[CS1] Lambda General Discussion

[Antihippy]

You can't punish act parcer A on block when there's nothing to block. :P You meant B/C, and no they're pretty safe, it's just that in general you don't really want to be next to them but if you are, it's something that's not a huge problem. You'd mostly want to use them mainly in combos though.

I play zoning lambda anyway, and she's still pretty great at that. I'm more miffed at no JC for 5D rather than a slow 2C.

Her mixup though honestly I feel is still mostly the same compared to CT except for a slow as 2C which does change a few things. 2C was kinda retarded though so eh.

And I feel lambda's game is more interesting than Nu mostly with how the act parcers changes things up. Arc sys nerfed her right imo.

[St1ckBuG]

Which somewhat makes me mad after how spoiled we were with Nu, but thems the brakes I guess. To me, like you said, since her mix-ups are so risky it almost makes her entire game nothing but zoning (which Nu had to do as well) and crescent cancels/loops. I like Lambda, I really do, but her game now is much more boring compared to Nu. My opinion at least, your mileage may vary.

Her play-style is the same, it's just that her zoning got nerfed as well as her average damage.

Her mixup was braindead in CT: all D normals were jump/dash cancellable, dash cancels went through people, full screen mixup that lead to good damage with meter.

Her damage was stupid in CT: 4500+ no meter combos off of a 9f startup dash/jump cancellable move that was so easy to hit confirm off of since it was multi-hit.

She still has mixup, it's just not as scary because you can't net good damage off of it unless you're in the corner or have meter.

FYI, almost all mixups for every character are 'risky'. Most (if not all?) characters have to blow meter to make some of their mixup safe/combo-able.

[Jugiatsu]

I play zoning lambda anyway, and she's still pretty great at that. I'm more miffed at no JC for 5D rather than a slow 2C.

Her mixup though honestly I feel is still mostly the same compared to CT except for a slow as 2C which does change a few things. 2C was kinda retarded though so eh.

God this right here. I loved my JC for 5D. I dont mind the 2C nerf but I do wish our 5C startup time was the same. I can work around that though usually.

She still has mixup, it's just not as scary because you can't net good damage off of it unless you're in the corner or have meter.

FYI, almost all mixups for every character are 'risky'. Most (if not all?) characters have to blow meter to make some of their mixup safe/combo-able.

Oh I agree for sure. Let me be more specific. I think what irks me the most about my characters mix-ups is just that. Its so situational, where as characters like Ragna and Bang can just throw out mix-ups left and right without almost any penalty for it (Bang moreso).

I understand that if you were to give her a wide-array of mix-up options she would be appraoching Nu levels of ridiculousness again but I would have really liked to have something more than just "opponents in the corner, NOW you can finally mix-up."

[Overheat]

That's too bad... Thanks everyone. I know what all her mix-up options are from 2C into jump cancel, but now that 5D and 6D are not jump cancellable, Lambda cannot do the crazy mix-up that Nu can. I suppose if the opponent is in the corner, mix-up is still a viable option. From there one can try for a TK loop.

[kenja0]

6D is jump cancellable. 4D/5D are not.

I would have at least liked them to keep 4D's jump cancel but having a high/low mixup between 236D (now slower than holy hell) and j.214D is apparently bad.

[Overheat]

Oh... You're right. Can't believe I missed that. That's good ^.^

[Skye]

6D is jump cancellable. 4D/5D are not.

I would have at least liked them to keep 4D's jump cancel but having a high/low mixup between 236D (now slower than holy hell) and j.214D is apparently bad.

Yeah everyone wants their stuff to be free and jump cancellable.

It's not like that contributed to Nu being broken or anything.

[zaeris]

Yeah everyone wants their stuff to be free and jump cancellable.

It's not like that contributed to Nu being broken or anything.

not at all ^^,

I'm at a shock reading the past few post....people you can still Jc your normals well most of them, Tk crescent saber is still a great over head... I smell bs if people can react to it but thats just me. your mix up can potentially come from 6a since it has the revolving gatling of going to 2b or jc into tk crescent saber...

the only lack of option to mix someone up is at range which you can aim to decrease their primer instead and make their focus less on defence which will give you a chance to land Air hits in most cases.

[kenja0]

And attempting to make Bang's Fu-Rin-Ka-Zan cost 100 Heat in the loketest and then retracting it wasn't some realization on their part that Bang was going to be OP. Yet, even with that realization, they let that shit slide anyway.

Now Litchi was something they couldn't have predicted right off the bat...

I don't know what they intended for Arakune.

Besides, if you're standing around for a 4D (unless you're stalled from a 236D), you have some serious reaction time issues.

I can understand blocking a powerful mixup such as Nu's is bs, but all they really needed to do was turn off some jump cancels on block.

[Overheat]

Yeah, at least we still have 6A and 6B. They're both the same from CT to CS in terms of frame data.

I think kenja0 meant that the developers thought that mix-up of 5DD 236D or 5DD 2147D is hard to guess whether to block high or low. At least, in CT, it was.

[kenja0]

Actually, 5D mixup was broken. 4D mixup isn't that bad because of the 236D nerf.

[Skye]

not at all ^^,

I'm at a shock reading the past few post....people you can still Jc your normals well most of them, Tk crescent saber is still a great over head... I smell bs if people can react to it but thats just me. your mix up can potentially come from 6a since it has the revolving gatling of going to 2b or jc into tk crescent saber...

the only lack of option to mix someone up is at range which you can aim to decrease their primer instead and make their focus less on defence which will give you a chance to land Air hits in most cases.

17 frames is very reactable.

-8 complicates punishment for some characters, depending on your spacing.

Lambda's guard breaking options aren't that good, only Tager and Ragna will have a problem with them.

Spike Chaser dies if it interacts with another projectile.

Sickle Storm is fucking slow, most characters can back dash/jump over it. With Ibing (of previous attacks), some characters can punish before it's active frames with their own long range options.

Her best guard crushing tool at that range is APC, but you better hope no one is mashing something during that 30 frame no invincibility start up. If your opponent is familiar with her animations, they can easily discern between Zwei Blade and Cavalier just by look at her start up.

This isn't to say that her zoning game is bad, it's not bad, it's just not free (unless you're fighting Tager), her zoning game now relies on mindgames and conditioning, toying with your opponent's patience and primers.

As far as mix ups go, it's not as bad as Jin's with only 1 overhead that slower, doesn't break primers and is more punishable.

He can't feint it into a 12 frame fake out with only 21 frame recovery either.

And attempting to make Bang's Fu-Rin-Ka-Zan cost 100 Heat in the loketest and then retracting it wasn't some realization on their part that Bang was going to be OP. Yet, even with that realization, they let that shit slide anyway.

Now Litchi was something they couldn't have predicted right off the bat...

Yeah, brokeness sucks on the other side of the fence, doesn't it?

[zaeris]

17 frames is very reactable.

-8 complicates punishment for some characters, depending on your spacing.

I would like to see you block it without anticipation.. or else the japanese player wouldn't get hit by it... well thats about it from me whether people are truely reacting or aniticipating a move I don't believe you can freely react at mid range. More power to you if you can..

With the case with litchi I already foresaw that happening because realisticly she wasn't lacking anything except more damage once you addded in damage she became complete same with bang. These character back in CT actually landed hit easier. okizeme and mix up wise they were strong in both especially in litchi's cases.

[Skye]

Reacting to moves like those simply take practice, you're the second person who seems to dismiss that practice improves you, ironically, the last person was also a Nu main.

You guys are spoiled.

Let me put it this way, my character has a kara cancel within a 3 frame window, if we can do fucking karas, then blocking a 17 frame overhead is not that big of a leap.

You're not a master of either one off the back, but with practice, you learn to look out for it and react to it. Same with anyone's overheads. The unwritten rule of blocking (in BB) is to block low and react to overheads when necessary, because lows are often much faster than overheads, so you leave your reaction time to the slower attacks.

And why would an unreactable overhead exist?

You guys really are spoiled.

[kenja0]

Yeah, brokeness sucks on the other side of the fence, doesn't it?

...Yeah, I actually stopped using Nu when playing CT because it made me feel guilty. I don't even know half the stuff I should for my secondaries... luckily I don't outright suck with them.

With the case with litchi I already foresaw that happening because realisticly she wasn't lacking anything except more damage once you addded in damage she became complete same with bang. These character back in CT actually landed hit easier. okizeme and mix up wise they were strong in both especially in litchi's cases.

Bang was perfectly fine as a mixup character. Heck, he's perfectly fine as a character now if his damage output was lessened. However, Litchi's pole in combos reminds me very much of Pumpkin and George in CT. I really want to see how they balance her in 6 months.

[Overheat]

2147D is not that hard to react to. Like Skye said, just stick to blocking low. If you see them jump cancel 6A, 6B, 2C, then they're probably going to TK.

When you add in 2147D~C, blocking becomes much more difficult though.

[Antihippy]

Skye I have no idea what you're even trying to prove now.

Seriously though, yes overheads are slow, but the whole point of a mixup is to use a variety of options to get your opponent guess wrong. And sometimes they won't react in time or guess what you're going to do correctly, and you win that little contest.

Seriously though, if you want to play the frame game, bang's 6C is 15 frames and hazama's ressanga is 19 frames which needs to be started from a move which you can only cancel on the 6th frame. And people get hit by them, trust me. I know it's hard to believe, but they do.

And you keep saying spoilt. Who's being spoilt about what? Seriously though, you lost me there.

[Skye]

Skye I have no idea what you're even trying to prove now.

I'm trying to prove that overheads are reactable with practice, whereas zaeris' argument was that Crescent Saber had to be yomi'd to be blocked at best on human reactions.

What, you disagree?

Also, lol at "frame game"

with practice, you learn to look out for it and react to it. Same with anyone's overheads.

[Antihippy]

Oh, I thought you were saying that overheads are useless and too predictable. o_O

And I agree to a point, but also that it's fast enough that some anticipation is required, especially if you're using it along 2147DC feints.

17 frames isn't that slow, even for a overhead. Plus the fact that it has good reach and could go over low attacks (or at least I haven't been hit out by any lows makes it a good mixup option.

Still don't get your spoilt comment.

[Skye]

Oh, I thought you were saying that overheads are useless and too predictable. o_O

*facepalm*

And I agree to a point, but also that it's fast enough that some anticipation is required, especially if you're using it along 2147DC feints.

Not necessarily, it should take 10 frames for you to notice something at the least. I was taught the hard way to react to overheads, and I can see and react to a TK gauntlet Hades (12f start up by the way), I wasn't born with the ability to do that, but with repetition, I learned to notice and block it on reaction. Yomi indeed helps an overhead, but it isn't at all required, unless it's like 9 frames or something. The feints are why her Crescent (and her mix up on that notion) is so good. That's 12f start up and 21f recovery, that's pretty damn good. There are normal attacks that have more recovery than that, non jump cancellable ones.

17 frames isn't that slow, even for a overhead. Plus the fact that it has good reach and could go over low attacks (or at least I haven't been hit out by any lows makes it a good mixup option.

I didn't say it was bad at all, in fact I agree with you on the notion that it's good, but it is also reactable, punishing is a different story though, even on IB.

Still don't get your spoilt comment.

Long story short, playing Nu for a long time spoils you, everything is free, easy and rewarding, you begin to feel uneasy when things are punishable, does less damage, non jump cancellable, and are overall harder to you.

[zaeris]

Reacting to moves like those simply take practice, you're the second person who seems to dismiss that practice improves you, ironically, the last person was also a Nu main.

You guys are spoiled.

Let me put it this way, my character has a kara cancel within a 3 frame window, if we can do fucking karas, then blocking a 17 frame overhead is not that big of a leap.

You're not a master of either one off the back, but with practice, you learn to look out for it and react to it. Same with anyone's overheads. The unwritten rule of blocking (in BB) is to block low and react to overheads when necessary, because lows are often much faster than overheads, so you leave your reaction time to the slower attacks.

And why would an unreactable overhead exist?

You guys really are spoiled.

17 is react-able however for most of us without a clear and concise thought is it not a simple matter, this is where conditioning has been use to test if people are genuinely reacting or dishonestly anticipation.

according to Robert J. Kosinski of Clemson University, the mean average of reaction base on light is 190ms and sound 160ms, so yes it is possible...

http://biae.clemson.edu/bpc/bp/Lab/110/reaction.htm#Simple%20vs

However in BB the numbers of option we have isn't simply limited to one hence the time taken to react and respond is greater than of 190ms using a visual cue or 160ms. So we dont simply follow the simple reaction test which propose the average means is 190s and 160s but rather looking at the choice reaction test since this is what fighting game is all about chosing the best option in different scenario and it isn't simply just a straight answer.

using Hick's law RT = a + blog2(n + 1) where A and B are constant figure representing movement time and processing speed and N being the numbers of choices.

If I was doing Tk crescent only and telling you to block standing in crouch position it would be simple and somewhat easy. But for the standard block low (most) and react high your option and reaction are increase by log(2+1).

so what do I want to say? I don't believe genuinely that reaction is simple and that a person can block Tk crescent all the time... by expanding your options through conditioning I will more likely see people get hit by it.

And how does the word spoiled has any meaning in this? if anything its either you can do something or you can't do something. If you limited your option to just look for Tk crescent and block it would be simple but this isn't what’s occurring in fighting games when your option are increased.

Second thought I find your correlation to kara to reaction absurd since both are unrelated to each other or have you realise this already? With a clear and define task you are not trying to cancel kara from reaction, you're doing it from the moment you are recognising your choice meaning it came before the action took place physically, there is no reaction unless you want to say people can react in less than 3 frames?

and yes unreactable overheads do exist, you should try playing GG where may has two option from her dust making it a 50/50 guess and millia hair car frc into jk did I forget baiken Tk Youzansen which comes out in 6 frames in the air when TK it is impossible to see.

[kenja0]

Skye,

We're not trying to dodge practice, nor are we unfamiliar with the concepts you present.

Human error will always be a factor- and it can be minimized.

What some of us really want is anything... whether it be fresh, balanced, or improved.

It's selfish, but you know what, it's a video game- we want to have as much fun as possible.

[Antihippy]

Long story short, playing Nu for a long time spoils you, everything is free, easy and rewarding, you begin to feel uneasy when things are punishable, does less damage, non jump cancellable, and are overall harder to you.

Seriously though, now that I've followed the argument a little bit more, you do know that most of our JC frames are the same save for 5/4D? And the people wanting JCable 5/4D is because it would make her mixup game more interesting.

None of us are complaining about difficulty, damage or punishability.

Your hate for Nu is seriously getting to you a little bit.

[Overheat]

If I was spoiled by Nu's play style, I would switch to Bang or something. The only thing I wish would've happened to Lambda is to keep her jump cancellable D moves. Make her damage 50% or lower her health by 1000.

Dash in > 5A > 2B > 2C > 2147D~C

After:

land > 3C

land > dash > throw

j.214D (tight timing)

I don't think a lot of people can react to that, even with practice. Lambda can still do this, and there are a lot more options than I have listed, not to mention safer options that are still effective.

[Skye]

That's all nice and sciencey and stuff, but this isn't a 50/50, you're blocking low and reacting to the overhead.

Not blocking neutral and reacting to the either a low or an overhead.

Allow me to borrow from that link of yours.

"In recognition reaction time experiments, there are some stimuli that should be responded to (the 'memory set'), and others that should get no response (the 'distractor set')."

In this case, the low (and neutrals) is the distractor set, while the over head is the memory set.

Blocking low covers both neutrals and lows, there's no need to try to react to it, since you got that covered.

Spot an over head? Fuck man, react, block it.

My kara example shows that with practice, 3 frame karas are possible. Possible enough to work into muscle memory and do consistently.

Similarly, with practice, spotting a 17 frame overhead and reacting to it is possible. Possible enough see it whenever executed and block it consistently.

A 3 frame kara, vs a 17 frame overhead?

And before you wanna get all sciencey and big words on me again, by consistently, I mean often, not 100% of the time, too many variable exists for anything to be blocked 100% of the time, if you as a player leave no variable, then l2mindgame.

Also, before you start using big words to sound smart, read up on George Orwell's Politics and the English Language. You're opinion is still misguided and you obviously didn't read all of what you linked.

Your hate for Nu is seriously getting to you a little bit.

Haha, although I'll never deny hating Nu, that's not my sole conjecture. I've heard good Nu players (one including Sev) openly admit being spoiled by Nu, and this fact only becomes noticeable when they pick up Lambda. It's not anything to be ashamed of, Arakune spoils players too, and they have to learn to get over it, deal with what they have.

I suppose I'll come back when you guys can handle a debate on overheads (lol) without getting salty.