Afrikaan Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 SMH. I guess according to the JBBS thread, Ragna dropped to A tier because he was trouble creating situations in which he gets damage. In other words, he gets his damage based someone's mistake (not blocking high/low correctly, jumping out at the wrong time, getting footsy'd). Let's also not forget that his pressure game, while pretty solid, only lasts so long before he's pushed out too far, and it's also completely ruined by IBing. In addition, he has a hard time turning random hits into solid combos, unlike Bang and Litchi. This. Once you get to a certain skill level, Ragna actually has to be pretty darn random to get damage in. Once you learn how to block overheads consistently Ragna's damage output drops considerably. And if he doesn't get his hits at a certain range, his damage peaks out at what, 2.2Kish? That said, when he actually does get hits in, he makes you pay and gains giant amounts of meter while doing so. And there's always IB>Inferno Divider along with it being risk free 99% of the time because Ragna has meter to RC it safe. That is what's keeping him where he is now.
mAc Chaos Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 I'm not buying this list. Not without knowing what players were involved in making it. I could see Ragna at A+ or S-, maybe, but not A. A lot of people were sure he was S, before this list. Of course if you just accept the list and look for reasons Ragna is A, then you'll find some. Also Tager being in Rachel tier... that seems weird. I guess if we go by this list he's no better off than in CT after all.
FlyingVe Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 The list does seem just a bit off, but it looks alot better than before. IMO Ragna and lambda are ranked a bit weak, and hazama a bit strong, but that's what opinions are. Also, I think it's less Tager and Tsubaki are in Rachel tier, it's more Rachel is now in Tager/Tsubaki tier. She moved up.
Spirit Juice Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 The list was made by six "famous" players that were unnamed. They're probably good players, so this is likely the most accurate list we have right now.
FlyingVe Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 Well, I meant my opinion was probably less valuable. A famous Japanese player I am not. I would still like to here why they rate Hazama so high (is IB>Jayoku that good?) and Lambda so low. I vaguely remember hearing stuff about how Lambda was getting better and better.
mAc Chaos Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 Ah, I didn't think Rachel had improved that much. I just want to hear more about specific matchups and the reasons for why they are where they are. Until then we're just stuck with "HERE'S THE TIERS, ACCEPT IT *4C*". Until then I only have my own intuition to fill out the gaps.
ZONG_one Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 I would still like to here why they rate Hazama so high (is IB>Jayoku that good?) I don't know about anything else, nor am I even reading any of this other stuff. But to answer your question, yes.
Black Onslaught Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 IB> Jayoku leads to big fucking damage, and it ends with Hazama usually having enough heat to do it again.
FlyingVe Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 I was being a bit sarcastic, but it feels like thats the only reason he could be up so high. His other stuff is good, but not A+ tier.
DC Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 1. I don't think Tager is as bad as Rachel. 2. I don't think Hazama is as good as Hakumen. 3. I don't think Jin is better than Lambda. 4. I don't think Ragna is in the same tier as Carl/Kune/Tao. Just my opinions. I'm sure it's all already been discussed so w/e.
SolheartStud Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 IB> Jayoku leads to big fucking damage, and it ends with Hazama usually having enough heat to do it again. Funny you mention that....I do believe I heard once that Hazama's Meter gain is pretty good right? Meter is (obviously) pretty important in this game, and I could be wrong but isn't Jayoku one of the-if not THE best Fatal Counter move in the game?
ZONG_one Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 FCH aside, it's probably the best reversal super in the game. And yeah... FCH jayoku with 100 meter is godlike. (Which Hz has a lot of the time.) I'll add obligatory IMO, I guess.
Black Onslaught Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 Jayoku is IMO the best FC in the game for a number of reasons. 7 frame startup. 2.5k damage + godlike followup options You're kicking the other guy off of your fucking screen. Hazama's meter gain is explained like this : Hazama does his BnB that ranges from 2.3-2.9k, he gains 33-35 meter.
ZONG_one Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 Oh yeah, I forgot. Another Jayoku note. If it trades with anything, you still get very good follow up.
Black Onslaught Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 Well it's more or less If Jayoku trades it is -always- in Hazama's favor.
DC Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 lol Jayoku is weird some times though. I've seen Makoto's Asteroid Vision go right through it. Tager can go through it with a whiffed 360a. I've seen random attacks with no iframes just beat it clean for some reason.
Spirit Juice Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 Well it's more or less If Jayoku trades it is -always- in Hazama's favor. I wouldn't say ALWAYS, but probably 90% of the time. There are a few normals/special moves that make it not possible for him to connect a combo after a trade.
ZONG_one Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 I wouldn't say ALWAYS, but probably 90% of the time. There are a few normals/special moves that make it not possible for him to connect a combo after a trade. Can you list a few? (Strictly for curiosity's sake.) Thinking now, all I can come up with is probably sparkbolt.
CakeWasBannedd Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 Can you list a few? (Strictly for curiosity's sake.) Thinking now, all I can come up with is probably sparkbolt. I've had Jins 6C trade with Jayoku and the Hazama was unable to follow up in time. It's pretty iffy though, most of the time Jayoku just beats stuff clean.
Black Onslaught Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 Jin's 6C and B Sledge come to mind. Oh, B Sledge..
Spinzaku Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 Jayoku is IMO the best FC in the game for a number of reasons. 7 frame startup. 2.5k damage + godlike followup options You're kicking the other guy off of your fucking screen. Hazama's meter gain is explained like this : Hazama does his BnB that ranges from 2.3-2.9k, he gains 33-35 meter. Indeed. Hazama has some pretty good meter gain and he can convert a lot of random hits (not just chain confirms) into his regular j.214B# BnB. With 50 meter, he's easily one of the most dangerous characters in the game and deserves a lot of respect at that point in a fight, coupled with his above average meter gain. Compared to someone like Litchi, who doesn't have a lot of options out of sustained pressure, Hazama really takes the cake on that note. Jayoku beats out most moves in the game and easily leads into a combo that pretty much gives most of his meter back. That said, I can understand his position on that jbbs tier list, but with SBO coming up in a month it should definitely be taken with a grain of salt.
-Ladon- Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 Can you list a few? (Strictly for curiosity's sake.) Thinking now, all I can come up with is probably sparkbolt. A lot of things that low profile hard JH can't catch, think makoto 3c/noel 3c low though
smooshman Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 Can you list a few? (Strictly for curiosity's sake.) Thinking now, all I can come up with is probably sparkbolt. .....hmmmm.... I'd imagine Ragna's CH 2D, and Jin's C and D DP will beat it... and BO beats D DP.... so I'd imagine BO could too.
Halcyone3 Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 A lot of things that low profile hard JH can't catch, think makoto 3c/noel 3c low though done it with makoto, haven't tried with noel.
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