kriaser Posted March 29, 2010 Posted March 29, 2010 So, we have the theme song of This is the song that doesn't end, now we just need to find an infinite loop like Carl had.
RinHara5aki Posted March 29, 2010 Posted March 29, 2010 Its the corner loop that neeeverrrr eenndsss~ 6a -> 2147d -> 6a -> 2147d -> 6a -> 2147d -> 6a -> 2147d -> 6a -> 2147d -> 6a -> 2147d -> 6a -> 2147d -> 6a -> 2147d -> 6a -> 2147d -> 6a -> 2147d -> 6a -> 2147d -> 6a -> 2147d -> 6a -> 2147d -> 6a -> 2147d -> 6a -> 2147d -> 6a -> 2147d -> 6a -> 2147d -> 6a -> 2147d -> 6a -> 2147d -> 6a -> 2147d -> 6a -> 2147d -> 6a -> 2147d -> 6a -> 2147d -> 6a -> 2147d -> 6a -> 2147d -> 6a -> 2147d -> 6a -> 2147d -> 6a -> 2147d ->
kenja0 Posted March 30, 2010 Posted March 30, 2010 ...so I herd some things... Console Character Rebalance! http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://jaysonic.blog42.fc2.com/blog-entry-1194.html&ei=FNKuS7iTO5XYNteQzZkF&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBgQ7gEwAw&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://jaysonic.blog42.fc2.com/blog-entry-1194.html%26hl%3Den Are we getting any buffs? Are we losing our loop as long as everyone else does? Are they going to disable our nerflicious D button permanently? I don't think it matters! I hear its going to be a patchable game. Just imagine, getting on one week and pulling off some sweet combo, then getting on the next week and have it completely invalid! Any thoughts?
toanenadiz Posted March 30, 2010 Posted March 30, 2010 Are we getting any buffs? Does Lambda need any buffs? And I thought that Spirit Juice's breakdown of Lambda was interesting. [Lambda] Average damage C: Hits from swords lead to low damage, and without the proper set up, she can’t get a lot of damage from her BnBs Max damage A: From certain set ups such as Cavalier or Crescent Saber loop she can get over 4k Pokes A: While not as stupid good as Nu’s swords, Lambda’s swords are still very powerful tools; her other normals aren’t very powerful poking tools Breaking out of pressure C: Her only option is her gravity field, which now has a ton of invincibility frames; her CA is decent but her nerfed meter gain from CT means she should probably save her meter for RCs Mix up D: Her overhead is a bit better, but that’s about it; she relies on her zoning for damage, not mix up Pressure D: She can use her swords a little bit to pressure, but it’s not an endless barrage like it was in CT Okizeme B: Although she can get pseudo-knockdown with Crescent Saber, it’s not a real knockdown; sweep into Spike Chaser forces them to neutral tech or they’re going to get hit Against ground D: All of her normals get anti-aired by any decent anti-air Against air A: 2C is no longer the answer to every jump in ever, but 6A, 6D, and 2D can make approaching from the air difficult Defense D: Below average health, average primers In general situations A: Hands down best zoning in the game; she’s very comfortable being on the other side of the screen Overall B: Solid character, but relies heavily on zoning Good matchups: Arakune, Tager, and Rachel; all three have trouble dealing with her zoning Bad matchups: Bang; nails give her trouble and once he gets in, she just can’t get away Does it seem right to those people who have used Lambda a lot?
zaeris Posted March 30, 2010 Posted March 30, 2010 Does Lambda need any buffs? And I thought that Spirit Juice's breakdown of Lambda was interesting. Does it seem right to those people who have used Lambda a lot? There's a few conflicting view since Sj would include pokes being A with D sword but discount them in Air-> ground section with a D ranked. If you include he j2dd poke it adds a different layer at least limits that choice to be above C ranked since its unbeatable at range into crescent saber with bar you combo into it. Although I find mix up at D lacking maybe from he's experience lambda players that fully utilize her melee aspect including tk 2147d feints combine with 5b into 2b and alternative 2147d mix up. Beside that Tk feint into throw and 236a into throws. Pressure at D? well it depends on how good the player is and maybe at this stage there hasn't been lambda that can fully uses her pressure game ranging from 236d 214d and 236c ( fidget character) of if we look at it from a Japanese point of view the good players are well able to keep their opponents out and deal a constant threat with guard crush combo. Secondly pressure from guard crush hasn't been included so I'm wondering why. *the review doesn't seem consistent with her melee and range aspect. While some areas clear such Anti Air, other areas lack this considering. Pokes, against ground, mix up and pressure are a few. just to highlight lambda pokes are not really A as we don't always use D pokes as the only option but also melee and poking with 236c, 236c are considered viable. Damage is agreeable because they are situational, however guard crush potential hasn't been mention and as a fact you would see lambda close or will GC people in matches leading them to burst early adding more threat pressure from primer reduction.
Antihippy Posted March 30, 2010 Posted March 30, 2010 I really don't think lambda needs much buffing honestly. She's at a pretty good place balance-wise now. She has all the tools necessary to deal with most matchups and her risk/reward ratio is going in the right direction, though I think her average damage could do with a little more damage. She might be B-tier but that would be pretty high B. Just nerf top tier and she'll be golden.
Arcade Fire87 Posted March 30, 2010 Posted March 30, 2010 Just fucking nerf Bang's 5A, a quick ass poke with high priority shouldn't lead to 3000 meterless damage. Lambda was one of the best redesigned characters in CS, she's pretty good where she is, just balance the top tier a little, make Rachel less shitty. Noel could probably use a little nudge too
toanenadiz Posted March 30, 2010 Posted March 30, 2010 I sort of wish there was some way to make the Lambda-Arakune match-up slightly better for Arakune but considering Arakune's playstyle, I don't think that is possible. It would be nice if Lambda could have even match-ups against everyone.
Antihippy Posted March 30, 2010 Posted March 30, 2010 Bang's 5A isn't really the problem, it's his nails and 5B mostly. Plus the fact that lambda still dies to most pressure. Also, fuck arakune.
zaeris Posted March 30, 2010 Posted March 30, 2010 I sort of wish there was some way to make the Lambda-Arakune match-up slightly better for Arakune but considering Arakune's playstyle, I don't think that is possible. It would be nice if Lambda could have even match-ups against everyone. shrug~~ why bother> You can't balance every match up in every game... people in the proffesional gaming community learn to deal with disadvantage match up. Even in the world of Star craft the korean adaptor and learn the match up regards of which race they play. And no arakune gets no sympathy the curse system is a half ass attempt in creating a character. Enjoy eating 10 k combo.
Antihippy Posted March 30, 2010 Posted March 30, 2010 You can't eat a 10K combo if they can't hit you. He's so gimmicky now. Eh.
St1ckBuG Posted March 30, 2010 Posted March 30, 2010 [Lambda] Average damage C: Hits from swords lead to low damage, and without the proper set up, she can’t get a lot of damage from her BnBs Max damage A: From certain set ups such as Cavalier or Crescent Saber loop she can get over 4k Pokes A: While not as stupid good as Nu’s swords, Lambda’s swords are still very powerful tools; her other normals aren’t very powerful poking tools Breaking out of pressure C: Her only option is her gravity field, which now has a ton of invincibility frames; her CA is decent but her nerfed meter gain from CT means she should probably save her meter for RCs Mix up D: Her overhead is a bit better, but that’s about it; she relies on her zoning for damage, not mix up Pressure D: She can use her swords a little bit to pressure, but it’s not an endless barrage like it was in CT Okizeme B: Although she can get pseudo-knockdown with Crescent Saber, it’s not a real knockdown; sweep into Spike Chaser forces them to neutral tech or they’re going to get hit Against ground D: All of her normals get anti-aired by any decent anti-air Against air A: 2C is no longer the answer to every jump in ever, but 6A, 6D, and 2D can make approaching from the air difficult Defense D: Below average health, average primers In general situations A: Hands down best zoning in the game; she’s very comfortable being on the other side of the screen Overall B: Solid character, but relies heavily on zoning Good matchups: Arakune, Tager, and Rachel; all three have trouble dealing with her zoning Bad matchups: Bang; nails give her trouble and once he gets in, she just can’t get away Average Damage: This is true for the most part. Most of her high damage depends where you are on the screen as well as how much meter you have. Her average damage is alright but nothing special. Giving her a 'C' here makes sense. Max Damage: True. Her high damage combos are TRULY high damage. An 'A' here makes sense. Pokes: This gets tricky. A lot of people are going to look at this catergory and interpret it the wrong way. SJ covers mixup/pressure later on, so you can't really take that into consideration here. What's he's getting at is pretty general, but it's pretty much: are her normals good? For the most part they are, since D normals are still really good. She has good zoning tools, but when it comes to fighting up close she's lacking. When it comes down to it she's a zoning character, her zoning is some of the best in the game, and it's what you you want to spend most of your time doing (if you want a better chance at winning that is). So giving her an 'A' here is understandable. I think a 'B' would suit her better though since you have to take her A/B/C normals into account even though she's a zoning character. Breaking Pressure: Yeah... it's pretty bad now. All you really have is gravity pit, which is extremely unsafe without heat. Most of the cast can lock her down easy once they get in. Her backdash is alright, but it can still get tagged by a lot of things. Her CA is good as well, but it comes at the cost of meter which is a direct impact on her damage output. If she didn't have a reversal she'd probably get a 'D' here, so a 'C' is understandable. Average. If you wanted to get really picky it could probably be a 'C-'. Mixup: Her mixup isn't amazing, let's be honest. As far as high/low she has 4B and Kure. 4B is two hits, and Kure high/low can be blocked without much effort. As far as 'respect mixup' goes with her 236A/B/C... it's not that great either. All of them can be hit or thrown out of their startup. To build on this, 4B and Kure (as well as the feint version) aren't that safe either. The fact that she has mixup is a 'C', but add on that none of them are really that safe without meter and you're pretty much giving her a 'D'. Pressure: Ends pretty fast and is unsafe to reset without opponent respect or meter. A 'D' here is understandable. Oki: Almost all (if not all) combos end with more of a knock-away rather then a knock-down. Regardless, you're still able to keep them locked down for a little bit longer in most scenarios. 2B can still punish rolls. I guess a B makes sense... but it's a low B. Air > Ground: Everything gets stuffed by most anti-airs except for j.2DD, but doesn't net you much damage if it lands (was there a Kure RC combo discovered recently? I forget). You can get a knock away most of the time atleast. I think j.2C is her next best option, but it requires the right spacing so you don't go flying over the opponent (not to mention is slow on startup/recovery and easy to block). Usually a neutral jump > j.2DD > Kure Fient > air dash is the only reliable way to use the move. Because j.2DD is her only reliable air > ground normal and the fact that it doesn't net you much (without heat?) is a good reason to give her a 'D' here. Ground > Air: She's still strong here with 6A/2D/6D making her hard to approach. Given the right circumstances she can net pretty good damage off these normals too. An 'A' here makes sense. Defense: Low health and average primers... below average. Giving a 'D' makes sense. Neutral Situations(?): Her zoning is strong making it hard to approach. An 'A' makes sense. Overall: She's better then average. Giving her a 'B' overall makes sense. I won't get into character specific matchups, but... Good - Tager/Rachel/Arakune Bad - Bang/Litchi/Hazama (Hazama might not be that bad, but that matchup is really fucking annoying) Comment on Primers: Even if SJ was to take this into account, it wouldn't change her overall score. Don't get me wrong, I do find it weird that he didn't touch on this as well, but I still think it would't boost her final grade of 'B'.
Antihippy Posted March 30, 2010 Posted March 30, 2010 Knock away is good for lambda though. It means that they're in a position where lambda's zoning excels at and puts them closer to the corner for the loop. Litchi I don't think it's that bad honestly. Damage output is a big problem from lambda but she's not as hard to keep away as bang, plus her pressure game isn't as good as bang's either. Hazama's chains can be a problem but his otherwise terribad mobility helps. I've also tried to see if I could punish chains and I think 6A could be used to punish them when they come flying at you whether it's blocked or not, though not on hit obviously. Can't really tell seeing that i haven't tested it too much. Just can't throw out random D's. j. C is actually a pretty good air to ground normal. It could be used as a crossup also. Her other normals/pokes aren't that bad either.
kenja0 Posted March 30, 2010 Posted March 30, 2010 Lambda was one of the best redesigned characters in CS, she's pretty good where she is, just balance the top tier a little, make Rachel less shitty. Noel could probably use a little nudge too I do agree with you. I think Lambda has to be one of the most balanced characters: not too amazing, caters to the new Guard Primer system better than any other character (but is far from broken with it), circumstantial combos/loop (is it time for me to 5B?), a singular yet functional high/low game, outstandingly complex and truly skill-based on a competitive level. I don't think she needs any changes unless if it were just to mix it up (Gravity CA?/Command~A/B versions?), or improve her damage to make up for her weaknesses. But yeah, everyone else Needs to get nerfed/buffed; we could still want some.
kriaser Posted March 30, 2010 Posted March 30, 2010 I suppose the only change I would really like to see on Lambda is a better 6A. I can't really ask for that though since D swords beat out anything else in the air. Overall, Lambda is very solid this time around. I know Bang's 5A is amazing and leads to heavy damage, but so does Ragna's really, except Ragna can get roughly 4k and huge meter gains from berial edge. But Bang has nails which let him get in as easily as Rachel's pumpkin in CT did. All in all, I'm still expecting people to hate Lambda due to her being the zoner of the game. But holy shit, it's amazing to find a good Haku or someone who knows how to get inside your D swords and cause all sorts of havoc. I really can't wait to see how the tournaments are going to be this season.
St1ckBuG Posted March 30, 2010 Posted March 30, 2010 Knock away is good for lambda though. It means that they're in a position where lambda's zoning excels at and puts them closer to the corner for the loop. Litchi I don't think it's that bad honestly. Damage output is a big problem from lambda but she's not as hard to keep away as bang, plus her pressure game isn't as good as bang's either. Hazama's chains can be a problem but his otherwise terribad mobility helps. I've also tried to see if I could punish chains and I think 6A could be used to punish them when they come flying at you whether it's blocked or not, though not on hit obviously. Can't really tell seeing that i haven't tested it too much. Just can't throw out random D's. j. C is actually a pretty good air to ground normal. It could be used as a crossup also. Her other normals/pokes aren't that bad either. No one said knocking them away was bad. Her oki is pretty much non-existent, that's why her neutral game is treated more like her oki, but not for the purpose of SJ's topic. Litchi pressure is the same as Bang's, and she doesn't have a hard time getting in. Hazama is just an annoying matchup, it's not as hard as Bang / Litchi, it's just the fact that you have to play differently and some of your options are now unsafe. j.C is just like j.2C... it's very situational... you can't just stand half screen away and just IAD in like most good air > ground normals. It has it's uses, but it's by no means great.
Skye Posted March 30, 2010 Posted March 30, 2010 As an Arakune player, I really can't say or suggest any change that won't destroy her in that particular match up. 6a needs no buffs really, we don't want it to be as flow-charty as Ragna, Rachael or CT Haku's 6a. Do we? She really is perfect as is.
zaeris Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 SNIP................. Comment on Primers: Even if SJ was to take this into account, it wouldn't change her overall score. Don't get me wrong, I do find it weird that he didn't touch on this as well, but I still think it would't boost her final grade of 'B'. The overall rank is an arbitrary assessment meaning you could assign any value to it regardless of what her factors include which seems to reflect her tier placements.... It's not like SJ is taking the average of each factor and concluded it was B. I however felt there were minor conflicts within each factor at least little buff here and there, lets say mix up if you can react to tk 2147 feint you can leave it at D. As for pressure, Lambda is full screen away where it stops or not she is still full screen away and freely allows to pressure you again or react to jump and push you back into primer reduction. I'm not one to take a character analysis seriously unless one of my lambda gods wrote since the experience of watching a match isn't the same as playing it. You can't feel being frame trap or you've realize the opponent has exerted great pressure that you only could had defend. Gravity is probably the SRK in BB CS atm if you factor in combo but its not in CH state at least. people with poor standing combo can't punish it more than A B C special, TT (top tier) however are different but that's the same with all punishable attack against TT characters.
Antihippy Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 No one said knocking them away was bad. Her oki is pretty much non-existent, that's why her neutral game is treated more like her oki, but not for the purpose of SJ's topic. Litchi pressure is the same as Bang's, and she doesn't have a hard time getting in. Hazama is just an annoying matchup, it's not as hard as Bang / Litchi, it's just the fact that you have to play differently and some of your options are now unsafe. j.C is just like j.2C... it's very situational... you can't just stand half screen away and just IAD in like most good air > ground normals. It has it's uses, but it's by no means great. j. 2C is bad air to air and air to ground for me. I never use it outside of combos. Litchi, other than kara falling I don't think it's too bad. She's not nearly as mobile as him and staff shenanigans are easier to deal with than nail shenanigans.
Skye Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 j2c is a horrible air to air, it's a horrible air to ground. jc is way better, because unlike j2c, it has a bigger hitbox around her and even a little under her.
Antihippy Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 Wait, aren't you an arakune main skye? Thinking of picking up lambda?
zaeris Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 Wait, aren't you an arakune main skye? Thinking of picking up lambda? I'm more confident in saying he has a lot of free time~~
Skye Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 Wait, aren't you an arakune main skye? Thinking of picking up lambda? I fuck around with Nu, and yeah, I'm thinking about taking Lamb chop under my wing. It's good for Arakune too, the best way to know a match up is to know both your options and their's. And if I play them both, I'd have to know them.
Antihippy Posted April 1, 2010 Posted April 1, 2010 http://www.famitsu.com/game/news/1233561_1124.html Arcsys going full on with the murakamo unit love. Also, Mu looks like justice only with less armour. Like the entire front.
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