ZONG_one Posted July 2, 2010 Posted July 2, 2010 It's not that bad. Plus, anyone can reversal a reset for free, if they have a reversal. You just have to bait it, like with anyone else. Only thing that bothers me, is her lasers keep going, even when she's in hitstun. At least that's how it looks from what I can tell. This, I'm not very happy about. Even bugs stop if you're in hit stun.
smooshman Posted July 2, 2010 Posted July 2, 2010 Only thing that bothers me, is her lasers keep going, even when she's in hitstun. At least that's how it looks from what I can tell. This, I'm not very happy about. Even bugs stop if you're in hit stun. to my knowledge all projectiles are guarenteed after a certain amount of time, the problem is they reflect..... in several directions.
DC Posted July 2, 2010 Posted July 2, 2010 You talkin to me? Well I'll answer anyways... the same reasons I thought this matchup was closer to even in CT. Her mixup is terrible to start with and with two entire buttons losing to one of his attack (C and D losing to sledge) it's even worse. Even moreso since now her pressure game relies on drive mixup. 6c was one of the amazing things in CT that scared sledge happy Tagers but it's way slower now and not nearly as effective. 2d is no longer an opener overhead. Spring Raid no longer has iframes (though I've never experienced this, I would assume sledge vs. Spring Raid results in double counter hit, correct me if I'm mistaken.) Even our fabled new poke (5c) is rendered useless. THOUGH I will admit 5d is now much more reliable against Sledge which is AMAZING. Jab is slower, and now Tager can IB jab and 360a. 6a and 6c are terrible fucking anti airs now. Still has some trouble getting in, even worse with slower attacks. Our little poke combos for 1.5k pales in comparison to what he does when he catches you, and he WILL catch you because of her short range and the fact that he's able to punish not only the recovery of some of her attacks, but the damn active frames of certain attacks also. Yes she has haidas on Tager I'm aware, but if Tager is getting hit (not punished) and haida'd often then quite frankly he's not playing the matchup right. I dunno I just feel like he's output way more damage than Noel can in an average round, and has an easier time catching a character without a sword or a doll or staff etc etc Just my opinions though. And yes I've played CS quite a bit.
Dacidbro Posted July 2, 2010 Posted July 2, 2010 Noel's damage output is higher than Tager's, barring naked MTW and 720. If you're having trouble with Tager watch more japanese matches of it to get ideas. Tager's overall a worse character, and I've seen Norcal Noel take down Norcal Tager a lot. It looks even to me.
ZONG_one Posted July 2, 2010 Posted July 2, 2010 I'm glad you actually typed out your opinion that way. I respect that, shynkz. I'm pretty sure overall, CT Noel was complete ass against Tager, though. I can't begin to see how CS could be worse. Use those iFrames to your advantage, and also, start to IB stuff. Sledge is free CH for you most of the time if you IB consistantly. (I'm way too unfamiliar with Noel to give specific pointers. I haven't messed with her.)
DC Posted July 2, 2010 Posted July 2, 2010 Noel's damage output is higher than Tager's, barring naked MTW and 720. If you're having trouble with Tager watch more japanese matches of it to get ideas. Tager's overall a worse character, and I've seen Norcal Noel take down Norcal Tager a lot. It looks even to me. Oh yeah I know Noel has the POTENTIAL to output insane damage but the unsafe moves they start from are imo even more unsafe in this matchup. I've been playing CT Noel for a loooong time so I'm well aware of the risk reward of my character but when I can get punished with 3-4k for fishing for a simple 5c poke shit gets nasty. Even trying to chip Tager down with my non-projectile normals (for low damage) can get me punished whereas he can throw out some unsafe shit at the risk of taking a jab combo. But yeah, mixup/yomi and whatnot. It's not as if she'll never get a good hit or anything. Especially with 5d completely wrecking sledge now like I said. In the end I simply think that in an average round and average match, Tager has more opportunities and less risk, and thus will output more damage than Noel will resulting in a win. 55/45 or maaaaaybe 60/40 Tager. Again, all my opinions.
Skye Posted July 3, 2010 Posted July 3, 2010 I'd like to enter a motion of Hazama vs Arakune is a lot worse for Arakune than 55:45. 65:35 it looks like.
mooyang90 Posted July 3, 2010 Posted July 3, 2010 Well, in CT Tager didn't have gadget finger. Our 2d went over his 2a, and our 3c's can go under his 5a's. It was slightly in favor of Noel in CT. Now Tager can guess right 3 times and win, while we have to poke and prod and pray some random 5D hits. Our damage potential is higher, but if you play against Noel right you shouldn't even have to worry it. If a Tager keeps falling into 5d he doesn't know the match-up, and that factor shouldn't be taken into consideration when regarding MU charts. Perfect play by Noel vs perfect play by Tager, Tager has a slight 6/4 advantage. Not insurmountable at all though.
smooshman Posted July 3, 2010 Posted July 3, 2010 I'd like to enter a motion of Hazama vs Arakune is a lot worse for Arakune than 55:45. 65:35 it looks like. nah, that would be pretty bad, haz definitely has advantage, but again Ara's curse is a condemnation. The biggest problem for Ara, ironically, is catching Hazama; Hazama can spider man around clouds and clash bugs with his chains.
Skye Posted July 3, 2010 Posted July 3, 2010 nah, that would be pretty bad That's kinda the point. Hazama has his chain, the anti zoning, zoning tool. He can poke poke poke poke for free, and the best Arakune can do to punish is a 3c mid screen, and that's as situational as they come. Arakune has no space to zone or set up anything, and if Hazama is remotely threatened, he can just swing out. Arakune loses long range, so he has to get close. But when he does, Hazama has and autopilot 2c or Gashoukyaku waiting for him. Those little but effective things makes it too damn hard to get curse in. It's an uphill battle from any range until Hazama is cursed. D spam at long range;2c or Gashoukyaku at close range is the strategy that kicked Hima out of SBO qualifiers. That's food for thought.
Black Onslaught Posted July 3, 2010 Posted July 3, 2010 I think you're right, Skye. Arakune is extremely disadvantaged pre-fever against Hazama. D spam keeps Arakune away, and Haz's superior normals really stop him from doing anything remotely threatening once inside. Then there's just the Anti-Arakune flowchart " D spam at long range, 2C for AA-CH, Gashoukyaku FC " that Skye mentioned.
Dacidbro Posted July 3, 2010 Posted July 3, 2010 Gashoukyaku fatals? Actually I don't even know which move Gashoukyaku is. The one that came to my mind is his DP, is that it?
Skye Posted July 3, 2010 Posted July 3, 2010 Yes, that's the anti air. And it's EX version (or whatever) is a FC. 214DB
FlyingVe Posted July 3, 2010 Posted July 3, 2010 It's only a fatal counter if you hold the 214D stance. Nobody should be jumping at Hazama when he's in the stance anyways, much less if he's been standing there for a second. Arakune has jD, which makes FC 214D~B pretty un-likely. Personally i don't think that matchup is that bad. Hazama's zoning hurts arakune to be sure, but it's nowhere near as good as lambda's, and that matchup is 6.5 against Kune.
A.X.I.S. Posted July 3, 2010 Posted July 3, 2010 ara can turtle you know. I don't even have time to even go into details.
Skye Posted July 3, 2010 Posted July 3, 2010 It's only a fatal counter if you hold the 214D stance. Nobody should be jumping at Hazama when he's in the stance anyways, much less if he's been standing there for a second. Arakune has jD, which makes FC 214D~B pretty un-likely. That's his one and only option and it carries the same risk/reward as Sledging vs Lambda. ara can turtle you know. I don't even have time to even go into details. Tager can turtle Lambda, but nothing will get done if that all he does. Same here. Get that theory fighter out of here.
A.X.I.S. Posted July 3, 2010 Posted July 3, 2010 unlike tager vs lambda you actually have mind games through the whole fight...hell you can actually get between the gaps or go slightly over him to summon the cloud, this match will never be as silly as tager vs lambda...sparkbolt is not all that useful.
Leo7 Posted July 3, 2010 Posted July 3, 2010 Literally the only thing that can save Tager is spark bolt, and it has to be used perfectly (IE Held on to to scare Lambda into using less options, while still maintaining threat) lambda can use gravity on reaction to this to dodge it. better for tager to combo it off something and it's not that bad a match-up (litchi or bang are definitely worse for tager), unlike CT, lambda doesn't have backdash + 2c as a get-out-of-jail card when tager actually gets in. she does have reversals, but they can be baited and punished (heck her dp is slow enough that after gadget tager can do a 5a and still block the dp). just block a lot, play it safe, get in and roll the dice.
Skye Posted July 3, 2010 Posted July 3, 2010 unlike tager vs lambda you actually have mind games through the whole fight...hell you can actually get between the gaps or go slightly over him to summon the cloud, this match will never be as silly as tager vs lambda...sparkbolt is not all that useful. Mind games and conditioning are not elements to a match up. The gaps aren't big enough to punish without worrying about an anti air bitch slapping you.
Dacidbro Posted July 3, 2010 Posted July 3, 2010 lambda can use gravity on reaction to this to dodge it. better for tager to combo it off something and it's not that bad a match-up (litchi or bang are definitely worse for tager), unlike CT, lambda doesn't have backdash + 2c as a get-out-of-jail card when tager actually gets in. she does have reversals, but they can be baited and punished (heck her dp is slow enough that after gadget tager can do a 5a and still block the dp). just block a lot, play it safe, get in and roll the dice. Good info.
Gates Posted July 6, 2010 Posted July 6, 2010 Pardon my intrusion and perhaps I am not qualified to suggest such a thing but I was wondering if perhaps it would be an appropriate time to at least begin brainstorming discussions of Mu-12's matchups? It would seem as though a basic grasp of her abilities are underway and her basic gameplay style is currently in the process of being formed, and a great deal of information has already been discovered about her.
feri Posted July 6, 2010 Posted July 6, 2010 Framedata? BnBs against the entire cast? Waiting for players of each and every character to develop strategies against her? You could slot her in anywhere. I dont think it matters at this stage cause she'll most likely be shifted around as stuff gets found out.
OmniSScythe Posted July 6, 2010 Posted July 6, 2010 It's still way to early to say that even her basics are even known, only thing that's obvious is some of her BnB, and that her lasers are really strong against Hazama and Carl. ...and what feri said, minus framedata since that's hardly relevant.
Skye Posted July 6, 2010 Posted July 6, 2010 Frame data is relevant, it lets you know how fast a move is, invincibility, where and for how long, reversals, DPs, static difference to know if you can punish and how well, repeated move penalty. All that is useful for match ups, amongst other things.
OmniSScythe Posted July 6, 2010 Posted July 6, 2010 I see where you getting at but that's more of a personal reference thing imo, all of that is just as findable from actual play.
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