GG:AC Official Tier List Thread

[Oiboi]

Seeing as how this thread is open again, lemme ask a few questions. While we already have a pretty good list to consider how strong a character is, we lack anything about mixups, which is a great deal of the game. To add to this, there's nothing about Oki tactics or wakeup options. I feel this is a huge thing to the game and every character, since if they cannot get a hit in any kind of abare ability or space control becomes more or less useless. Maybe this should also be considered for character strengths? Seeing the new tier list seems more accurate to me now, but I wonder what made Eddie and Testament remain S while the other higher tiers dropped a level? I didn't read the past pages, so sorry if I missed the discussion about this. Also, I find it odd so many characters are crammed into the C tier. All those characters are on equal footing with each other? Edit: Also, what the heck, I'll fill this out while I'm here. Zappa: Naked: * Average damage E: Combos are very short and tend to lead into Summon only. Air combos are possible but very difficult to reach a little over 100. * Max damage E: Max is about the same as average, for the same reasons; if he gets a combo, he's not going for damage, he's going for summon. * Pokes C: 6P and 5K beat out a ton of moves, and f.S can keep nearly anyone away and lead into a gauranteed summon combo. * Pressure D: Blockstrings are short and leave him rather vulnerable afterwards. * Mixup C: 5HS is a fast overhead but can be grabbed on hit, 6HS leaves him vulnerable on block but good on hit, 5D has grab invulnerability on it. All of his lows are fast and high priority, and he has a lot of them. * Okizeme C: 5D has grab invul, which can bait grab attempts. Spit can keep them from trying to jump or DP on wakeup. Overheads and a well timed 2HS can be tricky. * Against ground D: j.Hs is his only noteworthy air trick, as it hits backwards (Good crossup options). j.D also works for this, but not nearly as well and has little priority. * Against air C: 6P is an amazing anti-air, and summon will beat anything that doesn't. * Breaking out of pressure C: Summon will defeat or tradehit most moves in the game cleanly, with only one frame to execute safely it's an amazing move. * Defense C: Again, summone and 5K/6P can go around or beat out nearly any move in the game if timed properly. * In general situations C: The idea is to get a summon, so he won't be in this mode very long. Getting a summon hit in is great, but doesn't lead into a lot of damage or options. Dog: * Average damage C: Long combos and unblockables don't deal a lot of damage normally, but can almost always lead into another combo with unblockable setups. * Max damage A: Dog loop can deal a large amount of damage but is situational; a proper unblockable setup can lead to a semi-infinite unblockable loop by defeating wakeup. 2HS deals a lot of damage and has 2X dizzy modifier, and is a staple move for the dog. * Pokes B: 5K, 6P, and f.S are all still here, plus the dogs moves (5D, 8D beat out alot and can be very safe with proper pressure strings, 4D has invul on the backflip, D afterwards hits high) make Zappa able to still defeat a lot, if not completely shut down the opponent. * Pressure C: Very good corner pressure and amazing blockstrings, but pushback can eventually end the pressure if not done properly. * Mixup B: With two unblockables and 5HS now a safe move because of 5D's poke, he can get through the defense with little effort. * Okizeme B: 2D is only vulnerable to a DP, and even then they can be baite for a free resummon. * Against ground D: Zappa's poor air moves still apply, with j.HS still being his only real noteworthy move. * Against air B: 6P and 8D work great to beat out most stuff. * Breaking out of pressure B: Dog can be controlled during blockstun, making any dog attack applicable during pressure. * Defense C: Zappa loses his summon move to control the dog, but if the pressure forces him away from the dog, it can take a long time for him to get close enough to do anything useful. To add to this, the player has to focus on defending and positioning the dog. * In general situations B: Dog assists greatly to defeat most attempts at counterattacks, and can apply great pressure and combos, allowing zappa to get Raou very quickly. Sword: * Average damage C: Sword combos aren't too long but deal a good chunk of damage. * Max damage B: Can deal up to half a bar with 50% tension on average defense characters, but can only get a little bit more for 100%. * Pokes B: 5HS is a very quick meaty that hits twice and pushes the enemy away on block, 6P and 5K are still here. any of the slash moves are amazingly high priority. J.HS has an FRC and high priority. * Pressure C: Blockstrings aren't too long but can crank gaurd bar rather easily. * Mixup C: 6HS and 5D are the only ground overhead options. 6HS hit's high, then low, and can be timed to hit later than the opponent expects, but once it's used once or twice almost anyone will catch on, rendering it almost useless. Sword slide allows for odd mixup options by doing a low or overhead as it comes back, but Zappa's vulnerable during this. * Okizeme D: Very little oki tactics, 5D being an ok grab invul option. Bating DP's with the sword 623HS to clash and reinput on the clash can sometimes give options, but that's about it. * Against ground C: j.HS can still crossup, but is now versatile all around. Hit confirm into sword spin combos work well. * Against air B: Some of the best anti-airs in the game, 623HS and 2HS can defeat nearly any air move in the game, including Slayer j.HS. * Breaking out of pressure A: 13 frame invulnerability on his 623HS with an FRC gives combo options. * Defense C: With 623HS being his only way to defeat attacks that are close in, and his only reliable anti-grab option aside from backdash, he becomes rather weak to tick throw attempts and really great pressure strings. * In general situations C: Good damage, decent combos, but not very good pressure options and can get locked down rather easily. Good for rushdowns, but is still considered one of zappa's worst summons by many. Ghost: * Average damage E: The ghosts deal very little damage aside from having the most damaging normal in the game, 6HS. * Max damage D: Spending 100% tension nets barely any more damage than a single 6HS would. * Pokes B: f.S is very fast and has long range, 6P and 5K are still here. * Pressure B: Amazing lockdown with the ghost tosses and hauntings allow zappa to pressure the opponent for an absurdly long time. * Mixup C: 6HS is rather slow but is a good overhead with a good deal of damage. 5D is his only other overhead option. * Okizeme C: Ghost tosses can force the opponent to block, and 6HS has some long range and looks just like 5HS (which hits mid). j.HS crossover works well too. * Against ground C: j.HS, K Ghost toss, P ghost toss and using ghost toss to linger outside the opponents range make him annoying in the air, but not really much of a threat. * Against air C: 6P and a well timed HS ghost toss are his only real anti-air options. * Breaking out of pressure D: Ghosts are far too slow to do anything against pressure, and so he has to wait for an opportunity to do 5K or 6P. * Defense C: Can use the ghosts defensively (P toss FRC then block) to attempt to get out of pressure, but aside from that, he can only defend and wait for an opening. * In general situations B: The ghosts control a ton of space and make attacking difficult for the opponent. With some decent options against most characters, it makes them a force to be reckoned with despite the very low damage output. Raou: * Average damage S: General combos without tension can deal half a bar of damage easily. * Max damage S+: Can do a single combo to kill most characters in the game. * Pokes B: High priority and very fast pokes to stuff most attacks, Edguy can beat anything flat out. Always lead into a combo every time. * Pressure C: Good pressure with Darkness anthem, and can crank gaurd bar quickly, but suffers a lot of pushback. * Mixup C: Only overhead options are 5D and unsummon, both of which are very easy to see. * Okizeme B: Darkness anthem beats any wakeup move and forces the opponent to block. * Against ground B: j.HS and j.S are extremely high priority and always lead into a combo. * Against air A: Edguy is an amazing move in general, but completely obliterates air attacks. * Breaking out of pressure A: Edguy's first 7 frames are full invulnerability, and has an extremely high priority; nearly half the screen is his hitbox. * Defense C: Edguy being his only defensive option, he suffers greatly if he whiffs or if it's blocked, with almost 50 frames of vulnerability. * In general situations B: High priority, insane damage, great pressure and high chip damage allow him to either break the gaurd bar or kill them. * Overall rank C+: * Good matchups: Jam * Bad matchups: Axl, Dizzy, Slayer

[Purrin]

Tiers are less apparent in AC mostly due to everyone having ridiculous damage and loops. Pretty much any character/player can get a win here or there due to this unlike the previous GG version. Bridget/Ruu is an exception to this, and it appears he's the scapegoat for everyones argument on the matter. But from my limited knowledge, I haven't heard of him winning anything other than his strong showing in the 23v23 recently.

[Hellmonkey]

Ruu, Koichi, Doraie-su, Raimuki, Mugen, BLEED.. the list goes on.

[Teyah]

NO THAT IS NOT WHAT I AM SAYING. How can your reading comprehension be this poor.

My point is that they aren't fundamentally better.

Really? Yet when I addressed this earlier: "It also cannot be true, due to differing move properties inherent to each character (ie. tiers); ", you did not dispute that at all. But now it is your main argument. Okay.

Their potentials (which the tier list should reflect) are the same, it's in the hands of the player.

If this were true, the tier list (which ranks at top level of play) would show every character at the same rank, but it does not.

The reason Ruu does so well is not because Bridget is fundamentally equivalent to a character like Eddie. It's because he 'works harder' to compensate for his character's weaknesses in his style of play - something that's certainly not limited to Bridget, or any other character for that matter. It sounds like you are mistaking this for some sort of uncharacteristically high learning curve.

No two characters in this game are fundamentally equivalent, 'due to differing move properties inherent to each character (ie. tiers)'. Chipp does not have the same potential (safe/effective risk-reward tools) as Testament, nor Johnny as Eddie, nor any other low-tier vs high-tier. I don't think I even need to argue this point.

You're defining average level of play by people knowing "practical techniques and combos"? That's a bit vague, don't you think?

The purpose of that statement was to rule out the impractical (but possible) techniques that are used in high levels of competition. Eg. Techniques such as 100% damage combos from stored Sidewinder mixup for Sol are not factored into the creation of tier lists (Sol is not ranked SS for Max Damage), because they're not realistically doable or useful in competitive match play.

Are you guys trying to argue that tiers exist? or that tiers don't matter? cuz they both can be true but don't exactly mean the same thing.

Hellmonkey has said "every character is as good as any other character at top level play", which can only be taken to mean that tiers don't exist or aren't relevant at the top-level. Despite the slew of evidence pointing against this, he's only favoured a few recent tourney results in coming to this conclusion.

@ Oiboi - is that a translation from that website, or is that your own interpretation of those grades?

[Oiboi]

@ Oiboi - is that a translation from that website, or is that your own interpretation of those grades?

Sorry, I should have noted that they're my interpretations. I figured that it'd be unlikely for zappa to get a translation any time soon lol. I wouldn't imagine that they're much different than what the Japanese would say though, considering I more or less agree with the grading for him.

[Rome]

Like I said in the post that was deleted for some reason, many top Japanese players that main low tier characters and are considered best or pretty good with their character switched to a higher tier character. Even they realize that they do. I think its pretty indisputable.

[Hellmonkey]

Like who? Isa picked up Ky in Slash, so that's nothing new. However H.H. who also played Ky in Slash went back to Dizzy for AC without picking anyone else up. I can't think of many people who switched and stuck with it in AC.

[Purrin]

Ruu, Koichi, Doraie-su, Raimuki, Mugen, BLEED.. the list goes on.

Talking about Bridget and high dmg, not players who use low tier characters. I mentioned Ruu because he plays Bridget and does well with her even tho Buri doesn't have ridiculous dmg/loops.

[raekw0n187]

Like who? Isa picked up Ky in Slash, so that's nothing new. However H.H. who also played Ky in Slash went back to Dizzy for AC without picking anyone else up. I can't think of many people who switched and stuck with it in AC.

H.H still plays a lot of Ky. Everytime I saw him at Vegas he played Ky at least 5 times.

[Hellmonkey]

Why don't we get any videos of it

[Hellmonkey]

Talking about Bridget and high dmg, not players who use low tier characters. I mentioned Ruu because he plays Bridget and does well with her even tho Buri doesn't have ridiculous dmg/loops.

Mugen rapes as well with Bridget. Neither player makes the character's damage look very low..

[Purrin]

Mugen rapes as well with Bridget. Neither player makes the character's damage look very low..

Well with that outlook, lets just say all characters are high dmg/loop happy in AC.

[Teyah]

Like who? Isa picked up Ky in Slash, so that's nothing new. However H.H. who also played Ky in Slash went back to Dizzy for AC without picking anyone else up. I can't think of many people who switched and stuck with it in AC.

The deleted post that mentioned these players included (iirc):

Isa switching from Sol to Eddie

Nemo switching from Faust to Testament

MDR switching from Chipp to Eddie

Arisaka switching from Robo to Slayer

Kaqn switching from Order-Sol to Millia (but played OR in SBO)

As well as another Testament and Eddie that I can't recall.

[reaVer]

kaqn switched back to OS completely.

[Silmerion]

Not that it matters a whole great deal, but the list on ShoryukenWiki needs to be updated and I'm too lazy to make an account. Someone do that.

[frtpunchsamurai]

Of course they exist, but there is no good way to define them, and at the top level of play they are so close it doesn't matter.

Indeed, there is no accurate way telling if tiers exist but...

Lets say we clone another Ogawa to make them fight. Ogawa A picks Eddie, while Ogawa B picks potemkin(6.5-3.5). And lets assume that Ogawa B maind potemkin for 6 years . So guys, what do you think will happen to Ogawa B if they fight?

[AtTheGates]

susumu also switched from chipp to eddie. and i play him as a side char now. a trend, i guess.

[reaVer]

6.5-3.5? I don't think the matchup is THAT bad:P It might've been 6.5-3.5 in #R, but in AC it doesn't seem to be the case.

[Rome]

Samurai, thats a bad example. Thats just naturally a bad match up. Both I-No & Chipp are considered a D tier now, yet they still go even with Venom who is 2 tiers higher than them. And while both are at a disadvantage against Potemkin, Venom goes even with Potemkin, who is 1 tier higher than him. Baiken is 2 tiers higher than Sol, yet Sol is one of her worst match ups. Same with Dizzy and Potemkin, Bridget and Potemkin, etc.

[Champion]

6.5-3.5? I don't think the matchup is THAT bad:P It might've been 6.5-3.5 in #R, but in AC it doesn't seem to be the case.

It really seems that way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQnwsSi645U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBmdw_U9FbI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78ojZuHZ_HI

[Free]

Indeed, there is no accurate way telling if tiers exist but...

Lets say we clone another Ogawa to make them fight. Ogawa A picks Eddie, while Ogawa B picks potemkin(6.5-3.5). And lets assume that Ogawa B maind potemkin for 6 years . So guys, what do you think will happen to Ogawa B if they fight?

Ogawa A will win...am i right, i hope im right. i do believe tiers exist

[frtpunchsamurai]

Samurai, thats a bad example. Thats just naturally a bad match up. Both I-No & Chipp are considered a D tier now, yet they still go even with Venom who is 2 tiers higher than them. And while both are at a disadvantage against Potemkin, Venom goes even with Potemkin, who is 1 tier higher than him. Baiken is 2 tiers higher than Sol, yet Sol is one of her worst match ups. Same with Dizzy and Potemkin, Bridget and Potemkin, etc.

But have you seen N-O vs Koichi vids? Koichi has always been crushing his venom (Df2,G323v23) Note that ko1 himself said that the match up against Venom is pretty eassy(7:3) He maybe exaggerating but he's probably saying how easy it was for him.

Like Teyah said..

The reason Ruu does so well is not because Bridget is fundamentally equivalent to a character like Eddie. It's because he 'works harder' to compensate for his character's weaknesses in his style of play

Its natural for good players to compensate on their characters weakness. So thats why N-O concentrated on Venom's main weakness(last place in defensive options and defense modifier) And the result, is a Venom that utilizes all the ball formation(+++defense)

[Rome]

Venom Match-Ups according to N-Otoko: 6-4: Johnny 5.75-4.25 - Axl, Anji 5.5-4.5: Robo, Ky, ABA, Hoss, Bridget, Dizzy, Sol 5-5: Pot, Chipp, May 4.75-5.25: Zappa, Jam, Ino 4.5-5.5: Faust 4.25-5.75: Testament, Baiken, Slayer 4-6: Millia, Eddie The I-No vs. Venom match up only further proves my point. As you can see though, Venom is one of the characters were all 3 of the top characters are at an advantage against him. :sad:

[Ryu]

Are people really arguing that tiers' dont exist? That's impossible. Tier exist in every game. If it didnt in this game every matchup would be 5:5. That scenario is the perfect game that every developer is trying to develop. Its impossible to reach or make. The only way to have a completely even match is to have a mirror match - because the characters are exactly the same. As for low tier characters winning over higher ones - players who use low tier characters have to play at a higher level in order to win. Tier represent how easy it is to win with a character. If someone thinks its just as easy to win with Eddie as it is I-no then they're a retard.

[Rome]

Thats not the argument Ryu. The argument is whether or not tiers matter enough in high level play to be considered. I say they are. To say they don't is really optimistic IMO. However, I say GG is a game where tiers have to be considered, but not to the point where you can blame a match loss because of it. Like Ogawa vs. Kaqn, you can blame them for a round loss, but in very rare occasions. A great example of this are the 3rd Strike players Hayao (Hugo) and Kuroda (Q). They are are just on another level than ANY other player, but that doesn't mean tiers don't matter in 3rd Strike. They in general could just play on higher level than most, which makes the character APPEAR higher than they are on the tier list, but they really aren't. I think Teyah didn't put enough emphasis on the word "appear" in his earlier post. A good example of this is Hayao vs. KO (Yun). Hugo only has to command grab Yun 4 times to kill him. Hayao knew the perfect times to grab KO, and KO couldn't do anything about that. A Yun against a Hugo that knows when Yun will leave himself open is an impossible match for Yun. But to be able to do something like that, you have to be a genius. A genius will make any character look good. Sorry that I had to use 3rd Strike to prove my point, but its a perfect example.