huey253 Posted July 26, 2010 Posted July 26, 2010 which is exactly why hazama doesn't have to be anywhere near the ground if he wants... grabbing mu (even if it is purple) could easily be used to invunl through the laser, so they get in (which is easy for both characters) it shouldn't be that big of a deal
Mightfo Posted July 26, 2010 Posted July 26, 2010 how is mu going to knockdown those two? and why can't we factor in the fact that they just block on their wakeup, i mean, mu doesn't even have that great of mixup? She has decent mixup and crossups. Not bang 5c 6b shenanigans but not bad at all. She can gatling J2C after JC and it can crossup. The simple fact that they have to block for a good period means she gets to throw out whatever she wants without being scared of IBing. Hell, if they counter assault early in the laserbounce, she's at least back to neutral. which is exactly why hazama doesn't have to be anywhere near the ground if he wants... grabbing mu (even if it is purple) could easily be used to invunl through the laser, so they get in (which is easy for both characters) it shouldn't be that big of a deal ...you're not going to land a grab when there's a laser hitting you during it. especially if she's not actually right next to you when you block the laser on wakeup, or she's off the ground doing 6B. also, mu has good anti airs. it won't be impossible or anything for her to get hazama or tao blocking on the ground and go into a knockdown combo. Hell, if they tech far away it is still possible for the 236d from her horizontal stein setups to keep them there until she gets over there, at least, so they have to eat some pressure. She could charge her 41236C to break 3 guard primers(doesn't take too long), timed at the end of the lockdown if she wants to avoid the lasers wasting guardcrush, so that's something she can do instead of mixup. Don't get me wrong, it may very well be 6-4 or something, but it isn't like hazama/tao will just be slipping out of her hands forever. Her jc is a decent air to air, too.
-Ladon- Posted July 26, 2010 Posted July 26, 2010 ... No. It's giving Hakumen a FREE counter, for YOUR 50 meter. Try to keep up, please. I heard Mu can bounce lasers without 50% meter
huey253 Posted July 26, 2010 Posted July 26, 2010 you do realize command laser oki is easily broken by late techs or rolls right?
-Ladon- Posted July 26, 2010 Posted July 26, 2010 you do realize command laser oki is easily broken by late techs or rolls right? that could be said about a lot of oki, considering how many characters can't get true oki
whitevoid Posted July 26, 2010 Posted July 26, 2010 Even if he techs with the right stein set-up they'll still be shooting when he recovers forcing him to block. There is an intial laser shot, and then the bounces so you don't need to do early. You could even do it in response to a tech. Don't get me wrong, it may very well be 6-4 or something, but it isn't like hazama/tao will just be slipping out of her hands forever. Her jc is a decent air to air, too. I was thinking more 5.5/4.5 tbh. I don't think she's as good as Hakumen in the match-up, and it'd be hard for me to believe that she is better than him in the match-up.
Dacidbro Posted July 26, 2010 Posted July 26, 2010 Oh, you meant just 236D Laserbounce oki? That's even free-er for Hakumen. There is nothing more telegraphed than a laser slowly going from stein to stein. I was playing my friend's Mu-12 and I countered it for free many times. It doesn't work. To give you an idea of how non-trappy the laser oki is, I was playing Tager, my friend starts 236D, I roll forward off the ground IB the laser and 360A him to reversal his immediate jab afterwards. After that, he was too scared of my wakeup options to use his own, because he knew on IB all the lasers are like 0 blockstun.
-Ladon- Posted July 26, 2010 Posted July 26, 2010 Oh, you meant just 236D Laserbounce oki? That's even free-er for Hakumen. There is nothing more telegraphed than a laser slowly going from stein to stein. I was playing my friend's Mu-12 and I countered it for free many times. It doesn't work. To give you an idea of how non-trappy the laser oki is, I was playing Tager, my friend starts 236D, I roll forward off the ground IB the laser and 360A him to reversal his immediate jab afterwards. After that, he was too scared of my wakeup options to use his own, because he knew on IB all the lasers are like 0 blockstun. just because you countered an oki option doesn't mean it can't be played for oki period lol, the point of oki is to constantly change it, just because your friend made it telegraphed doesn't mean it isn't a good option. that's like saying "my friend was spamming overheads when I woke up everytime so I inferno dividered him, overheading on wakeup is a terrible option."
whitevoid Posted July 26, 2010 Posted July 26, 2010 that's when you bait the throw. of course, 0 block stun is pretty bad all the same. and why in god's name would you run up and try to jab Tager anyways? I mean what exactly are you expecting to happen?
Heroic_Legacy Posted July 26, 2010 Posted July 26, 2010 Well what exactly is Mu going to do against Tager? Set up MORE stein? Pfft. You've gotta get in eventually. But staying at 5C range 2C if he jumps is optimal. And Mu can just DP the spark bolt away. And the Lambda Mu matchup is just all straight up momentum. It isn't hard for Mu to get in since all you have to do is just set one stein, fire it, and start rushing. And if Lambda likes backdashing, set a 6D and explode it. Free primer broken, and you are in her face. Once you bait her gravity well you can pretty much go to town on her. Except, her normals are just about the same as yours...
Dacidbro Posted July 27, 2010 Posted July 27, 2010 just because you countered an oki option doesn't mean it can't be played for oki period lol, the point of oki is to constantly change it, just because your friend made it telegraphed doesn't mean it isn't a good option. that's like saying "my friend was spamming overheads when I woke up everytime so I inferno dividered him, overheading on wakeup is a terrible option." Do you think I'm just like.. completely inept at this fucking game? I know what oki is, I understand how to DO IT and what it encompasses. If I didn't get that simple as all anything concept I wouldn't beat anyone, much less top American players. I was using one particular example of just how unbelievably weak her lasers are to show people that they are unreliable and not as powerful as people think.
-Ladon- Posted July 27, 2010 Posted July 27, 2010 Do you think I'm just like.. completely inept at this fucking game? I know what oki is, I understand how to DO IT and what it encompasses. If I didn't get that simple as all anything concept I wouldn't beat anyone, much less top American players. I was using one particular example of just how unbelievably weak her lasers are to show people that they are unreliable and not as powerful as people think. By the way you post misinformation it could be very misleading, don't get hurt champ, I'm just pointing out the flaws in your arguement and just for the record "It doesn't work" is far from trying to point out a scenario in which it isn't SAFE to use, but still viable.
Dacidbro Posted July 27, 2010 Posted July 27, 2010 I would go so far as to say it doesn't work on Hakumen, which is all I ever said in the first place. Then I used an example of one of the most "stuck in block forever" characters being able to successfully mash out of the oki. All I'm saying with Haku is that you can literally always counter the laser on reaction and you shouldn't get anything from it. Unless you don't want to assume high level play, in which case laser haku all you want.
Keo-bas Posted July 27, 2010 Posted July 27, 2010 It seems making match up notes is not as simple as I thought. Personally I think MU can actually controll the match momentum with being able to play tactical with hazama. Hazama has to wratch out for traps and Mu while Mu only has to keep an eye on Hazama and react.
whitevoid Posted July 27, 2010 Posted July 27, 2010 Well what exactly is Mu going to do against Tager? Set up MORE stein? Pfft. You've gotta get in eventually. But staying at 5C range 2C if he jumps is optimal. That's like saying Haku can't just jC/4C the entire match against Tager. Or Hazama can't spam Ouroboros. Sure, that's not literally going to be the whole match-up against him (or it'd be like 7-3 or worse). But the fact is most of the time HE has to get in, and you can just sit back and be reactive. So yeah, why not set-up more stein? Or sit back and spam Ouroboros or jC? It's not like he's Ragna or Bang and he's going to rush you down or anything. The risk/reward factor just isn't there (unless you're Bang or Ragna). And Mu can just DP the spark bolt away. She can what now!? And the Lambda Mu matchup is just all straight up momentum. It isn't hard for Mu to get in since all you have to do is just set one stein, fire it, and start rushing. And if Lambda likes backdashing, set a 6D and explode it. Free primer broken, and you are in her face. Once you bait her gravity well you can pretty much go to town on her. Except, her normals are just about the same as yours... My basic thoughts are Swords deal damage, Lasers don't. So assuming that they both can play their game, random Swords hits give her an edge because they do more damage then random Laser hits. But that's an exceptionally simplified look at the match-up, but those were my thoughts on it.
STenSatsu Posted July 27, 2010 Posted July 27, 2010 Haku is very strong against stuff like laser oki/daisharin oki/four winds oki in general thanks to reversal counter.
mundus Posted July 27, 2010 Posted July 27, 2010 My experience with Mu so far. Imo Tager has slight advantage or its pretty even, i find fighting Lambda and Hazama (and the top 3) much more of a hassle than Mu with Tager. Hakumen destroys her, but i found her harder to catch with Ragna than Lambda cause of her dp and her lasers interrupting your combos, so in my experience she might have a slight advantage vs Ragna. Bang and Lambda are probably the hardest after Hakumen in my experience so far.
Antihippy Posted July 28, 2010 Posted July 28, 2010 My basic thoughts are Swords deal damage, Lasers don't. So assuming that they both can play their game, random Swords hits give her an edge because they do more damage then random Laser hits. But that's an exceptionally simplified look at the match-up, but those were my thoughts on it. Average damage for lambda seems slightly lower than Mu though. Mu seems to be able to get 3K on average and 5K easily with heat. Normal swords deal more damage than laser but they don't lead to big damage. Unless you get a counterhit.
Dacidbro Posted July 28, 2010 Posted July 28, 2010 My experience with Mu so far. Imo Tager has slight advantage or its pretty even, i find fighting Lambda and Hazama (and the top 3) much more of a hassle than Mu with Tager. Hakumen destroys her, but i found her harder to catch with Ragna than Lambda cause of her dp and her lasers interrupting your combos, so in my experience she might have a slight advantage vs Ragna. Bang and Lambda are probably the hardest after Hakumen in my experience so far. You can't say that you understand the Mu matchup well enough to call anything when its day 1 randoms. It's a waste of time and effort. Tager V Mu, though, I promise you, won't be even. Not a chance in hell it's not somehow Mu's advantage.
WildcatNKU24 Posted July 28, 2010 Posted July 28, 2010 So I've got about 6-8 hours playtime in CS now, and I can honestly say I was scared that my main (arakune) got RACHEL'd (lol sorry rachel users), but really I like the idea of the curse bar. Either way my reason for posting is to say that I'm dissappointed that V-13 still exists as LAMDA 11. I hate that matchup more than any other!
Catastrophy Posted July 28, 2010 Posted July 28, 2010 So I've got about 6-8 hours playtime in CS now, and I can honestly say I was scared that my main (arakune) got RACHEL'd (lol sorry rachel users), but really I like the idea of the curse bar. Either way my reason for posting is to say that I'm dissappointed that V-13 still exists as LAMDA 11. I hate that matchup more than any other! Get used to it being a lot more difficult to get that curse going. But once you do, start getting used to 100%ing folks. Unlike the other top characters, Arakune feels like crap until he's in fever mode then he can roll with the big dogs.
Lomyn Posted July 28, 2010 Posted July 28, 2010 Get used to it being a lot more difficult to get that curse going. But once you do, start getting used to 100%ing folks. Unlike the other top characters, Arakune feels like crap until he's in fever mode then he can roll with the big dogs. I've been working on him too, and it feels like he is like C- tier until the fever gauge activates and suddenly he's SSS. Good stuff with that meter if you can get it going. Been working with Lambda, and she's nowhere near as bad as Nu was IMO. She still has great zoning, but her mixup game is much worse than it used to be. I find myself using j.DD as my long range poke and hit confirming into the j.DD, 214D~C, dj.DD 214D combo a lot on hit, or j.DD 214D~C with no follow-up on block. Losing the backdash act pulsar from 5DD on the ground really, really sucks.
Manta Posted July 29, 2010 Posted July 29, 2010 You can't say that you understand the Mu matchup well enough to call anything when its day 1 randoms. It's a waste of time and effort. Tager V Mu, though, I promise you, won't be even. Not a chance in hell it's not somehow Mu's advantage. General agreement here, Tager ALWAYS seems like he has the upper hand when you go against him with a character that is new (to you or the game), even if the tager player isn't that good. It's just his Grappler style has always been good at crushing people who aren't aware of his traps but getting owned by those who do.
DC Posted July 30, 2010 Posted July 30, 2010 I wonder, with all the discussion why does this never seem to get updated? (Same thing with the CT thread)
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