[CS1] Bang FRKZ; The benefits and problems of using in blockstring

[Dacidbro]

I apologize, this is a very simple and straightforward thread, but I think the concept behind it is unique enough and will spark enough of its own conversation momentarily that it should be its own entity for its duration.

When you blockstring into FRKZ, the very next hit you throw will give them guard bonus if they do succeed in blocking it. (That means both the block that grants GB and subsequent blocks for 7 or so seconds are automatic instant blocks)

That is the core of this thread; originally, I was going to just post not to blockstring into FRKZ, because giving your opponent auto IBs is obviously a bad idea.. However, you can use this to your advantage. When playing an intelligent, knowledge-able opponent, they will know that they will get free guard bonus if you blockstring through FRKZ startup. So when playing an intelligent opponent, you can do something really douchey like a cross up command grab while they wait to receive their reward. On an opponent who doesn't know about it, you can surprise them with the guard bonus itself! (EX; 2B (guard bonus omg) 9 dash crossup jC > combo)

It's essentially a gimmick that breaks the 4th wall. You calculate the opposing player's knowledge about the game and have a stronger concept of their reaction than they can reasonably understand the first couple times you use it.

Obvious problems, you might over-think it or over-credit your opponent. I would only assume they know about the guard bonus if 1) my opponent was top, top level, or 2) I had already told them.

Thoughts?

[Dacidbro]

Oh, it's worth noting that the amount of things you can do using 2B > FRKZ > ???? is so mind blowing that usually your opponent will freak out to the point of flailing (forgetting or failing to think intelligently), as 2B should put them in about 15 frames of blockstun while you are free to move at +1 from the second your 2B lands, coming out to roughly 16 frames of possibility.

[TheDarkWall]

interesting concept. Seems like it turns into a 50/50 on any knowledgeable opponent with a reversal. Although the 2b set up does sound quite nice. Man I really want to play the new game. Just hope nothing gets changed about bang but proration, and even that not to much.

[zeth07]

I was watching some videos for the video thread recently and thought about this while watching Nezu play (or who I think is Nezu).

The main point of it still stands as pretty much a free guessing game because I'm sure most people can't react fast enough to Bang's FRKZ mix-ups in that particular situation even after an IB (unless they are mashing). So in that case, they still have to guess right out of "quite a few" choices the Bang player can make. Even if they guess right once, in most cases I'm sure the Bang can almost go into another mix-up immediately after so it is another guess they have to make (but I guess that also depends on what they go for after the IB). During the FRKZ "start-up", I would say the Bang player is definitely in control of the mind games at that point, whether it is during a block string or not.

In one instance, I saw "Nezu" just do 5A into tick command throw, they IB'd the 5A and he still caught em with the command throw probably from them not doing anything even after the IB'd 5A from being scared of Bang's FRKZ pressure/mix-up.

While it may help out the opponent by giving them IB's, I don't think it helps them enough to completely disregard doing FRKZ even during a blockstring. I could literally do the 9dash-j.C after FRKZ startup in like 5 straight rounds and I'm sure most people still wouldn't block it. People either can't react fast enough to it, or are too busy thinking too hard or being scared and get caught by it 9/10 times.

In my personal opinion, I'd say don't let this mechanic stop you from doing it, but definitely remember it is there. Besides that, I think there are plenty of opportunities to use FRKZ outside of a blockstring (and still be to your advantage) to where you might not even have to worry about it.

[Dacidbro]

Yeah, that's what I ultimately decided, Zeth. Not only is the guard bonus not an adequate reasoning to avoid using it, but may be a -benefit-, as when your opponent becomes decidedly more intent on blocking correctly, the cards are even more stacked in your favor as bang's FRKZ mix ups are damn near unblockable, particularly in non-japan.

[JinSaotome]

2B FRKZ 9-dash j.C 2-dash CH j.D

works like a charm

[Dacidbro]

9 dash jC is not guaranteed, and I can't imagine a reason to use jD after it when there are many other things that would option select combo off the hit or maintain pressure/mixup on the block. Past that, you didn't actually mention anything about the topic.

[zeth07]

Just to provide an example to the discussion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdtXa3pGDJc#t=7m38s

That Guard Bonus didn't do that Tager much good at guessing the next mix-up, instead he got totally freaked by some crazy ass mix-up and ended up eating 6k.

These long GAMEacho sets with "Nezu" (I don't know if it really is Nezu) pretty much destroying these people with FRKZ should be able to provide plenty of examples to the discussion for why it shouldn't have a huge impact on deciding whether to do it during a block string or not.

[Dacidbro]

Yeah.. if your opponent is Tager, 2B > FRKZ is pretty much kiss your ass goodbye. Even if they IB'd the 2B, they won't be able to 2C fast enough to gain air invuln, so you don't even have to worry about AA.

[mAc Chaos]

Can't Tager just 720 you as soon as FRKZ is over? I've seen it happen a lot.

[Dacidbro]

The reason that should happen almost never, particularly in the case of blocked2B > FRKZ, is that no matter what you have +1 frames after activation. That means that literally no matter what, you can ALWAYS escape a grab. Even if you activated FRKZ on neutral with Tager, you still are one frame ahead of him. Tager's 720 becomes active after 5 frames, so if he super flash buffers it you have 6 frames to avoid it if you were neutral on frames with him.

Now, if you blocked2B > FRKZ'd, you have ~15 frames of advantage simply because of the 2B, and after those 15 frames he has to -start- a move, if he wants to interrupt. That means that even if he hits the very first frame possible, you had to have been on the ground starting things for 16 frames, and stuck on the ground until 20. In short, after a 2B > FRKZ activation, it should literally never happen (Except if he calls out your command grab, I suppose), as there are many purely safe strong mix up options like 9 dash jC/5A > 9 dash jC/etc.

[rei-Scarred]

Are Bang's D moves dash cancelable on block in FRKZ? it seems like they shouldn't be but I thought I remembered seeing someone do d.2D d.2D once. I dunno kind of off topic and maybe I imagined it anyway.

[Dacidbro]

Yes, they are cancel-able on block. However, they are still all 22 frames and up start-time, so think of them as a frame trap. Their block stun is very good, so if you succeed in putting them in block with a drive, you have a lot of room to work with it.

[JinSaotome]

9 dash jC is not guaranteed, and I can't imagine a reason to use jD after it when there are many other things that would option select combo off the hit or maintain pressure/mixup on the block. Past that, you didn't actually mention anything about the topic.

You're right, that was a bad post on my part. I forgot to mention that yeah, the j.C is intended to be blocked by the opponent, then you cancel with 2-dash to j.D and guardpoint them on the AA attempt. I get away with it a lot more than I should.

and I guess this is kind of common sense but concerning overestimating your opponent, this applied in CT as much as it does in CS. FRKZ only works against good opponents/opponents who respect your offense, since random mashing can get you murdered dead if you're too fixated on mixing up, especially if they take guard bonus into account.

[Dacidbro]

Not true, actually. After the 2B FRKZ, you have 16 free frames; your first mix up is literally free, in all reasonable contexts. Even a 5C can only be interrupted in a window of 3 or so frames, and that's one of the slowest available mixups, esp in FRKZ. If you lead with 9 dash jC, you can option select combo or continue to 5A blockstring for free, go to something like 5A 5B 2B > cross up 5A and they only have a very very small window to react, much less punish. And that's just one set of options with no heat or nails for 2-3 free/near-free mixes.

FRKZ mix up is so god like it's not even funny

Oh, also, don't forget cruel tricks like fake-gatlings (IE 5D 6dash 5C) to make the mix up even more brutal.

[Reioumu]

yo where are you getting your info for frames? Cause 2B blockstun is 17 frames... I get this from 20 frames of recovery and you're -3 on block normally. Since you're in FRKZ you can just chain into a dash so no recovery. No clue where you're getting 15 from. And then add 2 more for FRKZ. Yes, it says +1, but apparently you can move 2 frames according to the notes on the mook. Probably takes 1 to start an attack which is probably why it says +1 or some shit.

Dacid. What was that about you bashing FRKZ when I was defending it awhile ago? Didn't you say it would throw away the matchup?

[rei-Scarred]

The j.C j.D thing is a complete waste in FRKZ, but honestly back in my younger days I would use that outside FRKZ with tremendous success surprisingly (j.C j.D is a gatling it doesn't need a dash cancel). What I would notice is rather than trying to AA the j.D and getting auto guarded, the opponent would just get distracted by the long startup and realize too late that they had a chance to react and punish it and end up getting CH themselves.

Naturally this is a side effect of playing online and I don't use it anymore cause if it gets blocked there goes the mixup you could've had if you just took the j.C. I suppose the only benefit I'd see is in FRKZ if it gets blocked you can at least dash cancel to get out of there but imho being in FRKZ at neutral is more dangerous than neutral without FRKZ so you want to keep in the enemies face at all times.

Being at neutral in FRKZ was especially annoying in CT because if you weren't careful dashing around you'd give yourself negative penalty. Thank god that's not a problem anymore.

Needless to say I wont use FRKZ in CS unless I'm joking around. It is extremely powerful and I can use it fairly effectively, but it is risky and Steel Rain, Daifunka, and RCs are just too good.

[Dacidbro]

yo where are you getting your info for frames? Cause 2B blockstun is 17 frames... I get this from 20 frames of recovery and you're -3 on block normally. Since you're in FRKZ you can just chain into a dash so no recovery. No clue where you're getting 15 from. And then add 2 more for FRKZ. Yes, it says +1, but apparently you can move 2 frames according to the notes on the mook. Probably takes 1 to start an attack which is probably why it says +1 or some shit.

Dacid. What was that about you bashing FRKZ when I was defending it awhile ago? Didn't you say it would throw away the matchup?

I was estimating the stun, I'm sure if you checked it you're right. Then it's 18 (Or 19, if the notes are right o-o) free frames, and 5C is an instant overhead

There are still a lot of matchups where it is a very bad/unnecessarily risky idea to FRKZ. I still maintain that. But it is pretty foolish to say that FRKZ mixup, pressure and damage isn't unreal.

[macrylinda1]

2B FRKZ 9-dash j.C 2-dash CH j.D

works like a charm

9 dash jC is not guaranteed, and I can't imagine a reason to use jD after it when there are many other things that would option select combo off the hit or maintain pressure/mixup on the block. Past that, you didn't actually mention anything about the topic.

[Dacidbro]

Did you just.. literally copy paste my response so you could bump the topic to advertise free movies online?

Seriously?

[Sonic]

Not if you dash up, you have a 1 frame advantage and iirc tagers grab comes out in about 3, meaning you should have 1 frame to escape, that is if an FRKZ dash has jump start up like the other ones do.

[Tofma]

i thought tagers b buster was 7f's

[Dacidbro]

I honestly don't even know what you're talking about Sonic, since the entire conversation was about starting it with 2B (Blocked) > FRKZ, which gives you something like 18 frames advantage. On top of that, Tager's grab is 6 frames if it's B buster, which has no invulnerability, and the A buster is invincible from 3-11 frame, but grabs even slower than B. Finally, FRKZ dash has no start up, but does commit to dashing.

[Sonic]

Ok guess I took it out of context, I was speaking of just being 720'd out of frkz on flash

[Dacidbro]

Nope, it's impossible. You have 1 frame advantage, so even if your FRKZ dash had jump start up, you could jump and you would get out, because jumps are throw invulnerable.