[CS1] Iron Tager Video Thread

That aside - Spinny/Terra after long combo to Spark isn't worth doing unless they'll die. Spinny to Gadget kinda is, but saving your meter > spending it all. You don't Gadget - remember, AC after Gadget cleanly beats Hotaru, one of the only moves in the game that does, so Gadget isn't as bad against Haku as it could be.

Don't forget you can charge the Spark if Haku's far away. Skip past some of the boredom that way.

4C is -5, so if they are magnetized and you IB it, a 720 is freeee since you buy yourself the extra frames to pull him in...practice that if you are so inclined.

You get impatient, too; I know it's hard not to, but your best offense in this match is walking!

For his part, he needs to remember that he can counter pretty much anything after Tager's 5C. He lets you get 5C->5D a few times, which is easy for Haku to catch.

mAc Chaos · September 17, 2010

I thought it was exciting, not boring.

I noticed I could've countered a lot more 5Ds, but at the time I was too terrified of getting CH out of anything :P Also I did try to counter it quite a few times, but the timing changed from CT so I kept hitting it too late or too early or right as he hit me so nothing came out. Gotta hit training mode and get the muscle memory down again.

I figured he'd have to do something besides 5D me at some point, since I was just blocking it, so I kept waiting for him to do something I could poke him out of. Of course it didn't always work, and it would have been better to just counter it. :P

natearistata · September 17, 2010

Oh it wasn't boring, lol. Some match-ups in this game are not meant to be fast-paced beat em ups, and that's definitely one of them.

A.X.I.S. · September 17, 2010

Yeah Hakumen is like that, whoever falls asleep first loses. :^(
That aside - Spinny/Terra after long combo to Spark isn't worth doing unless they'll die. Spinny to Gadget kinda is, but saving your meter > spending it all. You don't Gadget - remember, AC after Gadget cleanly beats Hotaru, one of the only moves in the game that does, so Gadget isn't as bad against Haku as it could be.
Don't forget you can charge the Spark if Haku's far away. Skip past some of the boredom that way.
4C is -5, so if they are magnetized and you IB it, a 720 is freeee since you buy yourself the extra frames to pull him in...practice that if you are so inclined.
You get impatient, too; I know it's hard not to, but your best offense in this match is walking!

For his part, he needs to remember that he can counter pretty much anything after Tager's 5C. He lets you get 5C->5D a few times, which is easy for Haku to catch.

thanks...I was afraid hotaru would beat collider, so I was afraid to throw it out, CT scars man CT scars.

I seriously don't know why I got impatient, the other night when I played mac I lost the first 2 matches trying to get in and kill him but then I learned that j.C is pimp status and it takes shit from no one.

thanks for the advice.

next time I play mac he will be in rehab.

funny thing all the times I played I broke mac's guard because he was trying to escape pressure and I don't like that and tager isn't free.

Leo7 · September 17, 2010

yea i just want to echo eda and say you missed a lot of possible confirms off various j.Ds. j.D leads to big damage, you should always try to confirm those (even blackbeat non-ch ones, because mac wasn't teching right away).

i notice you like mixing between 6b > asledge and 6b > 6c. why not try out 6b > 5d at some point. 5d is safer on block.

also, imo, you needed more anti-air 2a's and anti-air colliders. there were a lot of times where mac was in the air magnetized (collider) and a bunch of times where he was right above your head starting an air attack which is perfect for a CH 2a. i personally use anti-air 2A a lot in this match-up if the haku-men likes being up close for whatever reason.

also j.b combos

edit: oh and bait bursts more (there should probably be a proper discussion of this somewhere later).

mac isn't as tick throw happy as i remember him.

Heroic_Legacy · September 17, 2010

Few things I noted.

Fuck online play. Must suck not being able to IB or hit confirm. Offline ftw.

You let him jump in on you way too many times without any semblance of anti air until the last match where you 2C'd him.

You let him out of the corner with combos to get an extra 800 damage. Sure damage is damage. But positioning is like Boardwalk and Park Place. It cost you right now but in a few seconds it's about to pay off dividends.

Disguise your tick 720s and tick j.C whythefuckdidthatmessup. 5a x2 5b isn't that good. You have good buttons now that can actually put you at advantages. Use em as tick throws too.

You get panicked real easy. I saw a few wakeup 360s (Blocking is useful. Haku-Men isn't exactly the messiah of safe pokes.)and 360A whiff > 360A. Not to mention crazy sj.C usage.

You do random spark a lot. A good Haku might j.2A or j.2C that bolt and then you realized you aren't holding the threat you're firing it asap when the neutral game gets boring.

Even if he doesn't tech after magnetism...AC pulls them in on bounce, Gadget Finger pulls them in on grounded status. If you push him away in a combo and he isn't teching, Pull him right back in. Why force the neutral game again?

2B more in pressure strings.

mAc Chaos · September 17, 2010

mac isn't as tick throw happy as i remember him.

Is that bad? :P I still like tick throws~

I dunno how much it factored into the anti air usage, but in our other matches and in these I was trying to bait 2C a lot, and if I positioned myself right I could make his 2C whiff and just CH him out of it, or cross him up into a combo.

Also: neat idea with j.2A'ing Spark! I never thought of that. The most I was willing to do with Spark was just wait it out or psychic 4C it but that was risky.

Mike Z · September 17, 2010

Mac - I did not mean those were boring matches, at all. They were pretty hype, actually. Playing vs. Haku is boring when I do it, maybe not for other people. :^) As Tager, letting yourself worry about getting in makes it that much easier to mess up, and the only alternative for me is sitting around doing 2B all day.

AXIS - Yeah, convincing yourself that Collider isn't going to get you Fatal'd takes a while, heh, but the reward is way worth it. I won't repeat "you didn't follow up your Ds", but I will say that you should go learn the slightly better combos. For example, there's pretty much no reason to ever do ACx2, 2B when you can do 6B, especially since it lets you end with better stuff. One thing to add to your poking game is 6A - if you do it at the right range, even if Haku counters it successfully you won't get hit. It's risky, but so is absolutely anything in that match. ;^)

Also remember about 4D - you can do blockstrings to 4D, which is much safer against Haku since he can't IB and counter the 4D's hit like he can with chain to ASledge or 5D. 4D even beats his 4C if you do it approximately at the same time.

And yes, save that Spark. Use the threat of it to get in, not the Spark itself - if Mac were ready for it, the most a random Spark will get you is a black orb.

It's a pity I don't have a 360 to play on...

OrionXElite · September 17, 2010

Is that bad? :P I still like tick throws~

I dunno how much it factored into the anti air usage, but in our other matches and in these I was trying to bait 2C a lot, and if I positioned myself right I could make his 2C whiff and just CH him out of it, or cross him up into a combo.

Also: neat idea with j.2A'ing Spark! I never thought of that. The most I was willing to do with Spark was just wait it out or psychic 4C it but that was risky.

In one of the last 2 videos, I noticed you did that and it was godlike. You had the spacing of his 2C PERFECT. Good shit.

Also Axis, one thing that would've really helped, psychic Colliders. Mac was jumping out on you EVERY time, you should've stopped going for tick throws after a few times and baited his jumps more. That would've saved you a lot. So in general, if someone gets jump happy, call his ass out on it and make them really scared to move, THEN you can start the real mind games:yaaay:

Heroic_Legacy · September 17, 2010

But by putting yourself out of 2C range you put yourself in 2A/AC range. If Axis had noticed it instead of thinking j.2C beats all his AAs you'd never be jumping in the general proximity of Tager again. Yeah crossups are alright but Haku really doesn't need to be near Tager in this fight.

Leo7 · September 17, 2010

I just plain don't use 2C a lot as an anti-air BECAUSE it can be easily baited (not just by making it whiff; IB Barrier can screw you over if you don't confirm properly). It's a lot harder to bait a 2A or an air throw.

Also AXIS, I say you should try doing more meaty 2B's on oki when you knock them down in the corner (also do it to possibly punish techrolls/quick get-ups).

Seifuuku · September 17, 2010

can't you just auto pilot to 4d if they just block 2c

Leo7 · September 17, 2010

You can check the frame data, but I've had my 2C IB + Barriered and then I've been counter hit out of my 4D afterwards before.

Mike Z · September 17, 2010

You can check the frame data

OK!

2C: 2 active, 39 recovery, -22 on block. Let's say we figure it with just the recovery. 39-22 = 17f of blockstun, and it's probably 18 because of that last active frame getting counted as recovery by frame data. 4D startup is 13, meaning (I think) it actually hits on 14.

So we'll go with the numbers that put Tager in the worst position: 17f of blockstun and 4D hitting on 14. That gives you a solid blockstring if not IB'd, 2 frames for the opponent to do something if they IB, and 1f if they IB+Barrier. (If the blockstun is 18, then it's solid if they IB+Barrier, and they have 1f to punish if they IB but they had to do it standing.)

This compared to them not even having to IB to punish in-between 5C->5D, which was my initial point. Harder for them = better.

Also, Leo, remember you can chain well after the move actually touches them, so if you're doing the 4D on reaction to a simple 2C being blocked, chances are you're chaining later and therefore gave them a longer punish window.

Leo7 · September 17, 2010

That's assuming they IB barrier on the ground right? I'm talking in the air which should give them 5 more frames of frame advantage (edit: lol this sentence is wrong. read below).

Edit: Level 4 attacks have 18 frames of blockstun, so yea. That's correct.

Edit2: ok after bothering to check the dustloop system guide, air + ib + barrier = 11 frames of blockstun for a level 4 attack. So yea, still a small window.

The late chaining thing is definitely the problem though, since my reactions aren't great, so it takes a while for me to confirm that they're blocking.

Mike Z · September 18, 2010

I actually completely ignore the "X frames of blockstun for a Lv whatever attack" because there are times it has disagreed with the blockstun derived from the frate data...not just times, it disagrees more than it agrees!

I use the Blockstun = (active frames - 1) + (recovery frames) - (static difference) to figure out blockstun on the ground, then use the IB = -5F etc to figure out the change in whatever situation.

Commanderoftroy · September 18, 2010

Mac - I did not mean those were boring matches, at all. They were pretty hype, actually. Playing vs. Haku is boring when I do it, maybe not for other people. :^) As Tager, letting yourself worry about getting in makes it that much easier to mess up, and the only alternative for me is sitting around doing 2B all day.

AXIS - Yeah, convincing yourself that Collider isn't going to get you Fatal'd takes a while, heh, but the reward is way worth it. I won't repeat "you didn't follow up your Ds", but I will say that you should go learn the slightly better combos. For example, there's pretty much no reason to ever do ACx2, 2B when you can do 6B, especially since it lets you end with better stuff. One thing to add to your poking game is 6A - if you do it at the right range, even if Haku counters it successfully you won't get hit. It's risky, but so is absolutely anything in that match. ;^)
Also remember about 4D - you can do blockstrings to 4D, which is much safer against Haku since he can't IB and counter the 4D's hit like he can with chain to ASledge or 5D. 4D even beats his 4C if you do it approximately at the same time.
And yes, save that Spark. Use the threat of it to get in, not the Spark itself - if Mac were ready for it, the most a random Spark will get you is a black orb.

It's a pity I don't have a 360 to play on...

Haha i believe i offered in the CT days to buy you a 360 to play on Mike, i may have even offered to get ya an online subscription.

A.X.I.S. · September 18, 2010

I read all of it and I have to say thank you.

the matches with mac was kinda laggy so my normal tactic's just went out the window.

when I fight haku and he hits the ground my biggest concern is 2D or jump...jump because of hotaru and 2D because of damage.

I tried 2A but I got CH'd for it, truth is I never had much luck with 2A, and colliders funky hitbox got me CH'd more times than I can even count (collider won't grab some people if they are too close.) and now I must tell you my weakness...reaction, I tend not to react to things I should react to and because of that I force myself to play really really recklessly which is why I generally do risky things like tagers 6B...something that takes times to do...

I have no idea why I didn't use 4D or 5D after 6B...it was one of those times in which I wasn't completely sharp.

I am taking all this to heart and I am gonna sit on it.

also mike there was some spiky moments so 6B>2C was something I didn't want to do.

the reason why I didn't hit confirm those CH J.D's was because I was too far to connect or if he chose to tech seeing my poke I would not like the reply, keep in mind when I fight haku I think of the most bullshitiest thing he can do in any given moment, but you guys are right I should have tried to confirm it! I know those combo's but I don't know what I was doing.

also its 4AM so I am not making sense so if you guys escuse me I am gonna absorb this and get some Z's.

fohstick · September 19, 2010

i don't know if it has been posted, but does anyone have the link to that mikeZ video involving two sparkball > astral heat in a row?

Sponson · September 20, 2010

i don't know if it has been posted, but does anyone have the link to that mikeZ video involving two sparkball > astral heat in a row?

2... spark bolts?

natearistata · September 20, 2010

He could've been using unlimited, I guess. Or training. :/

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