ZONG_one Posted August 16, 2010 Posted August 16, 2010 you can't reaction it with jin's JC. period it's not mathematically possible. Rag's JC is 12 frames, Jin's is 10, Jin's jump is 4 frames....... so you have to yomi it. and if you guess wrong you eat shit and die because Ragna will eat you alive. You'd be reacting to the IAD if anything. Not to the second the Ragna player hits j.C. If you're doing that, it's already too late, Ragna's in your ass. If you react to the jump/IAD the only thing that's gonna stop you in that case is ID. Who does IAD ID? Unless I'm misunderstanding the conversation going on.
smooshman Posted August 16, 2010 Posted August 16, 2010 You'd be reacting to the IAD if anything. Not to the second the Ragna player hits j.C. If you're doing that, it's already too late, Ragna's in your ass. If you react to the jump/IAD the only thing that's gonna stop you in that case is ID. Who does IAD ID? Unless I'm misunderstanding the conversation going on. this is more accurate. you don't react to JC, you react to the jump/IAD. as for beating it on ground (on reaction), I'm DP's and Ragna's own 6A would do it.... but DP's offer little return... except for Ragna.... Fuck Ragna's really ahead of the curb lol.
soujiro seta Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 snip oh no we weren't talking about the reward he gets off 5b/j.b but rather how safe/unsafe his approach is. What is this madness? You can't poke on reaction? You can't anti air on reaction? Maybe you can't, or at least don't try to. So while you wanna go into theory fighter, how about this, how about doing it preemptively? What the.....? I don't even understand what is going on here. Did you read my post? You said you can AA rags j.C with jin/haku j.C or with tager's AC on reaction. I said you can't. By the time you attempt either one of those, you'd get hit by j.C. This is not theory fighter. If Jin or Hakumen do jc in reaction to an airborne Ragna, what the fuck is he gonna do? Use jesusc and somehow beat you to it? Why are you standing around letting him? In order to do j.C with jin/haku to a ragna who is going to going to IAD j.C, you'd have to jump up before he does and do j.C, aka guessing. You'd AA him while he's in his air dash animation. Are you reallly arguing that you j.C ragna...... hell are you really arguing that you can AA any character IADing at you with haku's/jin's j.C on reaction? Besides 4C (cause jin doesn't have one), why do you think hakus/jins spam j.C in the carl matchup? Keyword spam. They are trying to stop carl from coming from the air. You cannot j.C carl (or any character for that matter, besides tager cause he cant IAD) on reaction when he's already IADing towards you. They spam j.C because they are anticipating he'll try to come from the air. Problem is they don't know when, so they spam it endlessly so that he'll have a hard time approaching from the air. You seem to know something the japanese don't, cause according to you they shouldn't spam it, and they can AA carl with j.C on reaction. And what's this shit about not being able to anti air on reaction, if Ragna is in the air, in Tager's air space, what's gonna stop the man from ACing? What is Ragna gonna do? Break the grab? What are you talking about? Are you saying tager AAs rags with AC after ragnas neutral jumps when he's already close to tager? That is not ragna specific, it will work on all characters. I'm talking about ragna IADing and using j.C at max range. How can tager AC him? Lol, you're asking for a free CH into combo. You don't yomi an anti air, well--you can, but that's not how anti airs are used. Except I'm talking about doing stuff on reaction. You can 6A someone dashing at you on reaction, you can't j.C with haku/jin someone dashing at you on reaction cause you'll lose everytime. The only way to win is doing it before theirs, a guess. If Ragna can do 5b and connect, he's gonna block string you, learn to Ib and punish his follow ups, If Ragna doesn't commit to a 5b, his opponent can get away. That's where 5c and 2c fits into this. Punishing something on IB always makes a difference. It makes a move--and follow me here--unsafe on Instant Block. And IBing Ragna isn't hard at all, it helps you punish his shit and he'll have to commit to something and hope you don't. Now on the subject, Ragna's approach is risky, unless you are Tsubaki or Noel or something. Fact of the matter is you shouldn't be standing around, eating 5b and jcs for free, that's sloppy play from you. Learn some footsies Uhh, ragna being in his 5b range and poking you with 5b doesn't automatically equate to blockstring. He can just poke you with 5b and do nothing else after that to see you're reaction. Change the timing up, leave holes, add hells fang, etc. Ragna not committing to 5B doesn't mean his opponent can automatically get away. Like I said, he can do things or not do things, to get a reaction from you. Punishing anything on IB makes a difference. This is not specific to ragna. Hell if every tager could IB 360/720 5a/2a like Galileo then tager would be S tier. That doesn't mean doing 5a/2a against tager is dangerous, lol as long as he's not Galileo, it just means the person is using a character that can IB punish 5a/2a. You're making the assumption that every character is IB punish friendly, that once you IB anything, regardless of who you're using, you can punish it. I assure you that is not the case. IBing ragna doesn't have to be hard, if it were so easy and everything he did was easily IBed and punished by everyone then he would be rachel tier. The reason why you don't see a lot of characters IB punish ragna is cause they're usually out of range to. That was the first mistake you made, assuming that an IB against ragna with any character = an automatic punish. There's a reason why I said his approach is safe, cause you're out of range to punish his blockstrings with most characters even if you IB, and what ever he does next will counter hit you in your attempt to punish him after your IB. Lol, with the way you sound it's easy to think everything ragna does is unsafe after all it's so easy to just IB punish everything he does cause he's so predictable. Ragnas approach isn't risky. 5B and j.C, like I've said, are why. He can approach most of the cast safely from the ground and air without fear of being AA or out-ranged upclose. You'd be reacting to the IAD if anything. Not to the second the Ragna player hits j.C. If you're doing that, it's already too late, Ragna's in your ass. If you react to the jump/IAD the only thing that's gonna stop you in that case is ID. Who does IAD ID? Unless I'm misunderstanding the conversation going on. Exactly this explains it better. You can't AA ragna, or any character, IADing at you with haku's/jin's j.C on reaction. You'd be reacting to their IADing, but by the time your j.C comes out, it'd be too late and you'd get hit by what ever they did first. Yes Zong said what I was trying to say, but mine didn't come out well, (I hate you zong always trying to _one up me lol). You can jump in reaction to rags IAD if anything, but you'd lose if you think jin's/haku's j.C will come out before his.
soujiro seta Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 Also, I have a question for you guys. What made Potenkim high tier in GG? IIRC someone said he was, and I was wondering why. I watched a couple vids of him and I saw that he has a ground stomp move, don't know its name, that knocks down the opponent. If tager had a move like this do you guys think that would help him? I mean right now most of his matches go like this 1. I get outzoned all day and I can't get in 2. Even when I do get it I don't have enough tools to work with. By giving tager a move like this, with a recharge time (say like 4 seconds), could this make his approach a bit easier? the knock down will last for like 1.5 seconds and he can combo off it if he's close enough. Yes you'd have jumpy opponents but at least it makes approaching/zoning him from the ground a bit harder. What do you guys think? I don't know I'm asking.
ZONG_one Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 He had slide head. Yes, it would help Tager. He could double jump. o.O Better command grab. Air command grab. Heavenly Potemkin Buster. Tager can't control air like Pot could. Unblockable resets. + insannnneeeee meter gain on heat fist. (Which is also better than collider, I thought.) He is just worlds better than Tager. These are just the things I think are better, after being on day 2 Potemkin, so I'm sure someone else could go WAYYYYY in depth on that one.
smooshman Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 snip well it might be possible to on reaction punish a fullscreen IAD JC, but they shouldn't be JC'ing at that range.... Ragna's approach isn't perfect, but the risk/reward is jarring Also, I have a question for you guys. What made Potenkim high tier in GG? IIRC someone said he was, and I was wondering why. I watched a couple vids of him and I saw that he has a ground stomp move, don't know its name, that knocks down the opponent. If tager had a move like this do you guys think that would help him? I mean right now most of his matches go like this 1. I get outzoned all day and I can't get in 2. Even when I do get it I don't have enough tools to work with. By giving tager a move like this, with a recharge time (say like 4 seconds), could this make his approach a bit easier? the knock down will last for like 1.5 seconds and he can combo off it if he's close enough. Yes you'd have jumpy opponents but at least it makes approaching/zoning him from the ground a bit harder. What do you guys think? I don't know I'm asking. you mean that bullshit fullscreen invincble unblockable THAT CAUSED KNOCKDOWN (big deal in GG, since there are no techrolls, and you can't control your wake up, except robo and bridget)?.... please not again *vietnam flashback* also, while not exactly relevant to the topic, the reason pot was so high tier was that he had incredible damage, incredible ATG, incredible oki, and all that meant that he had a MASSIVE kill box that covered half the screen and a good portion of the air, and I mean kill, you'd be lucky to lose 60%. He also had the aformentioned fullscre etc. that could be used as a reversal..... he was too good.
Henaki Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 no up back, potemkin had real knockdowns so he also had real mixups, better bread and butter off anti-jump, actual damage (80% on max punishes, 60% on command throws). tager has magnetism though, which is actually good because he has "full screen" control in certain instances, and a lot of good mixups/traps with it.
Halcyone3 Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 tager =/= potemkin potemkin was a much better character, but that dosen't mean that just taking moves from potemkin and giving them to tager is the solution, move copy and pasting is very poor character design imho. Finding ways to make tager better while not making him into potemkin would be the better approach. The one thing that makes him unique from other grapplers is that magnetism, though i do not know what much else they could do with that right now besides give it stronger pull or something =/
soujiro seta Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 Wow, he had that much stuff.... and was a grappler. 60 - 80% punishes, air command grab, unblockable resets, high meter gain, AND MORE o_O!!! lol, I can see why Mori doesn't want another grappler to be top. I know what you mean Halcyone, you don't want copy and paste, but maybe just by taking this move specifically it'll be easier to then take tager in a better direction. What I mean is as unique as he may be, the current tools he has just don't cut it just yet, and maybe by borrowing 1 move from his bigger brother then it'll be easier to take him into his own unique direction once he's balanced out vs the cast so to speak. I know they can still make him better without borrowing, the problem is after watching Pot I couldn't even think of a move that they could give tager to help him that wouldn't look like borrowing. It can be hard balance a grappler without maybe going overboard. Cause as it looks right now tager might be destined to low tier. He needs a way to make zoning him a bit more risky up close. Or maybe they could split tager's spark bolt meter into 2 bars. He still does 1 SB with a full meter (2 bars), but instead he has a magnetic stomp, similar to slide head, and it magnetizes grounded opponents. 1 stomp takes 1 bar, and he can combo off it if he's within range. Ofcourse it's still borrowing from Pot but with a magnetic twist. The magnetic stomp looks like tager's 6B but a bit faster, so tagers can fake it. It could be also be used as a substitute to GF on his opponents wakeup. 6B fake out on his opponents wakeup when they're right next to him, If they jump he can AC>combo. This would add mind games and net him more damage without actually increasing his overall damage. Assuming arc doesn't want to increase his damage.
mundus Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 tager =/= potemkin potemkin was a much better character, but that dosen't mean that just taking moves from potemkin and giving them to tager is the solution, move copy and pasting is very poor character design imho. Finding ways to make tager better while not making him into potemkin would be the better approach. The one thing that makes him unique from other grapplers is that magnetism, though i do not know what much else they could do with that right now besides give it stronger pull or something =/ Potemkin sucked back in GG and GGX if a remember correctly, it was not until GGXX he started to get good, also Tager the character is not bad, just some of his matchups...
Lord Knight Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 JP BBS came out with a revised tier list a couple of days ago. They took 6 famous players (this means top players) and told them to give a character a ranking between 5 and 1, 5 is the highest, 1 is the lowest. After adding up all their scores, the total score determines the rank. The poster did not reveal the names/handles of the players. The votes where originally ordered differently - for convenience sake I listed them in order of strength as well. Also note that there are a couple of ties (specifically Hakumen/Hazama, Ragna/Tao, Tsubaki/Rachel). S: Bang Litchi A+: Hazama Hakumen A: Carl Arakune Ragna Taokaka B+: Jin B: Lambda C+: Noel C: Tager Tsubaki Rachel -------- Actual votes (excuse my godlike formatting) (koogy feelin himself damn ) S: 5 points, A: 4 points, B: 3 points, C: 2 points, D: 1 point, "+": 0.5 point Bang: 5.0/5.5/5.0/5.0/5.0/5.0 = 30.5 = Average 5.1 = S (1st) Litchi: 5.0/5.0/5.0/5.0/5.0/5.0 = 30.0 = Average 5.0 = S (2nd) Hazama: 4.5/4.5/5.0/3.0/4.0/5.0 = 26.0 = Average 4.3 = A+ (3rd) Hakumen: 4.5/4.5/5.0/4.0/4.0/4.0 = 26.0 = Average 4.3 = A+ (3rd) Carl: 4.0/4.0/4.0/4.0/4.0/4.0 = 24.0 = Average 4.0 = A (5th) Arakune: 4.0/4.5/4.0/3.0/4.0/4.0 = 23.5 = Average 3.9 = A (6th) Ragna: 4.0/4.0/4.0/3.0/4.0/4.0 = 23.0 = Average 3.8 = A (7th) Taokaka: 4.0/3.0/4.0/5.0/4.0/3.0 = 23.0 = Average 3.8 = A (7th) Jin: 3.0/4.0/4.0/2.0/3.0/4.0 = 20.0 = Average 3.3 = B+ (9th) Lambda: 3.0/3.0/4.0/2.0/3.0/3.0 = 18.0 = Average 3.0 = B (10th) Noel: 3.0/2.0/3.0/1.0/3.0/3.0 = 15.0 = Average 2.5 = C+ (11th) Tager: 3.0/3.0/2.0/1.0/2.0/2.0 = 13.0 = Average 2.2 = C(12th) Tsubaki: 2.0/2.0/2.0/1.0/2.0/2.0 = 11.0 = Average 1.8 = C (13th) Rachel: 2.0/2.0/1.0/2.0/2.0/2.0 = 11.0 = Average 1.8 = C (13th) Take this how you will.
Shervin Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 Waiting for some dumbass to be like THIS TIER LIST IS WRONG TAGERS TOP TIER!
FunkyP Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 There you have the professional opinion that Bang is still better than Litchi after all this time.
mAc Chaos Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 I like how that one player gave Bang a 5.5 on a scale of 1 to 5. I wonder how to square this with the SBO teams, though?
Sneakman Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 Comparing tier lists Ragna is in the same spot he was in CT? IMPOSSIBLE! XD
SolheartStud Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 Well I'm pleased to know that someone realized that Tager is better than Tsubaki...But Hazama tied with Hakumen and better than Carl, Arakune, and Ragna? Not too sure of that...But it's interesting nonetheless and for the most part accurate in my opinion. I would think Ragna and Hazama should switch places and then it would be fine.....Although I still say Litchi's better than Bang but maybe Bang's just first because his name comes first Alphabetically? Ah well, nice list either way.
Spinzaku Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 I like how that one player gave Bang a 5.5 on a scale of 1 to 5. I wonder how to square this with the SBO teams, though? It says "+" = 0.5 so they voted bang as S+ tier
A.X.I.S. Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 lmfao I told you guys tsubaki is shit. she is bad as rachel...what a useless character. oh man I am gonna get hype over this. lol ragna is under ara, skye will flip when he see's this.
NeonCrusader Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 I like how Jin, Lambda, and Noel are in their own sub-tiers. But anyway, Hazama that high up? Has there been some recent influx of really good Hazama players, or some sort of new playstyle facet, or something? Or is Japan really that good at using Houtenjin?
Kristoph Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 I think the real story is that fourth guy putting Taokaka in S tier. edit: actually, looks like he's just weird as fuck in general.
Spirit Juice Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 There you have the professional opinion that Bang is still better than Litchi after all this time. It was probably Dora that put bang as 5.5 Why the fuck he did that is beyond me (probably trolling like usual). It's probably just safe to say Litchi and Bang are equal anyways since a whole .1 difference isn't anything important. And way to fucking ruin things, LK. We decided not to post the tier list when we were talking about it on IRC because of the potential idiocy it could cause.
Partialartist Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 Tager could get something similar to slide head. Just make his 6B chargeable and have the charged version knock down, if the opponent is on the ground.
atdsutm Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 is arc system reading this thread and smart enough to look at troll and non troll posts? and if only the match up thread is update they could get info
SolheartStud Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 lmfao I told you guys tsubaki is shit. she is bad as rachel...what a useless character. oh man I am gonna get hype over this. lol ragna is under ara, skye will flip when he see's this. I actually realized just how bad she was when I completed her Challenge Mode 3.....just saying....
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