[CS1] Carl Clover Tactical Discussion/Questions/Help

[Kyle]

this is still a WIP izzy.

Feel free to contribute here and I will append as we all get better.

I still haven't perfect the 2]D[ loop & still need to confirm which launched combo is the best.

[ZONG_one]

Carl can jump loops against Standing Ragna. =P

5B, 6B, SJ.2C, J.B, J.C...

Tell me more...?

You've sparked my interest.

[Kyle]

The most damaging jump loop against Tager is:

6B/6]D[, J.2C, J.B, J.C, Jump Cancel, J.2C, J.B, J.C

I prefer ending with 5B, 5C, 63214]D[, 236A for a mix-ups. If Tager does not break the throw you've done 5K damage without tension and using very little nirvana. If Tager does break the throw, we got a J.B fuzzy, or an IAD J.C cross-up, this is a much better OKI situation than a KD.

6B/6]D[, J.2C, J.B, J.C, Jump Cancel, J.2C, J.B, J.C, 5B, 5C, 63214]D[, 236A, SJ.2C, Allegreto.

Also on Tager: Whatever, 3C, 22]D[, IAD, J.2C, Alle~can, 5C, SJ.B, J.C, Jump Cancel Airthrow,

if he does not break the throw, he is in perfect position to airthrow again without spending nirvana meter. when he does airthrow break, do Bria, Cantata. On hit it's DMG, on Block it leads to UB with 8]D[ shenanigans.

I still haven't found a way to force people into the air for the Fermata UB.

Airdash, Nirvana activate, FD is interesting & works, but I don't find it very useful... yet.

@50sec. o.0 http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=UkpOhoSdbWs&playnext_from=TL&videos=PJJrs9JCZJI&feature=sub

Here's what's left of the mega TO-DO post:To update:/VERIFY

C-O-N

2B, 2C, 632146C, 2]D[, 2B, 2C, 632146C, 2]D[...

Guard Crush on (6)-primers into a Super launch, Nee~san should recover in time to 8]D[.

PahethonH: Dunno if this has been mentioned before, but I figured I'd toss it out here: Nirvana's commands are now with respect to actual spatial relations instead of Carl's direction.

So, for example, C-O-N airdash right to become O-C-N (j.), once past the opponent, Carl is facing right (i.e. "forward" D). In BBCT, right-D () would be 6D because Carl is facing right; but now in BBCS, now that "true sides" are switched, right-D () in this situation becomes 4D even though Carl is facing right (i.e. "away" D).

Carl's own commands are still based on the direction he faces, though. i.e. in the above situation, Allegretto/Alle-can is still down-downleft-left (), CT and CS.

In short, the rules for Nirvana commands in crossups is different in BBCS.

BURST & CA damage: We lost clap loop off of Burst/Counter Assault: But supers do a set minimum DMG.

-Burst, 8]D[, 632146C, 8]D[, 632146C for at least 1500 DMG. (DMG needs confirmed)

-Counter assault, 8]D[, 632146C, for at least 750 DMG. (DMG needs confirmed)

-Counter assault, 623D, J.B, Allegreto, 8]D[, 632146C, for at least 750 DMG. (DMG needs confirmed)

Astral applications? 6,4,6,41236]D[

With full meter, retreat to the corner with IAD, 22D during it to position Ada like this:

|.......A...............|

| = screen border; this assumes you're going to the right, for left otherwise Ada would be similarly positioned towards the right.

Activate AH as soon as possible, then just FD everything they do, and tech whatever throws they used. If you have good defense you can easily keep this up for the mere five seconds it takes for it to go off; when you're cornered like this they can't back the screen away enough to dodge the explosion, and FDing their attacks will push them into it. If they don't attack you can just 5B or something.

I've gotten this off three times tonight and I got Veteru to complain and jestingly call it cheap, which makes me pretty happy

That diagram is awful, so I'll try to get video footage of this as soon as I can. Luckily my HD capture device recently arrived in the mail so I should be able to get a good quality capture of it.

This is obviously not a 100% serious strategy since Carl kinda likes using his meter, but goddamn. It is very funny and there's really not a whole lot they can do about it so if you somehow get the chance you really might as well. The only real hole is people with command grabs (except tager lololol) you can't just easily tech their throws. Also, Rachel can dodge it by staying in the air and just not going down. I think Arakune might be able to do the same thing. Noel maybe if she has lots of meter. But, uh, against people who don't have command throws and aren't those characters!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJyUZ2Zyy44

623C Forces standing

CH6B Combo

Carl VS Arakune: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkSDPIFVor4

Burst bait with vivace

DAMAGE: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iw0JcAoLKoo

Input trick for volante/Alle~can: j.2C, 421CD, 5C

LOL: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNCwi4iUzts&NR=1

Fermata Air unblockable?

The proration depends on your combo and the hits in it unfortunately =(

Since it seems like a lot of you dont have this data...

Move -> Same move proration

6D -> 70%

2D -> 80%

3D -> 85%

4D -> 80%

8D -> 85%

I'm not exactly sure how it works tho, I'm guessing its like if you do 3 6Ds in 1 combo, then your 6Ds do 100%,70%,49% of its damage after all the other proration is handled.

Wouldnt make much sense for it to do 100%, 70%, 70% after all.

I'm guessing it stacks because if I do bang's 623B (30% same move proration) like 4 times, the last one does like 10 damage

ZONG: would you please put up a very detailed description about doing the 2]D[ loop?

Detailed description of 2]D[ loops: 2]D[ can deactivate neesan

from Zong:

If you have a reliable way to deactivate in between j.2C 2D's, let me know.

ATM, I think your timing will only be reliable for de/reactivate after an 8D.

We'll leave out volante and 4D variations for now.

2D loop set ups include, but aren't limited to:

2A > 2B > 3C > IAD Allecan > 5C > j.B > 8D

whatever > 5B > 2B > 2D release > 6B > RC > 5B > 2D hit

Allecan > 5B > 5C > 6D > j.C > 2B > 3C > j.2C Allecan > 2D

6A > sj.B > Allegretto > 8D

blocked sandwich pressure > vivace A > 4D hit > vivace A > forward dash > opponent crosses over > 5B > sj.B > Allegretto > 8D

CON throw > 2D > j.2C Allecan

(more to be included, I'm at work, and trying to do this off the top of my head. Kyle, add more if you can.)

off of any 8D set up, you're going to IAD j.2C+2D release at about Nirvana's chest level. You can let her deactivate after the 8D and reactivate during IAD. In most cases, you're going to get two reps with j.C and one with j.B.

After j.2C 2D release, it's j.C 2D, don't mash this out. Something about this can make nothing come out at all, plus it's smart to know timings for your inputs anyway. You may think you'll have more of a chance to get the right input, but this has caused more problems for me than good. Learn the timing.

Once 2D hits, you're either going to be on the same side as when you started, or your opponent will have bounced over you, no matter.

Same side:

Backdash, repeat. Setup > j.2C 8D > backdash > 9j.2C 2D release > j.C 2D hit > backdash > 9j.2C 2D release > j.B 2D hit...

If your opponent bounces over you, it's because your jC 2D hit a little high, but this isn't a problem.

I would say backdash, and then keep walking. Yes, just hold 4 and D. If they did bounce behind you, you will backdash and walk back to your original side and continue normally. If you don't walk nirvana with you though, the backdash and walk back will have put you out of range for the next 2D to hit, so when re adjusting that set up, remember: you're basically moving the whole set up a little bit further back. This included your opponents higher bounce back, you walking back, and nirvana walking with you. All three must be positioned correctly for you to continue/pick up your combo.

After backdash, just hold 4D, like I said. You'll be moving the set up closer again. Use 9jump and j.1C release 1D for this rep. Yes, 1D. This moves nirvana SLIGHTLY during your j.1C animation, and makes sure that she's in range if you're not sure she walked far enough. This is only a slight movement for her, but helps for added security. We don't want our opponent to tech here, ever.

follow up > j.2C Allegretto > 8D for this is the same, but you want to hit the j.2C a little higher than before, preferably moving nirvana a little closer, as well, with the use of 7jump or 7D input. This is for two hit 8D ender. I usually see it done/get it to work myself by not backdashing for the ender. It helps to stay almost directly under the opponent, then 7j.2C[D] > 214C7]D[. This will hopefully get them to hit the back of 8D, and bounce once more onto the outer shockwave (2nd hit.) It is safe to de/reactivate nirvana here, and the timing of that is completely up to you. I usually see reactivation done right before the jump, or during the j.2C, but this is player preference.

I'll post the whole loop, complete with 3 reps, off of a 2A. This will be the most you can get from 2A, so you're not going to have the option of volante or 4D loops. (I say this, because I fear multiple 2D loops off of moves that prorate well will soon become obsolete, and will be replaced with 8D, Volante, and 4D reps, for optimum damage.)

Since you can't get those reps off of 2A, here is the optimum 2A starter version.

I'll try and make the notation as detailed as possible.

2A > 2B > 3C > 22D > IAD j.2C Allecan > j.B > j.C > 8D & Deactivate > [D] j.2C + 2]D[ > j.C > 2D hit (adjust spacing if needed)> j.2C+2D Release > j.C > 2D hit (adjust spacing if needed)> j.2C+2D Release > j.B > 2D Hit (readjust spacing, stay almost under opponent this time) (Deactivate) > 7j.2C (slightly higher) > j.2C[D] (Nivana reactivation) > 214C7]D[.

Kyle, let me know if you want me to explain something further.

Also, feel completely free to clarify anything you feel I'm vague about/ didn't explain well.

[ZONG_one]

Take a look. Let me know if I suck at clarifying. >.<

I edited into your giant post, kyle. I kept mine in italics, so you can move/make changes according to your organizational needs.

[Mascarpone]

Interesting idea:

6A -> Jumping A Spam pushing them towards the clap wave

If they miss the wave and tech forward is there enough space / can carl jump high enough to do a 7jump backwards and grab them for a tech trap?

[ZONG_one]

Sorry, I hit edit on yours, instead of quoting.

*FACEPALM*

Here was my response.

If you actually hit them with 6A, you would get them to clap with other moves. (one example being j.b > allegretto.) The problem with j.A spam, is you're not going to be able to combo off of it, even if it hits clap. the proration will have gone to shit. j.A spam on block is totally viable though, as it can lead to unblockable set ups.

Tech traps seem too hard/risky with Carl.

It might be plausible, but I wouldn't really plan on going for it, as strat. Only if it looked like I could. Kind of gimmicky.

[Mascarpone]

Well i've just seen matches where they do j.a spam and the wave comes out but both carl and opponent are clearly too high in the air for it to be effective at all. and in such a case the opponent ALWAYS techs forward because neutral/back will have them falling into the wave. just wondered if this could be monopolized on. scare tactics.

[ZONG_one]

Try it and let me know how it works out.

I just don't think it would work all the time, like most tech traps don't work all the time.

I try every once in a while, and I find it hard to airthrow tech trap with Carl.

[Roldy]

Is 5C (low air hit) > Cantata > 8]D[ a viable trap? It depends if the opponent techs or not, but if they do tech they can't really go anywhere...and they're forced to block until Cantata is over so 8]D[ can hit them right?

[ZONG_one]

If they tech toward you, they'll most likely go over/behind you. Meaning, free punish.

(In the case of Hakumen, full charge FCH 6C. > death.)

[Kyle]

Yes it's legit in the corner!

[Kyle]

J.B+C, THROW BREAK

So, after much practice. I have found (2) Viable options Nirvana can do during an Airthrow break situation.

I-623]D[

The timing is right before your opponent breaks the throw, release the D button. This is NOT an UB, but rather a meaty attack after a throw break. 1 of very few in the game. On hit, Carl can pick-up with SJ.B, Allegreto, 8]D[... This is DMG on top of the BnB that put you there. If the opponent doesn't break the low airthrow, Bria whiffs, and we are in position to J.B+C~623]D[ all over again until they do break the attack. Finally, this can lead to an UB on Tager when timed well. Tension-less, pickups either way.

II-8]D[

The timing for this is RIDICULOUS. After training for over an hour I believe this only works if your opponent breaks the throw during a specific 1-2 frame window of ADA's animation. With that being said, I can not get it consistently in training while the CPU first frame throw breaks. This means, if you do set-up for the throw break, 8]D[ relaunch, your opponent can delay the throw break by a at least 1-2frames and escape the setup. =( If anyone else has insight on this please contribute.

The 2]D[ loop

A few more details to add onto Kyle/Zong's break down.

-8]D[ & 2]D[ both have (2) different hit effects.

2]D[ hits grounded(opponent too close to the floor) opponent, they launch pretty high

2]D[ hits aerial opponent, they launch MASSIVELY high

8]D[ hits twice simultaneously, no launch, the opponent just falls to the floor

8]D[ hits stagger, launch much higher

In order to do the 2]D[ loops combos, you must get the aerial 2]D[ launch & the 8]D[ staggered hits.

The appropriate starters really depend on the spacing of Nirvana/opponent.

Here's what I find successful:

SUMMON COMBO...2B, 3C, 22]D[, IAD, J.2C, Alle~can, J.B, J.C, 8]D[ (staggered hits), deactivate, reactivate, J.2C...

OPPONENT FAR AWAY NO SUMMON...6A, SJ.B, Allegreto, 8]D[ (Staggered), IAD, J.2C, J.C, 2]D[...

SUMMON COMBO, NIRVANA MUST CONTINUOUSLY WALK BACKWARDS...2B, 3C, 22]D[, IAD, J.2C, Alle~can, J.B, Allegreto, 8]D[ (Hits staggered), deactivate, IAD, Reactivate, J.2C, J.C, 2]D[...

Lastly, for the actual inputs.

-J.2C is input BEFORE 2]D[ is input

-Listen for a rhythm. 1,2,3,wait, 4

7-jump, J.1C, 1]D[, wait, [C]

[ZONG_one]

To learn timing for first frame throw breaks won't even help, since no one's reaction time is that good.

D:

8D doesn't seem like it's going to be used. I do know what you mean about 8D still coming out though. It's happened to me ONCE, in the 9 months that I've been playing this game.

[Zoogstin]

To properly test the 8D setup I'd recommend recording carl as the CPU and you play the character who has to throwbreak.

[Kyle]

updated post

[Mascarpone]

I think it's worth mentioning that following up on Carl's FCH j.B is pretty hight dependant. If it's high in the air i find it easiest to land, walk forward slightly and then 5C sj.C 2j.C j.C jc j.C ... then depending on my hight, j.2C Allegretto or just Allegretto.. take out the j.2C if you're closer to their feet. you lose about 500 damage if you're too low but at least you don't plummet to the ground from a whiffed j.2C. (which also loses you 800 instead of 500)

If you hit them when they are on the ground or almost on the ground i usually need to land > IAD j2.C Alle~can 5C sj <yada yada yada> .. this usualy does not seem to put me high enough to do the last j.2C before the allegretto but the alle~can damage makes up for it.

the spacing after the 5C sjc (and therefore the rest of the combo) seems to be Dependant on what part of your 5C they hit and how high/low. if they hit close to carl, anticipate high spacing; if they hit low and away from carl, there's a good chance your sjc j.C will whiff, but if not, anticipate high spacing. If they hit high and away from carl, think low.

Also if you happen to hit them with it when they are dead-pinched in the corner (idk why you would but it could happen...) they are going to bounce off the wall and fall behind you, and 5C wont be fast enough to pick them up but you -can- 6A sjc j.C j.2C yada yada yada. only about 2800 damage though.

Also if you are smack dab in the corner and you hit them from the air you should be able to air dash kara-drop then 5C yada yada yada but i have not actually played with that yet. grounded hit seems to have no viable options without nirvana.

But yeah i thought it was worth mentioning (because i didn't see it anywhere in writing yet) that you need to follow up according to launch height :O

more editing: on further inspection proper follow up seems to be character specific ; -;

[Kyle]

After last nights matches:

ConAnima, Break. J.B fuzzy is too unpractical... In the next few days I will try 5C, 8-jump, ConAnima, Break, AirDash, J.B, J.C...

JB+C, Break, Bria is powerful, especially in the corner w/o tension, or after a corner Cantata, 8]D[, 6A

Corner Cantata resets is powerful

J.A tricks are LEGIT

Tager UB is ideal. Air Tager = no command throws!

While entering the corner: after a dinky ground combo into J.B, Allegreto: 2-8 SJ.A puts all opponents techs in block stun.

I have not, (and lost interest) found a legitimate JB+C, Break 8]D[ set-up.

GGS to Zoogstin!

[Bacon4thetakin]

Hey guys, I'm starting to play Carl more and I wanted all of your opinions on whether or not this seems like an applicable/smart combo.

I was messing around in training mode and found out the following string worked-

4BC, 22]D[ (upon grab), 236A, 2C, 214214D, j.214C, 8]D[, forward dash, 2C, Continue the Carl Clap.

The thing is the timing and placement on the allegretto is pretty hard to nail consistently, but I've made this work multiple times. I does just about 4k and has no holes until the 3rd or 4th clap in which they can still get caught and reset the proration.

So yeah, I'm just wondering if this sounds like a useful tactic or some scrubby/sloppy combo that really shouldn't be pursued :P

[Marionette Pwii]

oh wow so many loops I haven't heard about .-. ok to be honest,I can NOT do any of them DX my brain shuts down right when I plan it so I'm like "ok screw this I'm going *insert useless combo here*" did it work? -no- "FFFF" so if all else fails,whats a good comeback?

[ZONG_one]

I keep accidentally hitting edit on people's post instead of quote, my apologies.

OMFG I'M SCRUB I'LL LEARN HOW TO DO THIS SOMEDAY. D:

@ Pwii:

If you're confident in your excecution/ confident that your opponent will not block a reset, you can be risky and go for it. Standing resets are very strong, but a smart player will get out. The risk is high reward though, if it hits.

Other than that 2D loops are guaranteed damage, with oki, which isn't bad either. If you get a good starter, I'd go for that.

Carl has pretty good comeback potential.

[Mascarpone]

side note: I felt like such a leach in CT days so i'm trying to find useful crap to contribute these days. feel free to tell me if it's useless/redundant info tho

[ZONG_one]

Even if you're not sure if an idea is bad, post it.

That way, if it is indeed bad, you'll probably have a suggestion as to the best thing to use instead.

(This is called learning. )

Progress born from bad ideas? Nothing wrong with that.

(Not saying your ideas are bad, just a general thought regarding anyone who feels too nervous to post or whatever.)

[soujiro seta]

I'm so sorry guys, I haven't come her in forever. Tsubaki took hold of me and didn't let go. I haven't even posted the stuff I have. Now I'm trying to learn makoto. Don't worry carl will always be my number 1. I feel so bad for leaving you shotas behind like that. I feel like I betrayed this forum. Plz forgive me.

[ZONG_one]

<3 stay free, soujiro. :P

[ZONG_one]

*sorry to bump*

Kyle/anyone else, do you have/remember where the link to the most recent frame data/zetaboards update is?

>.>

I seem to remember something of the sort posted recently, and I didn't have the time to completely look it over. Looking for special move characteristics, descriptions, frames, etc.