for you.

You said average visual reaction time is 190 milliseconds.

There are 1000 milliseconds in a second.

In BB, there are 60 frames in a second, so the bets way to map this out is to divid 1000 by 60, simply put to break up the milliseconds into 1/60th increments.

With that, 16.6666667 milliseconds equates to one frame of BB action.

multiply by 17

17 frames 283.333334 milliseconds. longer than it takes for average reaction time, yes?

Again add in a 4 frame jump for Tking, 350.000001 millisecond for 21 frames of start up, almost twice the average reaction time.

Hell lets even look at a fast overhead, TK GH, 12 frames, plus 4 frames jump start up.

233.333334

That's all more that your average 190ms.

The power of science, amirite?

[zaeris]

I should totally quiz you.

Anyway, let me do this math for you.

You said average visual reaction time is 190 milliseconds.

There are 1000 milliseconds in a second.

In BB, there are 60 frames in a second, so the bets way to map this out is to divid 1000 by 60, simply put to break up the milliseconds into 1/60th increments.

With that, 16.6666667 milliseconds equates to one frame of BB action.

multiply by 17

17 frames 283.333334 milliseconds. longer than it takes for average reaction time, yes?

Again add in a 4 frame jump for Tking, 350.000001 millisecond for 21 frames of start up, almost twice the average reaction time.

Hell lets even look at a fast overhead, TK GH, 12 frames, plus 4 frames jump start up.

233.333334

That's all more that your average 190ms.

The power of science, amirite?

Want me to try some math?

190ms since there are 1000 millisecond in a second converting it into frame data is:

represented by

(190*60)/1000 = 11.4 frames I first tried to converted it into frame data but then I ask myself can I react to an 11.4 frame attack meaning the average so I question myself what is different.

the reason exist in the many factor but also the simple test only test for stimuli response but with a set of rules to follow in place.... e.g. click when you see the green light. This made the process easier and response faster when fishing hence anticipation in mind.

[Overheat]

Here is what zaeris is saying:

However in BB the numbers of option we have isn't simply limited to one hence the time taken to react and respond is greater than of 190ms using a visual cue or 160ms. So we dont simply follow the simple reaction test which propose the average means is 190s and 160s but rather looking at the choice reaction test since this is what fighting game is all about chosing the best option in different scenario and it isn't simply just a straight answer.

An example: whack-a-mole with one hole, as opposed to whack-a-mole with three holes. Your reaction to whack-a-mole 1 will be faster than that of whack-a-mole 3

We should all agree to disagree.

[Skye]

Here is what zaeris is saying:

An example: whack-a-mole with one hole, as opposed to whack-a-mole with three holes. Your reaction to whack-a-mole 1 will be faster than that of whack-a-mole 3

But why 3?

In BB, the two real options who have to face is either a low or an overhead, unless you're fighting Carl which throws that into a game of miracles.

So it's realistically whack-a-mole 1 vs whack-a-mole 2. The thing is, if you're always hitting the second hole, regardless of what's coming out (represented by predominantly blocking low), it still logically easier to react to the first upon seeing the mole (represented by seeing and reacting to blocking the overhead).

We should all agree to disagree.

But that's no fun and completely ruins the spirit of a debate, I'm sure there is no ill intent between either of us.

I do not at all deny that yomi helps a bunch in blocking overheads, but it's not required to block one at all. In the same manner, fishing for/anticipating the green light helps, but it's still entirely possible with practice to click it on sight. You may not score 190ms, but when your leeway is almost twice that, is it really that hard?

[Overheat]

Oh, no, it doesn't have to be 3. 3 is just a theoretical number. It's at least 2 though. Zaeris' point is that one's reaction is slower than 190ms. Your point seems to be that with practice, your reactions can become better.

Both of you are right, but the best way, I think, to "increase" blocking ability is to know that Lambda's 6A/6B/2C are all jump cancellable.

With 2147D~C, I'd say that it becomes almost impossible to know whether or not to block low/high. That's where you might have to guess.

But you two are just talking about 2147D, so...

[zaeris]

But why 3?

In BB, the two real options who have to face is either a low or an overhead, unless you're fighting Carl which throws that into a game of miracles.

So it's realistically whack-a-mole 1 vs whack-a-mole 2. The thing is, if you're always hitting the second hole, regardless of what's coming out (represented by predominantly blocking low), it still logically easier to react to the first upon seeing the mole (represented by seeing and reacting to blocking the overhead).

But that's no fun and completely ruins the spirit of a debate, I'm sure there is no ill intent between either of us.

I do not at all deny that yomi helps a bunch in blocking overheads, but it's not required to block one at all. In the same manner, fishing for/anticipating the green light helps, but it's still entirely possible with practice to click it on sight. You may not score 190ms, but when your leeway is almost twice that, is it really that hard?

Depends on your goal by simply achieving perfect defense you only have at least 2 with highs and low. Whats going through my mind includes "I want to win" hence a 3rd option of counter attacking.

So your choice when defending are blocking high/low, throw tech (although . more easier) and counter attacking just adding more to the list.

and by correcting the choice.. in the case with feints you movement time increase more by readjusting... I did forget about TK feints since the time it takes to respond by incorrectly guessing a feint doubles your reaction time to adjust it.

awell, its better to be here than to read DL general which is looking rather close to gamesfaq and Srk forum and do I dare say 4chan >.>

[Overheat]

I just did a reaction time test and got an average of 0.2652 seconds. It was the type where you click after you see a change (one factor, not multiple). No wonder I'm bad at blocking XD

Random Note:

I decided to stop being lazy so I'm going to record and upload some useful stuff or some videos of me playing Nu. A lot of the stuff will work for Lambda, but most of it will just be gameplay videos.

[Skye]

With 2147D~C, I'd say that it becomes almost impossible to know whether or not to block low/high. That's where you might have to guess.

Logically it's even more possible to react to that.

But that's a different circumstance and actually adds a third option, the third requiring a bit of Yomi and Luck.

The reason reacting to j214dc is tricky is that the window is much shorter. You're reacting to a 17/21 frame overhead, the cancel comes are frame 12/16, you have 5 frames minimum to realize that you've been had.

Refer to frame traps/mindgames, the feint is really good with conditioning.

Depends on your goal by simply achieving perfect defense you only have at least 2 with highs and low. Whats going through my mind includes "I want to win" hence a 3rd option of counter attacking.

So your choice when defending are blocking high/low, throw tech (although . more easier) and counter attacking just adding more to the list.

and by correcting the choice.. in the case with feints you movement time increase more by readjusting... I did forget about TK feints since the time it takes to respond by incorrectly guessing a feint doubles your reaction time to adjust it.

awell, its better to be here than to read DL general which is looking rather close to gamesfaq and Srk forum and do I dare say 4chan >.>

Counter attacking? You mean stuffing an attack? Uh, sure, if you wanna try. Normally stuffing is done using certain moves against certain approaches, the circumstances are different. You could implement a little of abare, but that goes right in the Y&L category and isn't at all reliant on reaction time as it is on yomi and luck, which goes out of the "blocking overheads on reaction" topic that we were previously on.

You could do some math and calculate frame advantage from the previous attack and start up from the next attack vs your range and speed of the counter attack, but I doubt anyone goes through all the research.

BB is not srs busness

I will say that stuffing a projectile with FC properties requires a lot of balls and spacing.

And why complicate things by adding a 3rd, more risky option? I mean if all else fails and you lack faith in your own ability to block, chicken block, it avoids lows, blocks normals and over heads and is a get out of lambda free card if she chooses to feint.

I'll stick to blocking, if I IB the Crescent (point blank), I can FC 2c her, which goes into dive loop 100% curse, more rewarding and guaranteed than chicken blocking or abare.

If she feints, then it's anyone's game unless I'm conditioned properly.

[Rageru]

@ Overheat - Did you mean unlimited Lambda (Nu)?

[Overheat]

Nope. Even without 5D being jump cancellable, if you can force your opponent to block for a prolonged amount of time, it will be very difficult for your opponent to block.

There's so many things Lambda can do off of 2147D~C that can make blocking difficult, and add to mind-games. If you want a list of stuff that Lambda can do after a TK feint, you can PM me if you wish.

However, if you're talking about the recordings I'm going to do, then no. I'm still talking about CT Nu, and CS Lambda. The things I record with CT Nu will still largely work with CS Lambda.