BB:CS Match-Up Chart

[Diveman]

Make your opponent guess wrong and you will win with Tager, unlike making them guess wrong in CT and still losing.

this is so awesome...still 100% truth

[Kurumster]

Makoto has mixup?

[OmniSScythe]

Wow, people overestimating Makoto. A lot.

Definitely.

Actually, her damage output is pretty good even without the Parry Loop. With it, the output becomes shit crazy.

2.5-6.8k is her average damage range with or without the Parry Loop, though I prefer her corner oki combos more then raw damage. (usually ends with 50 meter plus forced block on tech)

Makoto has mixup?

2 highs and 3 lows though her only worth while mixups come from either PCing her blockstrings or resets during her Parry Loop which may appear as a on going part of her combo.

[Hecatom]

but if there is a balance patch like the rumor says, the current tier list can be very different from what is now, we dont know who will be buffed or nerfed :{/

Make your opponent guess wrong and you will win with Tager, unlike making them guess wrong in CT and still losing.

lol i see

[HiagoX]

2.5-6.8k is her average damage range with or without the Parry Loop, though I prefer her corner oki combos more then raw damage. (usually ends with 50 meter plus forced block on tech)

Yes, me too.

[ZONG_one]

Makoto won't be A.

And if top 3 Didn't exist, she'd still be #4 or lower, imo.

#4 without current top 3, means currently I think she's #7 or lower.

[farranpoison]

Makoto is a solid B+, imo. Great damage, a monster up close, but eh pokes and mixup. And approaching with Makoto in the air is suicide unless the opponent doesn't have a great AA.

Ragna, Haku, Bang, Litchi all outpoke her. Not sure about Carl because I haven't fought a good Carl yet. And vs Hazama she's great up close but far away it's hard to get in, same with vs Lambda.

And honestly, I don't use parry cancel at all, yet I can still do great damage and pressure. It's just with parry cancel (if you can do it consistently, lol) her great options up close become even better.

[Eshi]

@farranpoison, I've been playing with Isuyaru a lot offline and I see the match-up as 5-5. Carl has really tight pressure that I have a really hard time escaping, but he can't do jack to escape makoto's pressure either. They both have useful tools against each other in the match-up, I can't see it as being in either character's advantage.

where do you guys think makoto would place in the tier list?

I'd say top three.

I will list the stuff that would make her place top three IMO ..... please feel free to disagree and correct me if I'm wrong

her jabs are insanely prioritized and safe.

her j.2C is safe on block and leads to free pressure afterwards and hard to punish on IB.

parry that comes out in 1F .. semi reversal IMO and a good AA option.

has ragna's AA.

fullscreen projetile that takes a primer.

Big Bang .. comes out in 2F ..... I wouldn't mind that if the inputs were like litchi's All Green but BB inputs is mad easy to pull off on reaction to counter a move or even some characters' jabs that are recovering

j2C is not safe on block unless done from a certain height or as a meaty or something similar. It's not a good aerial in a lot of situations, the momentum changing is nice though. I'm pretty sure parry does not come out on frame 1 from experience. Her jabs are nice but they don't have insane priority, especially compared to a character like Bang who stuffs her jabs all day. Her AA isn't nearly as good as Ragna's, the hitbox isn't even close to as good and it's not as reliable. Her projectile taking off a primer is cool but honestly, no one is going to just sit there and eat it, it's easy to jump over. Big Bang really is ridiculous though.

I see makoto being A tier at the highest. She has great damage output, lots of resets, pretty good jabs, crazy good super, etc. But she is very very prone to zoning and her block strings are extremely unsafe against IBing. Bang's 5A/5B give her absolute hell, Litchi and Ragna outpoke her easily, Mu and Lambda's zoning give her a lot of problems. She's a solid character with clear weaknesses, not anywhere near top tier IMO.

[MisterBadguy]

j.2c is the worst thing you can do to a Tager that knows how to block. Free-720-thanks-for-playing. In general, alot of the taller characters (especially Litchi and Ragna) can IB punish it, and it's pretty easy to react to.

Has insane priority though.

[XDest]

On another note, anyone else think that Lambda, Tsubaki and Noel have worse matchups vs. Taokaka than what's shown in the chart? Especially Lambda. I would like to know what other people think about those matchups.

[farranpoison]

Makoto j.2C is so bad, I use it like once in a match, if at all, and that's it. It's so slow that anyone with a good AA can punish it in their sleep, or IB punish it.

If it had a guard point or something, then it might help Makoto's terrible air approach game.

[MisterBadguy]

On another note, anyone else think that Lambda, Tsubaki and Noel have worse matchups vs. Taokaka than what's shown in the chart? Especially Lambda. I would like to know what other people think about those matchups.

Tao is a massively underestimated character in general IMO.

Makoto j.2C is so bad, I use it like once in a match, if at all, and that's it. It's so slow that anyone with a good AA can punish it in their sleep, or IB punish it.

It's not quite THAT bad. It's still useful off of B/C astroid because it's harder to react to that way. Once it's out, it also has Arakune's j.b complex where it clashes everything. So it's got it's uses.

If it had a guard point or something, then it might help Makoto's terrible air approach game.

I wouldn't complain if I had a better jump in too, honestly. :/

[Spark]

I'm pretty sure parry does not come out on frame 1 from experience.

You can parry from frame 1.

[XDest]

I also wonder if the extra +2000 damage Tao now gets from 20-30 meter changes her matchups at all. 5B to 6k is pretty ridiculous.

[MisterBadguy]

I also wonder if the extra +2000 damage Tao now gets from 20-30 meter changes her matchups at all. 5B to 6k is pretty ridiculous.

It wouldn't surprise me. As it stands though, we're probably waiting until after BBCSII for a new, more solid matchup chart.

[whitevoid]

j.2c is the worst thing you can do to a Tager that knows how to block. Free-720-thanks-for-playing. In general, alot of the taller characters (especially Litchi and Ragna) can IB punish it, and it's pretty easy to react to.

Has insane priority though.

J2C is jump cancelable.

If not for BBS, I would put her in B tier. However, easy meter gain and lots of meterless damage means she'll almost always have it available. And so BBS lets her threaten somewhat if she can't get in.

[ZhePrime]

Actually, her damage output is pretty good even without the Parry Loop. With it, the output becomes shit crazy.

I dunno, I'd say average. At mid-screen (without parry) it's rather unimpressive and in the corner it's pretty much standard damage.

Not horrible damage, just mediocre. But this damage talk is relative.

Makoto has mixup?

Sure she does, it's simply not very good.

j.2c is the worst thing you can do to a Tager that knows how to block. Free-720-thanks-for-playing. In general, alot of the taller characters (especially Litchi and Ragna) can IB punish it, and it's pretty easy to react to.

Has insane priority though.

The good thing about her j.2C is that it halts her momentum and that it clashes it damn near everything (from Hazama's chains to certain AA attacks).

Against Tager it's also very good at stopping colliders, especially if they try and suck you in.

[farranpoison]

BBS actually doesn't have a lot of invincibility, so not that great as a reversal. I've been 5B'd out of it on wakeup, and also 720'd out of it. It is, however, a great midscreen backdash/airdash punisher, or a punisher for whiffed moves in general. Against Haz you'll find no better punish for whiffed chains.

[redsilversnake]

He has zoning tools, in the form of snakes and some long pokes like 3c and j.b.

His zoning and j.B are indeed good tools for him, but 3C should never be used as a poke. Any follow-up to it except 236D can be punished pretty easily.

He has the reversal of the century with houtenjin, and his flash kick from stance is also very respectable, along with being incredibly safe (even more so against airborne opponents)

Houtenjin may be his best meter option, but it's hardly "the reversal of the century." It is one of the better reversals in the game, but not the best. As for 214D~B, you're really overblowing it. It's nowhere near as good as most other reversals. You can get decent damage off a counter hit (especially if Hazama's close to the corner), but if it's blocked, the opponent has enough time to rush in and poke. It's better as an anti-air, since the opponent has to barrier to block it (which, of course, gives more pushback) and can't do anything till they land, giving Hazama more time to zone them.

He has many different anti-airs, from fast like 5a to invincible like 2c and 214db, to long range with snakes and hunger coils

623D isn't a good anti-air. Maybe if you react to an empty super jump, but other than that, 5A, 2C, and 214D~B are far better.

He has very good pressure with 214da being safe on block and continuing pressure, and people are cautious about hitting him out of stance while risking a counter hit 214db, and very good dash 2a's

Throwing out 214D~A in a blockstring is a terrible idea unless you've conditioned them.

His mixup game is phenomenal between having a normal overhead, a standing low, a stance for high/low, an invincible command grab, a crossup j.2c (and j.b), and fast 2a's for tick throws

His mix-up is terrible. 6A is as easily blocked as any other overhead and can only be followed up by Jayoku, and his stance moves are easy to react to. As for his command grab, not only does it have the same limitations as Bang's, but it also prorates to hell (75-70%, I believe), so it shouldn't be relied on. IAD j.2C/j.B, though, is a good idea. You'll most likely cross them up and even if they block, you've essentially reset pressure. Tick throws...are universal, IIRC, so I see no reason to specify that for Hazama, seeing as his 5/2A isn't special.

He gets knockdowns from almost all his combos, and his meter gain is above average

Cut out "almost" and replace "above average" with "awesome," and this'll be the most the most accurate thing in your post.

[Ronove]

I also wonder if the extra +2000 damage Tao now gets from 20-30 meter changes her matchups at all. 5B to 6k is pretty ridiculous.

On paper it really doesn't change that much. I mean a damage increase thanks to the AB2 ender is obviously good (it's ridiculous, actually) however it doesn't really add more options in her offense or defense, or mixups. I'd say that her "recent" green grab air tech traps are far more important when thinking of revising her current matchups.

A damage increase only gives her better chances at either winning a round swiftly with less hitconfirms or at making a comeback, but that's something that generally applies to all of her matchups.

Anyway I'd say wait and see how Tsujikawa and Uiisura fair at Tougeki SBO, chances are they've proably tried to include all this stuff in their gameplay.

I dunno, I'd say average. At mid-screen (without parry) it's rather unimpressive and in the corner it's pretty much standard damage.

Not horrible damage, just mediocre. But this damage talk is relative..

The "problem" is not the damage of her no-PC midscreen BnBs...

Damage is 2.9k and may get to 3k if you hitconfirm from a jump in. The point is that her no-PC midscreen BnBs end with no oki and also push the opponent far enough to make it not really safe to immediately reapply pressure, especially against characters that can outpoke her easily.

[farranpoison]

I dunno, without the use of parry cancel a 5D midscreen ender is usually safe enough to dash in to apply pressure , since they slide and can't tech for so long.

But that's just me, I haven't been horribly punished so far, even against the better characters.

[Ronove]

They can escape without much trouble after that no-PC bnb, that's the point. You can't lock them unless you're at the corner (in which case you would have used her corner BnBs that end with forced oki).

Anyway, right now I feel that Makoto at most may be A tier but only if you make full use of all her parry cancel tricks (especially within blockstrings). Even with PC her bad matchups don't change that much since her biggest weakness still comes from her lack of range and the fact that she has to work hard on getting in compared to half of the cast. A way to partially fix this would be to reduce the recovery of her 236A~D, imo.

Also considering that the game is going to go through a rebalance the parry mechanic will probabily be revised so that it won't allow any one move-loop.

[Fireryda]

Ragna has awesome meter gain.

Getting 50+ from one bnb?

Hazama barely scrapes 40 unless he goes for 3x j.cx5 bnb which is not viable off some starters. he'll be getting ~30+ per combo on average. Above average definately but not awesome. His command throw is quite good but it has horrendous range and prorates to hell. Combos won't reach 2k+ without tacking on heat but you get meter so thats the most important part.

I can't see Hazama any higher than A tier and even that's pushing it. Definately not on the level of Haku/Carl/Ragna. His normals aren't that great apart from 5C and 5B. 5C is fast and has a pretty big hitbox infront of him and sets him up for massive damage combos and 5B gives him +2 and can let him go into pretty much anything. Jayoku is really good if you know how to use it well but it's easily baitable and it's not enough to bring him up to A+.

Compared to other characters his pressure game is basically non existant. He has almost no good over-heads as 214D~A can be reaction mashed out and 6A is slow and unsafe. His short range normals puts him out of range easily and if he tries to get back in he's easily countered. His zoning via chains isn't that great and requires good reads on the opponent to be able to get anywhere with it as they're easily blocked and any follow-ups are a risk/reward not in his favour.

[farranpoison]

Haz command grab is awesome for one thing.

INVINCIBILITY FRAMES.

No other command grab can make ID or JH whiff.

[ZONG_one]

Ragna doesn't get 50+ from one bnb.

I like how Person A always over exaggerates other characters' meter gain/options as an argument against Person B who is over exaggerating Person A's character's meter gain/options.

Does no one sense that irony?