BB:CS Match-Up Chart

[smooshman]

Carl might honestly be equal with Ragna at this point

honestly, no, not a chance in hell, between the two, I'll fight a character I can actually attack over consistently losing every single poke battle by a massive amount. Why do people think Carl's as powerful as Ragna?

[Edge Reaper]

Carl is not worse than Tager because you've never lost to a Carl player on netplay. Jesus shitting Christ.

Didn't I pretty much say just that in my post? That it was pointless garbage and not worth the time?

I'm just giving my .000001 of a cent to see if it can somehow be useful. If its simply used to reinforce the statement that netplayers are fucking morons, then hey, I did something.

[A.X.I.S.]

honestly, no, not a chance in hell, between the two, I'll fight a character I can actually attack over consistently losing every single poke battle by a massive amount. Why do people think Carl's as powerful as Ragna?

I don't see it either, carl's defense is just too poor to be as powerful as ragna, but his mix up and reset potential is insane, not to mention his avg damage is better than it was in CT.

Didn't I pretty much say just that in my post? That it was pointless garbage and not worth the time?

I'm just giving my .000001 of a cent to see if it can somehow be useful. If its simply used to reinforce the statement that netplayers are fucking morons, then hey, I did something.

the problem is you posted something not worth anything, you could have posted a single letter and came out smarter than you are right now and also this thread isn't based off netplay experience.

and with that said ara vs tager is not even, I seriously don't see it.

[ZONG_one]

Haha Carl says: Stay Free, TAGARZZZ.

Arakune says: St y Fre , T GAR Z Z.

[FlyingVe]

Carl has much better footsies using is Doll to get in and trap people. Ranga on the other hand, has more trouble approaching and mixing-up, but his reward for succeeding is ludicrously high. Carl is probably the better overall character, but both seem about even to me.

This matchup chart is old. Tager V Arakune is definitely in Arakune's favor. It's no where near as bad as CT but Tager still can't reliably catch him. I'd put it at 6-4 maybe a bit worse.

[smooshman]

Carl has much better footsies using is Doll to get in and trap people. Ranga on the other hand, has more trouble approaching and mixing-up, but his reward for succeeding is ludicrously high. Carl is probably the better overall character, but both seem about even to me.

I don't know about that.... I've tried to zone Ragna....

shit gets wrecked don't do it again. EVER.

Ragna has can poke his way in very well against characters who don't have good projectiles (Jin, Rachel) or have shitty pokes. and once he's in he's not leaving.

also Axis and I agree on something?

[soujiro seta]

Carl has much better footsies using is Doll to get in and trap people. Ranga on the other hand, has more trouble approaching and mixing-up, but his reward for succeeding is ludicrously high. Carl is probably the better overall character, but both seem about even to me.

Ragna doesn't have trouble approaching. He has the best 5B in the game, and he can never get AA because of j.C. He can zone you with 5B 5C all day and there's close to nothing most characters can do about it. Only a few have an answer to that. His mixup is also safe because of his meter gain.

[ZhePrime]

lol

No. You haven't played a Makoto who can parry cancel loop.

I didn't bring up loops since it's a given that loops will be removed (especially things like taunt and parry loop), since they're not intentionally put in.

[SolheartStud]

I didn't bring up loops since it's a given that loops will be removed (especially things like taunt and parry loop), since they're not intentionally put in.

Any real proof of that? I mean...Noel has a Haida Loop and I'm pretty sure that's introduced in Challenge Mode, wouldn't you consider that to be intentionable? As far as I've seen also, none of these loops seem to be infinite, but I hey, I could be wrong.

[ZONG_one]

Haida loop isn't meterless 9k. (LOL NOEL COMBO VIDEO VS. HAKUMEN.)

I'm not knocking you or anything. I like loops in my games. I'm just saying.

Also Lambda TK Crescent loops, Carl 2D loops, etc. People have them. I like them. Just these chars gameplay don't revolve around only this (I guess it does a little more with Lambda,) where as with Tao/Makoto, if you can't do your loop, you lose.

Maybe Arcsys doesn't want their chars to be one trick ponies.

Maybe I'm too hungover to be posting.

[SolheartStud]

Haida loop isn't meterless 9k. (LOL NOEL COMBO VIDEO VS. HAKUMEN.)

I'm not knocking you or anything. I like loops in my games. I'm just saying.

Don't worry about it. Outside of Ragna, my knowledge of other characters isn't that great. In fact most of my knowledge comes from watching videos of other characters, which is why I said I could be wrong about the info I said. But I'm not offended, but thanks for your concern.

[ZONG_one]

It's good that you watch vids, lol. More people need to. And not just for their own character.

[FlyingVe]

Ragna doesn't have trouble approaching. He has the best 5B in the game, and he can never get AA because of j.C. He can zone you with 5B 5C all day and there's close to nothing most characters can do about it. Only a few have an answer to that. His mixup is also safe because of his meter gain.

You can AA the jC, it's not even hard. If you worried about the jC's range than move forward a bit before you throw your AA. His 5B is very, very good, but that really only useful after he gets in and it loses to every other faster poke in the game. Ragna is a mid-range character so he doesn't need to get as close as say, makoto, but unlike makoto he has almost no tools to get him into that range save dashing. Yes, Ragna's meter gain is OP as all get out, I won't argue that one.

[SolheartStud]

Fortunately I learn the best by watching things visually as opposed to just seeing combos and techniques written down. Although if I'm unsure of something, such as if a dash is needed in a combo and I don't quite see it in there, the written format helps me a lot.

[Spirit Juice]

Ragna doesn't have trouble approaching. He has the best 5B in the game, and he can never get AA because of j.C. He can zone you with 5B 5C all day and there's close to nothing most characters can do about it. Only a few have an answer to that. His mixup is also safe because of his meter gain.

This is not true. Ragna has to play patient against characters such as Lambda, Carl, and in some cases, Arakune. Lambda can easily keep Ragna out if she plays the match up correctly, and Ragna has to play patiently and look for openings. He can't just blindly run at her spamming 5B or jump at her with j.C. Carl works the same way since Nirvana can absorb hits and make approaching him difficult. With Arakune, Ragna will likely have to run into a cloud or two to get close to him.

A poorly placed j.C will get AA'd by any move with head attribute invulnerability.

[smooshman]

You can AA the jC, it's not even hard. If you worried about the jC's range than move forward a bit before you throw your AA. His 5B is very, very good, but that really only useful after he gets in and it loses to every other faster poke in the game. Ragna is a mid-range character so he doesn't need to get as close as say, makoto, but unlike makoto he has almost no tools to get him into that range save dashing. Yes, Ragna's meter gain is OP as all get out, I won't argue that one.

JC can be AA'd assuming you have an AA...... which a surprising amount of characters don't.

and you assume Ragna's the one getting in... but it's actually you keeping him out. and lol 5B losing to things, I've yet to beat 5B with anything, it's perfect for it's purpose, it has enough range to stuff faster pokes and is fast enough to stuff pokes with the same range.

[FlyingVe]

5B loses to anything that comes out faster or is already active. It's true that some characters don't have good AA's but they have other options. Arakune, lambda, and Hazama can just run away, and they can harass Ragna from a distance with projectiles stoping his approach. Tao moves so fast that Dash in jC isn't a great tactic against her, and Tagers 2C will usually trade very much in Tager's favor. The fact that Ragna has no good approach and only an average mixup is alot of the reason that he was never ranked equal to Bang and Litchi.

[soujiro seta]

You can AA the jC, it's not even hard. If you worried about the jC's range than move forward a bit before you throw your AA. His 5B is very, very good, but that really only useful after he gets in and it loses to every other faster poke in the game. Ragna is a mid-range character so he doesn't need to get as close as say, makoto, but unlike makoto he has almost no tools to get him into that range save dashing. Yes, Ragna's meter gain is OP as all get out, I won't argue that one.

If j.c is spaced properly I don't see how it can be AA. Unless he's facing like haku and he times 2C correctly. Even then haku might still lose, I don't know. Haku players, does 2C beat ragna's j.C? Apart from haku I don't see who else could AA a properly spaced j.C, which is what the ragna should have done to begin with. If you see rags IAD you wouldn't have enough time to move forward and AA, by then you'd already be hit b j.C.

5B losing o_O? I'll actually have to agree with smooshman on this. Tsubaki has one of the best 5B, but ragnas 5B beats her 5B clean. Very rarely will you trade with his, and I mean very rarely. His 5B comes out faster than other moves with the same range. The only way it would lose is if someone anticipated you would toss it out and did something earlier, but that's guessing.

I don't see how ragnas approach is risky. He has one of the safest ways to approach. Ofcourse there are characters with better (litchi, bang, etc) but I'm just saying.

This is not true. Ragna has to play patient against characters such as Lambda, Carl, and in some cases, Arakune. Lambda can easily keep Ragna out if she plays the match up correctly, and Ragna has to play patiently and look for openings. He can't just blindly run at her spamming 5B or jump at her with j.C. Carl works the same way since Nirvana can absorb hits and make approaching him difficult. With Arakune, Ragna will likely have to run into a cloud or two to get close to him.

A poorly placed j.C will get AA'd by any move with head attribute invulnerability.

Yeah I know he has to play patiently against those 2 but I was talking about overall. He can approach the other characters very easily, and because of his range it's very easy for him to zone them as well.

Yes, a poorly spaced j.C will lose, just like hakus who IAD and poorly space j.C, but properly spacing j.C, which the ragna should do.....I just don't see how it can get AA. 5B and properly spacing j.C make his approach against the cast very safe. He can approach the cast safely from the air and ground. I know there are a few exceptions but I'm talking overall.

Haida loop isn't meterless 9k. (LOL NOEL COMBO VIDEO VS. HAKUMEN.)

I'm not knocking you or anything. I like loops in my games. I'm just saying.

Also Lambda TK Crescent loops, Carl 2D loops, etc. People have them. I like them. Just these chars gameplay don't revolve around only this (I guess it does a little more with Lambda,) where as with Tao/Makoto, if you can't do your loop, you lose.

Maybe Arcsys doesn't want their chars to be one trick ponies.

Maybe I'm too hungover to be posting.

This is the same problem that I tried to express in my last post about the space/taunt loop. The whole 1 trick pony playstyle. Their entire gameplan revolves around it, and they deal too much damage. Noel's haida loop was reduced from CT cause it dealt way too much meterless damage. Tauntloop doesn't have to be removed persay but drastically reduce the damage/reps and make it more situational, cause right now she can get it off anything. Space loop on the other hand just needs to go. I don't see a way arc can work around it.

[mAc Chaos]

Nothing beats Ragna's j.C if spaced properly, at least by Haku, and given how much range he has I don't think anyone else is better off. I mean sure, if they do it dumb and get in close then you can hit him all day, but good Ragnas hit you with the very tip of the j.C, which places Ragna so far away that you could do Haku's 6A right through it in CT and Ragna would just land unharmed and CH you for the whiff. The only way to "beat" it is to just back off and give yourself some room, or just block it and wait out the pressure. You could Hotaru it, I suppose, but that beats everything so it doesn't really say anything about Ragna's j.C being worse for it. In CS you can also use Haku's new j.C to keep him out in the air, but you'd have to already have it coming out since Ragna is faster. If you wait until he's already doing it and try to react you won't get it out in time.

Haku's 2C won't beat out anything unless they're right on top of you or you throw it out way beforehand and they just run into it.

[Skye]

Ragna's jc loses to a bunch of stuff, just gotta not be stupid about it.

Jin's j.c is his saving grace vs Ragna in air to air combat. Atomic Collider can grab Ragna fresh out the sky with that godly hitbox.

Hakumen's jc beats it fresh, and air projectile beats it fresh, like party bug, Lambda's 6 or 2d, Hazama 6, 4 or jd.

Just don't stand still, spacing is dependent on where both of you are, with your own movements you can make jc whiff entirely, or close distance and anti air.

Hell, Arakune's 2b can make it whiff, or clash at worst.

Stop standing around, picking your nose and jc won't rape you.

On the topic of 5b, block it, Ragna's mix ups aren't that much of a pain in the ass, and 5c, although safer can still be IB'd and reversaled.

I've Yukikaze'd Ragna's 2c on it's first active frame after IBing his 5c.

[soujiro seta]

^^^thanks Mac

Ragna's jc loses to a bunch of stuff, just gotta not be stupid about it.

Jin's j.c is his saving grace vs Ragna in air to air combat. Atomic Collider can grab Ragna fresh out the sky with that godly hitbox.

Hakumen's jc beats it fresh, and air projectile beats it fresh, like party bug, Lambda's 6 or 2d, Hazama 6, 4 or jd.

Just don't stand still, spacing is dependent on where both of you are, with your own movements you can make jc whiff entirely, or close distance and anti air.

Hell, Arakune's 2b can make it whiff, or clash at worst.

Stop standing around, picking your nose and jc won't rape you.

On the topic of 5b, block it, Ragna's mix ups aren't that much of a pain in the ass, and 5c, although safer can still be IB'd and reversaled.

I've Yukikaze'd Ragna's 2c on it's first active frame after IBing his 5c.

Everything you said is guessing, and not done on reaction. You can 6A on reaction, but not the examples you listed.

The only way Jin's/haku's j.C can beat rags j.C is if they guess right, jump up first, do j.C, theirs comes out first and hits ragna while he's in the process of doing his. Jin's/haku's j.C does not beat out rags j.C on reaction. It's impossible.

You don't AC AA people on reaction, you do it as a guess. Also, j.c at max range will beat AC clean, which is where a good ragna will do it from to begin with.

Why would rags j.C at a party bug to begin with? Lambda and hazama beat everyone out in the air from a distance anyway. Jumping at lambda/haz is unsafe for everyone, this is not ragna specific. How does that make j.C any less safe?

If ara's 2D makes it whiff or clash at worse then isn't that good for ragna? Cause he knows at worst it will whiff, at best clash so now he's in ara's face, exactly where he wants to be.

lol, do you know why this topic started out in the first place? Ve said rags approach is risky, and I said otherwise, using 5B and j.C as to why. So I don't understand what you were trying to pin point in your last paragraph.

Also, ofcourse you're gonna block 5B, what else were you gonna do in the first place? How is it still not safe since most characters can't punish him from that range. What does IBing 5C and punishing 2C have to do with this?

Aslo, Saying you can IB 5C and reversaled 2C doesn't make it any less safe. That's like saying bangs 5A isn't safe cause Buppa jayokued Dora during his 5A mash. You have to have a character than has a good IB reversal tool. Secondly, does that IB reversal tool require 50 heat? Which Dwindles down to only a few characters. If the ragna is just constantly tossing out 5B 5C 2C at jin/haku/haz with 50 heat then he's asking to be yukikazed/jayokued. That's sloppy play from the ragna, that still doesn't mean 5C 2C is unsafe.

[-Ladon-]

there's a lot of talk about properly spacing the j.C, you do realize you can respace yourself while they're commiting themself to the j.C right?

j.C and 5B are not universal zoning tools, I'd argue that most jump attacks can't really be seen as quality zoning tools period but that's for a different subject.

the majority of 5As beat ragna's 5B, and it doesn't even need to be timed that well, throw it out and catch his hitbox, run it through training mode, it's not that difficult.

5B and j.C definitely -cannot- compare to anything like ice swords/nirvana/nails/stick/chains/hakurange/etc. ragna doesn't have anything from a decent range that'll scare anyone from trying to space him. The only thing that's keeping him so godlike right now is that he gains 50 heat (which solves his zoning problem) off smart combos that are near universal, except for the range you're depicting(without heat, at 5B range, ragna only has a 2k combo which forces you full screen if you're not near a corner, and to throw in a gamble to keep you near him, he has to only make it 1.5k just so he can stay on top of you)

so I'm a little confused, why are we arguing about ragna's j.C and 5B range when spaced properly he gets very little reward without 50 heat?

[Skye]

..

What is this madness?

You can't poke on reaction?

You can't anti air on reaction?

Maybe you can't, or at least don't try to.

So while you wanna go into theory fighter, how about this, how about doing it preemptively?

If Jin or Hakumen do jc in reaction to an airborne Ragna, what the fuck is he gonna do? Use jesusc and somehow beat you to it?

Why are you standing around letting him?

And what's this shit about not being able to anti air on reaction, if Ragna is in the air, in Tager's air space, what's gonna stop the man from ACing? What is Ragna gonna do? Break the grab?

You don't yomi an anti air, well--you can, but that's not how anti airs are used.

Arakune's 2b, clashnig at worse is a 50/50, if Ragna is in his face you have to take into account that Arakune's 6 frame 5a has longer range than Ragna's 5 frame 5a, and the clashing part went under the assumption that Ragna is actually spacing his shit. If he dares run in on a clash, he'll eat or block a 5a, allowing Arakune to jump back. If he doesn't space it, I guarantee you 2b will stuff his jc. I've tested this and used it in real time matches.

If Ragna can do 5b and connect, he's gonna block string you, learn to Ib and punish his follow ups, If Ragna doesn't commit to a 5b, his opponent can get away. That's where 5c and 2c fits into this.

Punishing something on IB always makes a difference. It makes a move--and follow me here--unsafe on Instant Block. And IBing Ragna isn't hard at all, it helps you punish his shit and he'll have to commit to something and hope you don't.

Now on the subject, Ragna's approach is risky, unless you are Tsubaki or Noel or something.

Fact of the matter is you shouldn't be standing around, eating 5b and jcs for free, that's sloppy play from you.

Learn some footsies.

[smooshman]

If Jin or Hakumen do jc in reaction to an airborne Ragna, what the fuck is he gonna do? Use jesusc and somehow beat you to it?

Why are you standing.

you can't reaction it with jin's JC. period it's not mathematically possible. Rag's JC is 12 frames, Jin's is 10, Jin's jump is 4 frames....... so you have to yomi it. and if you guess wrong you eat shit and die because Ragna will eat you alive.

oh and trying to out poke Ragna is a fool's errand for most of the non-lambda/hazama/hakumen cast.

Arakune, lambda, and Hazama can just run away, and they can harass Ragna from a distance with projectiles stoping his approach.

you mean a zoner makes it hard to approach? no way, that's new. seriously, against most of the cast they have to attack Ragna first or face serious pressure that is done from a surprising range.

and of course 5A's will beat it out, that's obvious. but most 5A's/2A's are 6/7 frames respectively, so you have 1-2 frames to react, and they don't have the range, so if you did it wrong then you eat 5B and more pressure....

[mAc Chaos]

Oh Skye... looks like old habits die hard.