How to make GG more user friendly...

[shezmu]

Without nuking the engine clean? Well with the way the new fighters are "evolving" in the current day environment, it's... not likely that the next GG won't be altered in some way to make it more... casual friendly... ugh. So, While we still have a long way to go before we get another gg, we might as well post our thoughts on how GG can be changed to make it easier to pick up without gutting it in the hopes that Aksys is still reading this forum. Not being a pro myself, I can't really think of many ways to make the game easier though I can think of one thing off the bat: lengthening the FRC windows. Of course this doesn't necessarily mean allowing people to FRC moves earlier as that could lead to balancing issues, but I can't think of an example of a move that would be made broken or even better if you could FRC it later than currently possible. Your thoughts, guys?

[Luv-Sic]

It's fine the way it is. If you lengthen the FRC window....might as well just scrap the idea all together and just use Roman Cancels, oh wait that's Blazblue.

[Effay]

I think implementing a system similar to Blazblue's system where you can hold a button and it will repeat the input for five frames would help without breaking the game.

[Kojanue]

Agreed. I like the challenging gameplay to be honest. It makes my mornings when I do play it intense enough to keep me awake for school xD

[Zerite]

Making the game more casual friendly just makes the game have less gradations of skill. The short frc window is to allow for players with better execution to have an advantage over players with worse execution. Taking this out just makes the difference between those two levels of execution (which honestly are pretty far apart) less important than it is now. This is without thinking about any balance issues it introduces. Part of the reason GG is such a good game is because of how demanding it is on the player. In many games (soul caliber for example) new players can mash and scrape out wins. In GG, that would have to be some pretty magical mashing. I mean, part of the whole identity of the game is how hard it is to play well, and how well it can be played. The best way to make the game more casual friendly is to include a training mode that is actually effective at training players to be better. They made some attempts at this in previous games with missions(#reload), but those weren't serious or very effective. You know. Something with basic combos programmed into it so that players can try doing a target BnB combo and then be told why it failed. Ie. You seem to have missed the frc timing; you did not jump install quickly enough, you pressed the button too soon, you pressed the button too late, you appear to be pressing more buttons than are necessary more times than necessary, and so on. Non-obvious combos could have tips like 'you should release the buttons for special moves to negative edge them in this combo'. It's very unlikely that the basic combos that were in the game would actually be good, but if players used it, it would give the the experience and execution they need to play well.

[Circuitous]

Actually a tutorial mode like that would be amazing.

[Blade]

Userfriendly = Noob-easy. That's hard to do with advanced fighting games who are sequels of sequels, the goal with most is the improve on the last installment. There's a limit to what you can do with RCs/FRCs before the game becomes ridiculous, that's why some moves in BlazBlue can't be rapid cancelled. What's more, there's a limit to how simple a character is allowed to play before you tread into 'broken' territory. Ease of use usually involves moves that get the job done...it's very rare that a character is easy to use initially, but doesn't have the advantages that having easy to use moves normally has. In my 10+ years experience with fighting games, the best things to learn are the most basic things, stuff like blocking techniques, jumping techniques, your options in various states, and overall motion inputs. Combos can be learned anytime. I've met people who don't even bother learning combos, they just play intuitively. And half the time...the best stuff I've learned is stuff I learned on Forums, so there you go. By fans, for fans. If there was something that could be improved, I'd say an input demonstration for universal sample combos and being able to jump in any time and try them till you learn your own, like the Tekken games.

[bucklemyshoe]

Not being a pro myself, I can't really think of many ways to make the game easier though I can think of one thing off the bat: lengthening the FRC windows. Of course this doesn't necessarily mean allowing people to FRC moves earlier as that could lead to balancing issues, but I can't think of an example of a move that would be made broken or even better if you could FRC it later than currently possible.

Your thoughts, guys?

Yea they did that in AC+ you can expand the window to 20 frames. To be honest it doesn't do much good, once you learn the FRC timing it's not difficult to do. Not to mention the trick is usually what to do immediately after the FRC itself.

How to make GG more user friendly? easy! port it to 360 and ps3.

[NasaXnieru]

When I first picked up GG back when I didn't have a great understanding of fighting games I found it to be fairly accessible. Gatling combos, cool random combos after dust, and standard input motions for most specials (236x fireball etc) gave you a sense of accomplishment for doing basic stuff. Getting really good at the game (or any good fighter for that matter) is hard, it doesn't need to be any easier. The majority of people who I've introduced GG to have had a lot of fun with it. . .I think that the casual friendliness is already there, it just needs a popularity boost so more people know that the game exists.

[Kristoph]

Part of the reason GG is such a good game is because of how demanding it is on the player. In many games (soul caliber for example) new players can mash and scrape out wins. In GG, that would have to be some pretty magical mashing. I mean, part of the whole identity of the game is how hard it is to play well, and how well it can be played.

Arbitrary, prohibitively-difficult execution requirements are almost never beneficial to any significant extent. it's almost insulting that you would consider Guilty Gear's depth contingent on something like a tiny FRC window. I'm not saying that there aren't potentially legitimate issues, like balance, that could potentially come into play, or need to be addressed, as a result of (sloppily) lightened execution requirements. "Maintaining the gap between high-execution players and not-so-high-execution players" simply is not one of them.

I think it's also rather silly that you reference Soul Caliber yet ignore HDR; if that game is hindered by its lightened execution requirements (and not the "collateral damage" some of it may or may not have caused, not that I'm aware of any), I'd love to hear some examples.

Guilty Gear would be fine if it were made more user-friendly; it's only when that actually interferes with the rest of the game's design (like it arguably does in Blazblue) that it becomes a problem.

[Guilty Soul]

When I first picked up GG back when I didn't have a great understanding of fighting games I found it to be fairly accessible. Gatling combos, cool random combos after dust, and standard input motions for most specials (236x fireball etc) gave you a sense of accomplishment for doing basic stuff. Getting really good at the game (or any good fighter for that matter) is hard, it doesn't need to be any easier. The majority of people who I've introduced GG to have had a lot of fun with it. . .I think that the casual friendliness is already there, it just needs a popularity boost so more people know that the game exists.

well said I felt the same way when I 1st played. "casual friendly?" BlazBlue isn't "casual friendly" enough for you?? Leave the fighting system the same, introduce some news unique characters, and finish the rest of the storyline thats what I want in the new GG if there is gonna be one, i hope.

[Shine]

You don't need to change anything. Just put a tutorial mode like vf4 and we're good.

[Blackgenma]

Arbitrary, prohibitively-difficult execution requirements are almost never beneficial to any significant extent. it's almost insulting that you would consider Guilty Gear's depth contingent on something like a tiny FRC window. I'm not saying that there aren't potentially legitimate issues, like balance, that could potentially come into play, or need to be addressed, as a result of (sloppily) lightened execution requirements. "Maintaining the gap between high-execution players and not-so-high-execution players" simply is not one of them.

I think it's also rather silly that you reference Soul Caliber yet ignore HDR; if that game is hindered by its lightened execution requirements (and not the "collateral damage" some of it may or may not have caused, not that I'm aware of any), I'd love to hear some examples.

Guilty Gear would be fine if it were made more user-friendly; it's only when that actually interferes with the rest of the game's design (like it arguably does in Blazblue) that it becomes a problem.

Interesting opinion.

HDR = HD remix right? HDR is awesome, and is a great example of what your saying.

[Shaker]

I think people forget that BB is still a ruddy complicated game in comparison to say, 98% of all fighting games. GG should stay put though. That training mode could make the entire game for SF players if done right. PS. What's HDR? Sorry, i'll probably know if i'm told what it stands for.

[Blackgenma]

HDR stands for Super Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix. it was released on xbox360 and ps3 via download. it's a rebalanced version of SSF2T with some things made easier, such as certain command executions and such. an example would be 360 throws.

[Effay]

Arbitrary, prohibitively-difficult execution requirements are almost never beneficial to any significant extent. it's almost insulting that you would consider Guilty Gear's depth contingent on something like a tiny FRC window. I'm not saying that there aren't potentially legitimate issues, like balance, that could potentially come into play, or need to be addressed, as a result of (sloppily) lightened execution requirements. "Maintaining the gap between high-execution players and not-so-high-execution players" simply is not one of them.

I think it's also rather silly that you reference Soul Caliber yet ignore HDR; if that game is hindered by its lightened execution requirements (and not the "collateral damage" some of it may or may not have caused, not that I'm aware of any), I'd love to hear some examples.

Guilty Gear would be fine if it were made more user-friendly; it's only when that actually interferes with the rest of the game's design (like it arguably does in Blazblue) that it becomes a problem.

I strongly agree.

Supposedly there's a bug in Zangief's new easier motion for his 360's (like you can't do it from one side or something) but other than that I don't think there are any issues (you can do it the old way too).

Another example of a game that was hindered by 'noobifying' was Street Fighter IV. The new dragon punch motions make it real easy to accidentally do a dragon punch. That and the larger reversal windows make getting knocked down not as big of a disadvantage since it's real easy to dragon punch meaties (though I do like no having an arbitrarily small window for a reversal like 1 frame, but that's a different debate).

Also, where does the user friendliness hinder Blazblue? I mean, the game has issues no doubt, but how exactly does user friendliness contribute?

[Blackgenma]

I strongly agree.

Supposedly there's a bug in Zangief's new easier motion for his 360's (like you can't do it from one side or something) but other than that I don't think there are any issues (you can do it the old way too).

Another example of a game that was hindered by 'noobifying' was Street Fighter IV. The new dragon punch motions make it real easy to accidentally do a dragon punch. That and the larger reversal windows make getting knocked down not as big of a disadvantage since it's real easy to dragon punch meaties (though I do like no having an arbitrarily small window for a reversal like 1 frame, but that's a different debate).

Also, where does the user friendliness hinder Blazblue? I mean, the game has issues no doubt, but how exactly does user friendliness contribute?

what does the word arbitrary mean by the way?

and excessively easy reversals isn't really a problem in my eyes, if the moron is pulling a reversal, just block and punish. you know, mix it up and think. problem solved. things actually beat reversals you know, so making them easy doesn't really degenerate the game...well I think anyway.

[Effay]

what does the word arbitrary mean by the way?

and excessively easy reversals isn't really a problem in my eyes, if the moron is pulling a reversal, just block and punish. you know, mix it up and think. problem solved. things actually beat reversals you know, so making them easy doesn't really degenerate the game...well I think anyway.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/arbitrary

The third definition: 3 a : based on or determined by individual preference or convenience rather than by necessity or the intrinsic nature of something <an arbitrary standard> <take any arbitrary positive number> <arbitrary division of historical studies into watertight compartments — A. J. Toynbee> b : existing or coming about seemingly at random or by chance or as a capricious and unreasonable act of will <when a task is not seen in a meaningful context it is experienced as being arbitrary — Nehemiah Jordan>

Making it too easy to recover from being knocked down seems like it defeats the purpose of being knocked down. You're supposed to be at a disadvantage, and making reversals 1 frame in like they are in HDR is a way to do that, albeit a fairly high execution one (pianoing helps, but you won't always get exactly the move you want though).

I think increasing the start up frames for dragon punches (like Guilty Gear. Sol's DP's startup is 7 frames and in SFIV's Ryu's are 3 frames) would help fix that while you have a larger reversal window, since you'll have to plan farther in advance to have them connect (and you'll still be able to block and punish too, or you can psyche them out and go for the meaty anyway and if they hesitate they'll get hit).

As for specifically lessening Guilty Gear's execution without breaking the game, what if you increased the FRC window without actually letting it happen faster? The windows for most FRCs are approximately 1-3 frames, but what if you increased the window by five frames or so in front of the original window, but then the FRC actually happens at the original time? Unless I'm misinformed, there isn't really any reason to RC when you can FRC, so it won't cause any balance issues by letting you input the command earlier since the actual FRC happens at the same time as before.

[Blackgenma]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/arbitrary

The third definition: 3 a : based on or determined by individual preference or convenience rather than by necessity or the intrinsic nature of something <an arbitrary standard> <take any arbitrary positive number> <arbitrary division of historical studies into watertight compartments — A. J. Toynbee> b : existing or coming about seemingly at random or by chance or as a capricious and unreasonable act of will <when a task is not seen in a meaningful context it is experienced as being arbitrary — Nehemiah Jordan>

Making it too easy to recover from being knocked down seems like it defeats the purpose of being knocked down. You're supposed to be at a disadvantage, and making reversals 1 frame in like they are in HDR is a way to do that, albeit a fairly high execution one (pianoing helps, but you won't always get exactly the move you want though).

I think increasing the start up frames for dragon punches (like Guilty Gear. Sol's DP's startup is 7 frames and in SFIV's Ryu's are 3 frames) would help fix that while you have a larger reversal window, since you'll have to plan farther in advance to have them connect (and you'll still be able to block and punish too, or you can psyche them out and go for the meaty anyway and if they hesitate they'll get hit).

so your saying make them harder, but not crazy hard? yeah, makes sense, I agree. I just don't like the whole 1 frame reversal thing. seems...overkill. it's like a reversal is a mythical thing in sfII only found in legend when it comes to me doing it.

[Effay]

so your saying make them harder, but not crazy hard? yeah, makes sense, I agree. I just don't like the whole 1 frame reversal thing. seems...overkill. it's like a reversal is a mythical thing in sfII only found in legend when it comes to me doing it.

Yeah, that's basically what I'm saying. I mean, it's possible to consistently do reversals, but it's difficult, especially under the pressure of a real match.

[Klaige]

It's not the game that needs changing, it's simply the learning process. There's nothing that insanely difficult in guilty gear to learn for applying in practical match purposes. FRC's are not overly difficult execution, they are muscle memory. You can get good at them the same way you get good at shooting free throws in basketball, or playing a musical instrument with a lot of keys. Put a little time and embed the execution into your muscles, it's not that difficult. There's no FRC in the game you can't get down rather consistently inside 30 minutes of practice. Execution in guilty gear isn't as hard as some people like to think. My execution sucks shit through a straw, and I manage to hit what I want a lot more often than I drop it. The real "difficulty" in learning guilty gear comes from the need to experience various situations and various matchups. Learning combos, setups, okizeme, and zoning games: that's not insanely difficult or time consuming, it requires a little dedication in training mode. Even something as small as 20-30 minutes 4 or 5 days a week would vastly improve people's execution if they just work on it with some discipline. Guilty Gear is a game that is very rewarding, but that's only really noticed in 2 situations: A. When it's played by 2 opponents with very close relative knowledge, skill, and grasp of the game. B. When it's played at extremely high level (Major tournaments, Evo, SBO) So how do we achieve this stage in the game for more players? One way has already been answered: A tutorial mode. A good tutorial mode will do a few different things for a newer player. It would properly lead them step by step along the path to getting better and understanding the game as a whole. This can be execution, understand the system, explaining concepts like invulnerability to strikes or throws, properties of IB/FD/ etc. Guilty gear has a lot of working cogs in it's game system. It's a lot for someone to grasp, but anyone can learn if they have something guiding the way and they actually care to walk down the path a little further. A good tutorial will also know how to "dangle the carrot" and give a player learning glimpses at what lies down the road when they improve. Showing the application of a good mixup, or hitting a very useful combo, or showing rewards of properly instant blocking a string. You can't just put someone at the starting block, and say "somewhere over there, very far away is the finish line, now start running". For a tutorial to be effective it has to show you not only where to go, but what rewards lie ahead when you get there. The other side to this, is matchups and situational experience. Sadly no tutorial is going to be able to do this, it would take far too many resources to execute properly and besides the point is learning how to play against other living breathing humans. Which leads to the other "improvement" needed for guilty gear. It's been mentioned many times before: Online play. One of the reasons many players don't go far with gear is because the player base is too spread out to really enjoy it. You are only as good as your competition, and if your only competition is a guy who just likes to pick ky and shoot fireballs, your interest in the game is destined to have a short lifespan. I still am not a huge fan of Blazblue, but there is no denying what so ever that it's solid base for online play has allowed it to amass a very sizable player base in comparison. One where players who may have struggled in guilty gear, have been able to see some success because of their ability to learn multiple matchups and multiple situations. Knowledge as they say, is power: That is multiplied 10 fold in a competitive fighting game. Give a mediocre player access to multiple matchups and a chance to experience a situation that would otherwise befuddle him in a tournament setting due to lack of exposure, and you may find a player who becomes solid and able to deal with that same situation come tourney time. Basically Gear doesn't need an engine change or to be dumbed down. It's fine the way it is aside from the occassional tweak between versions (increased pushback, removing FDC and option select, etc.). What gear needs is the ability to help players wade into it's very large pool instead of being tossed into the deep end with no life preserver (a tutorial). And the ability to expose players to as many situations and matchups as possible so that they might actually learn more about the game as they play it (online play). My two cents. Sadly we won't be seeing either anytime soon.

[Jarv]

Piano inputs make reversals much much easier in HDR/ST. The new commands aren't mandatory, you can still pull off a 360 (it's more like a 270 anyways) with the original commands. Guilty Gear would be more user friendly if it was ported to XBLA/PSN, a little explanation of some of the systems (HDR gives an overview of what a 'meaty' attack is, MCV2 rerelease talks about assists and other stuff) as well as a practice mode on par with Virtua Fighter 4. But just putting it on 360/PS3 would make it easier thanks to increased audience who need a place to read up on Guilty Gear, like a forum or something. . .

[Mr. Mamation]

How do you make blaz blue less user friendly?

[zeech]

BB is too complicated for new users, even. (from trying to get SF3/4 players into the game). I think it's always going to be a problem for GG/BB games - every character has unique mechanics, there's a lot of meters, and a lot of subsystems. Combos are usually pretty long, and involve many different moves. FRC windows etc only matter to intermediate players. The hurdle for beginners is the large number of things to learn and know before being able to play the game at a basic level. Even something like BB's getting up system is a small hurdle, since players from other games will often forget to get up and thus lie there getting OTGed a fair bit. None of this matters to people who want to pick up a new FG. They'll read forums, practise, and do all it takes. But a big part of growing a community is introducing friends and other people to the game, by getting them to try it out, etc. This is a situation where the person only has an hour or so of access to the the game, he doesnt own it at home, and he's not going to waste time reading manuals or tutorial modes. How much fun they have during that hour is going to determine whether you get someone into the game or they go back to 3S or whatever they've already learned. It's also a time where you'll be playing them, and there will be a huge disparity in skill/knowledge. This is a problem all competitive games face. You're trying to get some friends into the game, but you'll be crushing them for at least a few weeks until they get better. Making this period of time meaningful is a big challenge. I think some sort of well-thought-out handicap mode, that makes the game more challenging for the better player and still educational for the weaker player, is pretty necessary. So yeah, I think the biggest issues are: - Amount of knowledge needed (which can be solved by standardising as much as possible - why do characters need different motions for moves? Melty has standard motions, and the standard combo works for almost everyone.) - Making the game fun for everyone even if there's a big skill difference. (a better handicap mode.)

[Blade]

IMO Street Fighter gamers will never understand Guilty Gear or BlazBlue...that's just how it's always been. I came out of Samurai Showdown 3, so understanding it wasn't that big of a jump.