BB:CS Match-Up Chart

[Skye]

I heard there are characters with great pressure but shitty mixup, and shitty pressure with great mixup

Please don't tell me you're referencing other fighting games and characters therein.

Those games are little to nothing like BB.

GG compares on a limb.

skye is being skye so he gets a skye point which is pretty moot when it comes to points.

[Dacidbro]

Lmao scott. Ragna is one of my best matchups. I didn't say "holy shit his mix up unstoppable", I said it was very good. No reason to make this personal, since that has nothing to do with the matchup.

As for carl speak, I agree that Carl's pressure is very different from Bang's and Litchi's. Bang and Litchi have a hundred ways to start it that Carl doesn't, that's his biggest problem. But once it gets going it can be very hard to understand where to get out, and I agree that being a Carl main would help there.

[-Ladon-]

Please don't tell me you're referencing other fighting games and characters therein.

Those games are little to nothing like BB.

GG compares on a limb.

Nope, there are characters within BB with those qualities, and characters like that in most games.

[Spirit Juice]

Lmao scott. Ragna is one of my best matchups. I didn't say "holy shit his mix up unstoppable", I said it was very good. No reason to make this personal, since that has nothing to do with the matchup.

It was just an observation. :P It happens a lot in America. Player loses to a player, and they attribute their loss to the character, rather than themselves or they player they lost to. Or they might lose to something they may not understand fully, and overinflate its effectiveness.

Your defense isn't the best, which would make it seem like Ragna's mix up (which I explained earlier) stronger than it actually is. I know you're not saying it's unstoppable, but I think you're overstating the effectiveness of it.

[Alex073088]

I dont know where to express this. But i think the guard libra system is stupid. after your guard is broken you still only have one libra. That means ragna can reset you from a broke guard combo into yet another broke guard string. Does anyone see any worry in this espically for those with characters that have only 4 libras. ragna pressure isnt half bad at all while ur pressed up against the wall.

[SethDahlios]

Umm you do know you can spend gauge to prevent them from attacking and taking advantage of the guard break, and if you're getting broken that fast, you're in far more trouble than just worrying about your guard gauge? Right? RIGHT?

[PhantomX]

Eh, it's rare that a round doesn't end before they can break all your primers if you're doing it right, especially since quite a few of the primer breaking moves are unsafe.

[Alex073088]

Umm you do know you can spend gauge to prevent them from attacking and taking advantage of the guard break, and if you're getting broken that fast, you're in far more trouble than just worrying about your guard gauge? Right? RIGHT?

SIGH wrong, you may not have the meter to spend to get out each time. Also rachel's counter assult is medicore, you have little time to do anything after you have done so. Rachel among others also has 4 guard libras. and she has a very tough time getting out the corner. and doesnt blood kain 6d spamming on character int he corner also take off loads of guard primers?

[Arifureta]

I'm pretty sure the guard points reset to full after it gets broken so it's not really a problem.

Unless you burst twice in the round and only have one left. :V

If you're really that close to being broken and your barrier's spent, jump. It's a lot harder to combo off an air guard break.

[Alex073088]

I'm pretty sure the guard points reset to full after it gets broken so it's not really a problem.

Unless you burst twice in the round and only have one left. :V

If you're really that close to being broken and you're barriers spent, jump. It's a lot harder to combo off an air guard break.

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm10704929 though it isnt ragna, and both players werent that good at all. i noticed that rachel did use her burst. after her guard was broken the libra didnt go back to two, it stayed at flashy red.

Also the hazama didnt reset her into more chances to take away libras like ragna's bnb normally does. (athough so do hazama's, well damn this player was really bad)

Whoa super edit: that rachel player came back and did his thing match two!

Double edit: 0.o:vbang: nvm both players werent consistently playing at high a level

[Arifureta]

She burst like twice in that match. :V

Also, you're doing something wrong if Hazama is eating your primers.

[Alex073088]

She burst like twice in that match. :V

Also, you're doing something wrong if Hazama is eating your primers.

well what about ragna?, a rachel(he plays cs arcades) player in our forum mentioned that ragna takes away guard primers and breaks his guard often. i know what his pressure against the wall was like in ct for rachel. and the only really safe way out against a very high level player was counter assult, which you could do it and they jump cancel something like 6d lol and lose your meter xD. But thats player error has nuthing to do with the characters themselves.

How does it look when ragna is jailing rachel in the corner? i know a few strings has holes, but there are some ways to trick around those holes and space yourself to react to a jump out, by using 5b, j.d. , j.c ,6a, air throw(for ragna)

[Arifureta]

Oh no, yeah, Ragna eats primers like some sort of primer monster. Or something.

Most of his primer-removing moves have a bit of recovery time on block though so, I dunno, poke and run?

[ShinKaigan]

well what about ragna?, a rachel(he plays cs arcades) player in our forum mentioned that ragna takes away guard primers and breaks his guard often. i know what his pressure against the wall was like in ct for rachel. and the only really safe way out against a very high level player was counter assult, which you could do it and they jump cancel something like 6d lol and lose your meter xD. But thats player error has nuthing to do with the characters themselves.

How does it look when ragna is jailing rachel in the corner? i know a few strings has holes, but there are some ways to trick around those holes and space yourself to react to a jump out, by using 5b, j.d. , j.c ,6a, air throw(for ragna)

The more common moves for Ragna that remove guard primers all either have a long start up or are very unsafe. Dead Spike (I think that's what its called) leaves him advantaged on block but it has a long start up, you could probably punish or at the very least jump out of it. Hell's Fang follow up will also take away a primer but leave him incredibly open and 2D is much of the same, not to mention on block it ends any kind of pressure.

Of course, all of these points are made null if he has meter. He can RC and rampage on you but smart use of barrier/IB and poking out at the holes in his pressure should be enough to get Rachel out of trouble. There is of course a well timed Cat Chair too.

[Dacidbro]

Scott; I base almost nothing on my own experience, when speaking about characters. I use Japan as my measuring tape.

Alex, you only stay at 1 primer if you burst twice, because that is your new max. Primer break is not broken, nor does it even happen often. With IB there is always a way out of 4 primer breaks, and 2 or 3 are free with barrier.

[SimpleKiss]

Please don't tell me you're referencing other fighting games and characters therein.

Those games are little to nothing like BB.

GG compares on a limb.

You said that mixups helped maintain pressure. that's not a Blazblue specific decleration. BB isn't the only game with mixups. Mixups I guess can be considered a form of pressure, but a character like venom is all about putting you in blockstun and then killing you when you try to escape.

Litchi works alot like this too, most of her damage comes from people trying to get out of the corner, not from her mediocre mixup game (which is different than her corner pressure and oki game.)

[-Ladon-]

Scott; I base almost nothing on my own experience, when speaking about characters. I use Japan as my measuring tape.

In Japan it's pretty obvious ragna's mixup isn't taking wins either, it's just what he can do when he actually does land a hit, and the Oki following.

[Alex073088]

K thanks everyone, im feeling better about guard libra system now. You get get away from some of the things ragna can do with rachel, but punishing is incredibly difficult because of her lack of speed and range. I think i need to see kaqn(ragna) versus rachel to see how the match may look.

[smooshman]

I think i need to see kaqn(ragna) versus rachel to see how the match may look.

no, you don't... it's scary.

[Skye]

You said that mixups helped maintain pressure. that's not a Blazblue specific decleration. BB isn't the only game with mixups. Mixups I guess can be considered a form of pressure, but a character like venom is all about putting you in blockstun and then killing you when you try to escape.

Litchi works alot like this too, most of her damage comes from people trying to get out of the corner, not from her mediocre mixup game (which is different than her corner pressure and oki game.)

But she uses mixups to keep the pressure strong, it's not always with the sole purpose of pressure, but what does it create when it's blocked?

It's a simple cause and effect.

My comment was to his about characters having bad mixups but good pressure and vise versa, not about mixups in general.

Generally, in BB, (notwithstanding zoning) the characters with shoddy misups are the ones with not so good pressure, outside of a few variables like curse mode and RCs.

To the end of that statement, Ragna has to take risks for his mixups, which does good for pressure when blocked.

Does that mean his mixups are bad? Not entirely, but his pressure is very lack luster, and he does leave a ton of holes trying to maintain it.

[-Ladon-]

But she uses mixups to keep the pressure strong, it's not always with the sole purpose of pressure, but what does it create when it's blocked?

It's a simple cause and effect.

My comment was to his about characters having bad mixups but good pressure and vise versa, not about mixups in general.

Generally, in BB, (notwithstanding zoning) the characters with shoddy misups are the ones with not so good pressure, outside of a few variables like curse mode and RCs.

To the end of that statement, Ragna has to take risks for his mixups, which does good for pressure when blocked.

Does that mean his mixups are bad? Not entirely, but his pressure is very lack luster, and he does leave a ton of holes trying to maintain it.

the fact remains that his mixup isn't solid enough to force into any kind of damage, sure, ragna with high meter gain can keep you in blockstun for a long time, but that means dick in CS where you don't really have to look for a hole aside from primer breaks, all of which require ragna to take a large risk(deadspike) or use 50% heat to make it safe(HF/GH)

ragna's pressure is pretty solid, considering he can now do what noel did in CT with ending a blockstring in 2c and walking away safe, not to mention throwing the 2c out there if someone's mashing can land a fatal. but his mixup is(what I personally think) nowhere near what it should be for someone who HAS to be in your face at all times, and can lose 50% of his health against the majority of the cast for a single risk(a little bit of an exaggeration, but 5k is a very attainable number in CS)

personally, losing 50% hp for forcing a mixup is a really fucked up game mechanic, but hey, I play sf4 still

[smooshman]

mixup isn't just high low.... if that were so Jin would have F tier level mixup, mixup is high/low PLUS crossup, tick throw, anything to get the opponent not guarding. High/low is the basic form, but things like (for jin) IAD j236D is a good mixup to confuse your opponent, Ragna though.... he got some tick throw setups (dash cancel is like tick throws for dummies:kitty: [still not that effective and very predictable]) he can crossup with GH but..... why bother? recovery's pretty bad.... I just checked his frame data (thanks shtkn) and he has a lot for unsafe (in varying degrees) DS is the only safe one (and 2C but barely), but his pressure is practically mind games, it looks very intimidating, even if you can get out, you hesitate to think about the risk, and the chance is gone (of course if they did HF.... they better pray you mess up).

[-Ladon-]

he didn't "get" anything new lol, nothing has changed other than the two things I mentioned and getting heat faster for more RCs is a very theory way of looking at mixup considering he has to get his hits in first.

and i'm well aware of the definiton of mixup, don't worry, I wouldn't be arguing the fact if it wasn't true, but throws are universally gimmick in BB and many other mixup options are minor factors at best for ragna

[Spirit Juice]

lol @ throws for mix up in BB.

Like I said before, Ragna's mix up is about forcing mistakes. Any kind of high/low game he has for mix up is decent or mediocre at best. He's a not a character that is going to force you to make a decision on how to block. The best mix up is the mix up that you cannot react to (think Millia high/low mix up in GG, Magneto mix up in MvC2, near instant overheads in HnK, etc.), and the closest thing Ragna has to that would be 3C oki after a BE combo.

[Dacidbro]

I think we just have different perspectives of what it means, that's all. Nothing you have said is wrong, Scott, for sure. I feel like Ragna's mix up is unique because a very large aspect is that his pressure is very solid; for this reason, you can't get away with a lot of the things you can in other character's mix up, and it benefits his mix up as a result. His meter gain is also a great supplement.