[CS1-CSE] Tsubaki Self-Improvement and Critique Thread

[LunarSelenia]

Wow lots of good stuff here O___o;; Thanks a lot for the input...will definitely try to put these all in...

I'll try to get some more matches in against Solar and all...hopefully we'll see some improvement with this over time.

I think now that I finally understand a bit more about her than day1....gotta start stepping away from what I'm used to and learn some more.

Thanks everyone for the help.

[y0shi]

So

I used to play Ragna in CS1, then CS2 came out and I was all like "Damn, Ragna combos are SOO different... Imma go play Heroes of Newerth!". Now HoN is free2play and it got kinda sucky. With that in mind I came back to BBCS2 and found out that Tsubaki is pretty viable (unlike CS). Now i am in this thread asking you guys for Tsubaki tips and that kind of stuff. More like "What should I keep in mind when playing Tsubaki". I saw that her mixup is GREAT and she can pull some damage with charges (which are a lot faster in CS2).

Help me please [?]

[TD]

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?10700-CS2-Tsubaki-Yayoi-Guide-Version-3.8-(Updated-6-30)

this is what you want to have a look at to get a general feel of her. once you learn the basics l advise looking at combos or watching videos of tsubaki play (theres a convenient combo thread and video thread on the tsu boards, and well as a question thread... for your questions lol).

this thread is for your videos that you may have uploaded to youtube, so people can visually see your actions and help you based off of how you played.

[TD]

Forgot about these.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qntsE1HsyNE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B36BzRnNE_Q

It was my first day of tsu being my official sub, and I was getting some basics down. I still cant seem to grasp her neutral game like at all, and that is what i'd reall love some critique on.

Ok, so I realize this is danisen stuff, and i'm sure no one likes having to look through the entire vid just to find the matches. For some convienence I added when tsu fought.

First vid-

0:00, tsu vs arakune

6:33, tsu vs ragna

9:25, tsu vs hakumen

Second vid-

7:32, tsu vs ragna

10:02, tsu vs haku

thx to mashthat5a (I really should get something to record with soon)

Edited August 7, 2011 by TD

[Kiba]

First Video:

vs Arakune: I have no advice to give you here. I thought you did really well. Nice burst bait.

vs Ragna: 8:04 I didn't know 5C had that much stun on normal block for you to be able to block a DP straight after. That was cool. Again I thought you did really well.

vs Hakumen: Again nice burst baits. The only thing I'll say here is that you could do a much better combo from a CH 236D with stock.

CH 236D - 5CC - 623C - 214A(w) - 214D - 2CC - IAD JCC(delay) - 5B - 2CC - 236B - 214B -22B for about 4.3k I think. It has good corner carry too and funny enough it's the combo I mentioned to BatousaiJ.

Alternatively you could use CH 236C - 6CC - 623C - 214A(w) - 623C - J236A(w) - J214D if you have them near the corner. If not you may have to end it there since doing 236D again will severely prorate the combo.

Second Video:

vs Ragna: Nice stuff

vs Hak: Great stuff.

TD stop trollin' and just main da girl .-.

[Airk]

Not too much advice here either - especially at neutral, your air/ground footsies are well above mine, so I've got nothing to talk to on that point. You may want to explore throwing out 214D to beat out pokes, but that's about all I can think of.

From the first Ragna match, as best as I can tell, you got lucky not getting DP'd in the face those couple of times - 5CC is absolutely punishable by ID if it's done on time. Basically, you should never just stop a string on 5C or 5CC - always charge cancel it if you don't do anything else; There's really no disadvantage that can ascertain to doing so.

I noticed you RC'd 6B a couple of times, and I'm...not entirely sure about that. It shouldn't be necessary for pressure, though it does make it tighter, and as a starter, I'm not sure rapiding it to go into 2B > stuff gains you a meaningful amount of damage overall. I'm not going to say don't do it, but you might want to evaluate why you do it.

Hakumen match it seemed like you could have added throws into your pressure game a little more - towards the end of the 2nd round, you had some midscreen pressure going on, and mixing in a throw there seems like it would have worked well. It seems like in general you only threw on people's wakeup, though I did see one pressure throw in the 2nd Hakumen match, so... yeah.

Very nice!

[Rhiya]

I didn't know 5C had that much stun on normal block for you to be able to block a DP straight after.

Quick note: it doesn't. It's -7.

5C>charge cancel, though, WILL recover in time to block a DP, even if they IB 5C. Blocking it on IB is really tight, though.

[Kiba]

Oh maybe the Ragna just DP'd late then. Apologies.

And thanks for that. I was uncertain about that but now that it's confirmed I dont need to worry about it

[Rhiya]

And TD, I kinda want to see you against better players before I give advice.

Like, that Ragna's spacing was free as hell >_>

In general, though, I think you were trying to run air game too much. Tsubaki's air-to-air and air-to-ground are pretty weak in neutral. Her ground-to-air is much better.

You were running some nice shit in places, though. Shoutouts that 214D crossup reset.

[Kiba]

And TD, I kinda want to see you against better players before I give advice.

I'll be honest.

I was thinking the same thing but I didn't want to be the one to say it. But I can pop out of hiding and say I wholeheartedly agree with you. :3

[TD]

First Video:

vs Arakune: I have no advice to give you here. I thought you did really well. Nice burst bait.

vs Ragna: 8:04 I didn't know 5C had that much stun on normal block for you to be able to block a DP straight after. That was cool. Again I thought you did really well.

vs Hakumen: Again nice burst baits. The only thing I'll say here is that you could do a much better combo from a CH 236D with stock.

CH 236D - 5CC - 623C - 214A(w) - 214D - 2CC - IAD JCC(delay) - 5B - 2CC - 236B - 214B -22B for about 4.3k I think. It has good corner carry too and funny enough it's the combo I mentioned to BatousaiJ.

Alternatively you could use CH 236C - 6CC - 623C - 214A(w) - 623C - J236A(w) - J214D if you have them near the corner. If not you may have to end it there since doing 236D again will severely prorate the combo.

Second Video:

vs Ragna: Nice stuff

vs Hak: Great stuff.

TD stop trollin' and just main da girl .-.

Ahaha, thanks. I tried to play as safe as I could though I kknow that could clearly use some work. That combo will be noted. I wasnt exactly sure what I should be doing after 236d, but that helps alot.

Lol i'm really going to try and get better with her and not troll a la cs1 because she really is simple and fun to play. Not to mention, actually good.

Not too much advice here either - especially at neutral, your air/ground footsies are well above mine, so I've got nothing to talk to on that point. You may want to explore throwing out 214D to beat out pokes, but that's about all I can think of.

From the first Ragna match, as best as I can tell, you got lucky not getting DP'd in the face those couple of times - 5CC is absolutely punishable by ID if it's done on time. Basically, you should never just stop a string on 5C or 5CC - always charge cancel it if you don't do anything else; There's really no disadvantage that can ascertain to doing so.

I noticed you RC'd 6B a couple of times, and I'm...not entirely sure about that. It shouldn't be necessary for pressure, though it does make it tighter, and as a starter, I'm not sure rapiding it to go into 2B > stuff gains you a meaningful amount of damage overall. I'm not going to say don't do it, but you might want to evaluate why you do it.

Hakumen match it seemed like you could have added throws into your pressure game a little more - towards the end of the 2nd round, you had some midscreen pressure going on, and mixing in a throw there seems like it would have worked well. It seems like in general you only threw on people's wakeup, though I did see one pressure throw in the 2nd Hakumen match, so... yeah.

Very nice!

I will most certainly be careful from now on. My pressure with tsu is really stale atm (5bb 2bb 5cc 6b with small variations), because I havent gone too in depth with her frame data or tricks yet.

Here's the thing with 6b. It's +1, and I abuse it alot out of habit to restart pressure. I tend to overthink sometimes and get blown up by something else; in this case I figured my opponents would not be expecting any more high/lows after 6b so I rc and go for a relatively safe high/low/crossup, since I know 6b will be blocked. Only the high seems to work well, most people just block low anyway.

And yes lol. I do only throw on wakeup now, it's a strange habit I picked up from playing zeth. That will be noted and fixed.

@dusk, yeah, sadly I cant record on a whim so I have to depend on the kindness of others in order to get the vids up. I just try to get what I can and be grateful lol.

I will try to stay on the ground more as well. I should try to play matches without jumping in neutral at all- it would help with playing Rachel too.

Big TY guys :D

[Airk]

I will try to stay on the ground more as well. I should try to play matches without jumping in neutral at all- it would help with playing Rachel too.

Big TY guys :D

I'm not entirely sure this is a good idea. If you watch a lot of the higher end Japanese players, they jump around a LOT; The thing is that by not jumping, you are severely limiting the ways in which you can move in neutral, and essentially ceding the air game to your opponent. Tsubaki's air to air isn't great, and she has a lot of trouble CHASING opponents into the air, but if she's there first, or if she's just moving through the air to force them to use other attack vectors, then it can definitely be to her advantage, particularly if you can move in unpredictable fashions.

I think this is actually my BIGGEST failing in this game right now is my inability to use double jumps and airdashes in an unpredictable way to get in and dodge/bait anti-air attacks. I come from a long history of games with a much more traditional air movement model, so the extent of me using this stuff right now is like...jump forward > forward air dash. I almost never double jump in an intelligent way (I can use it in combos! :P) or do tricky stuff like jumpback > forward air dash, or jump forward >neutral jump. And I'm starting to really feel like I suffer for it. Watch some of Konan's matches, or some of the recent Norisuke stuff and you'll see them jumping and airdashing a lot in neutral, and I think they're onto something. Tsubaki has pretty good air-to-ground with j.C and j.CC, the latter definitely being part of her 'tricky stuff' so I definitely feel like staying on the ground all the time in neutral is bad. The time you don't want to jump, generally, is when your opponent already has - unless you're in position to nab them with an air throw, which definitely seems like Tsubaki's best air-to-air tool (leads to nice damage too.)

[LunarSelenia]

I guess it's that time again:

[link]

Putting myself on the chopping block again. Need more things to improve. Solar's getting better X__X;;;

[Kiba]

I guess it's that time again:

[link]

Putting myself on the chopping block again. Need more things to improve. Solar's getting better X__X;;;

There isn't much I have to say. Those were good matches.

You need to change Solar's pattern though. Solar is using 6C - 5D ALOT. You can punish with 236C if that's the case,but to make it easier it'll require you to IB 6C. When you start doing this Solar will change the gatling to 6C - SoD for example in which case you could IB 6C and backdash (depending on distance, if you're too close the SoD will catch your backdash).

Also at 8:37 just to be on the safe side you could've ended it quicker. 5BB - 5CC - RC - dash 5BB - 5CC - 236236C for a finish.

How are you now with DP whiff combos?

Edited August 19, 2011 by Kiba

[Airk]

Your overall play seems pretty solid, so I'm just going to pick out some situations I saw where you would have benefitted from a different decision.

Kiba is spot on about 6C > Stein placement thing. This is definitely punishable.

If Mu is holding an SoD, that's an almost free 214B/D for you - 214B goes invulnerable after 8 frames, so unless Mu releases SoD BEFORE you input the 214B, you'll be invulnerable by the time it comes out (SoD comes out 8 frames after button release.). This could trade if she lets go late with just the right timing. 214D is invulnerable after 10 frames, so could theoretically trade if she anticipates when you throw it out, but is invulnerable until hit, so if it gets going, you're good. Both lead into a fairly solid combo, so it's probably a good gamble sometimes. You want to prevent Mu from holding SoD if possible, because if she can't hold it for the 15 or whatever frames to get it to level 3, it's quite unsafe.

Similarly, you have to threaten fullscreen stein placements. PARTICULARLY if you have a charge stocked. 236C or 236C > 214D, or at least, dash in and cancel to barrier. You cannot let her get away with this.

Punish whiffed 6C; The recovery on it is monstrous and she can't cancel it if it whiffs. Plenty of time for a dash in 5B (or dash in 5C) or just a 236C if you don't feel up to the dash.

Don't dash in for a pressure reset after 5BB; You're -5 there and it's not a good idea. If you autopilot to 5BB (Don't feel bad, I do this ALL THE DAMN TIME. -_- ) then do either 2B > dash in (Still not good, but only -1), 6B > Dash in (Has a gap, but you're +1 if they block it.) or 5C > Charge Cancel > Dash in.

Don't let her get away with Tostuka Blade (the laser that bounces between steins) inside 214B range. There's a lot of startup there, so you should be able to punish with something (214B/D is a decent choice.)

Be careful pushing buttons on wakeup if you're under a stein. That explosion is hurty and bad.

Midscreen combo-wise, 5BB>5CC>236A>214A>22A is okay, but I suspect adding 2BB in betwee 5BB and 5CC here will add damage and carry for zero charges. Also, a couple of times you had a charge and didn't use it midscreen, so keep aware of when you have charge. (As far as I'm concerned, it's virtually always worth spending one charge for the corner carry.)

More 214D in general if you can. This stuffs the annoying lighting ball projectile on reaction if you're in range.

If you have an okay-ish read on your opponent, starting the round against Mu with 236C will beat backdashes and IAD backdashes and suchlike and put her on the defensive right away. You can often even do it on reaction (Start the round blocking and if you see her move back in any way, 236C) It is desirable to try to condition Mu to not start the round by running away.

I liked your 5B anti-air > 3C reset thing in the corner.

If you hit with 5B(B) at a range where you feel you're too far away to gatling into something, don't just STOP. 22A at the least, but ideally 236D or 22D.

More 2C anti-air would be good. So would more counter assaults. Also, I cried in the third round of the last match when you landed two 5Bs and didn't confirm either one. =(

[Errol]

just going to write everything I can think of. Obviously, this was just a couple matches.. you probably know a lot of what I am going to write, but just in case.. at least some of it might serve to be a reminder.

22d corner> learn the 6cc>623C>236Awhiff>214D combo. This combo hurts so much, you can get basically 6k off 2 charges.. Even in the loketest, this should be a pretty doable combo (no 6cc, but the 623C,236a whiff is alive and well)

if you are hitting them in the corner, don't do a BBB (236b>214b>22b) ender. do 22c>5c>2c> then do the BBB ender.

6a combos> in the corner, don't do the midscreen combo. instead do 6a>5cc>6b>22c>6c>BBB ender. more damage, more untechable time. Or dp whiff.

Like kiba said, you can use RC to eke out extra damage for kills. the 5bb>5cc>RC thing works, but you have to be on the ball. 5bb>5cc>22c>RC>dash6c>BBB ender is easier and gives a ton of corner carry. Still less daamge than dp whiff.

If I remember correctly, you seemed to charge after a knockdown a lot, not only giving up oki but also not even threatening it. You can bait DPs if you need to.

Use the unblockable more.

Reset your combos some. Reset into the unblockable too.

If you notice you're getting a 2cc hit on the ground, you can follow into 5cc and do a combo (a pretty strong one at that).

Long range 6a - well, I would try to minimize this, but you seem to do 5cc here and not follow with 6b. TBH, you're better off autopiloting here. 5c misses, but 5cc gets blocked, and 6b here will serve you well. You can easily go back in for more pressure, or punish DP attempts with 6bb if it comes to it.

Reset pressure with 6b more. Punish attempts to DP 6b with doing charge cancels instead, or gatling to 5cc. e.g. 5c>6b vs 5cc, 5cc>6b vs 5cc>charge cancel. You can also try to punish mashing with 22x for a beefy CH IAD combo.

Important thing to remember with resetting pressure is you have to mix it up. it's really easy to end up autopiloting. You can reset after 5bb, or throw after 5bb. Sometimes the best place to reset is the place that doesn't seem like the best. 2b and 6b are the easy places to reset, but they're also the most obvious. if you do 5bb>2b or 5bb>5c 95% of the time, a reset after 5bb is most likely going to work despite the large frame disadvantage.

Consider occasional 6c>jump cancel in block strings too.

236C is good, use it at least a bit.

max range 5b> think I saw this not followed up a couple times. If you have enough charge, consider throwing out 22d. it might get blocked, in which case you're at +3. if not, you can 236D for a nice combo. in one instance I saw, she 5c'd immediately after. Should be able to get a 22c CH here.

Edited August 19, 2011 by Errol

[Airk]

22d corner> learn the 6cc>623C>236Awhiff>214D combo. This combo hurts so much, you can get basically 6k off 2 charges.. Even in the loketest, this should be a pretty doable combo (no 6cc, but the 623C,236a whiff is alive and well)

Can you spell out this combo?

PK? Can you add this combo to the compilation once Errol writes it out in full? It seems like a crucial one to have in there.

[Errol]

22d> 6cc> 623c>j236a(w)>214d>5c>2cc>IAD>JCC>5b>2cc>22c>5c>2c>236b>214b>22b> DD if desired

Edited August 19, 2011 by Errol

[Rhiya]

Worthwhile note -- for that combo, it's 5c(w)c on some charas and just 5c on others. It's only 5C on Rachel, but Jin is 5c(w)c, for example.

[pktazn]

22d> 6cc> 623c>236a(w)>214d>5c>2cc>IAD>JCC>5b>2cc>22c>5c>2c>236b>214b>22b> DD if desired

That's supposed to be j.236A(w) > j.214D right?

[LunarSelenia]

Oh god wow, there are actually a few things I didn't know about.

@Kiba: I hardly use Rapids unless I did something stupid, I'll take it into consideration. The 236C option is going to help me a lot. Did not know about that.

I still suck at it, I can't get it consistently, I'm inputting things waaaaay too fast and get just 623C. Or I get the 623C > j.214A and get the dash wrong >.<;; I'm still working on it. I just don't get too much training time atm, got a lot of things in life eating up my time. I'm determined to get it though >.<;;

@Airk: Wow a lot of info to learn, thanks ~

and yeah, I know about the 3 5Bs, this was the last set for the night, so I decided to post my most recent match (we recorded around 4-5 sets with around 5 matches each, but I only posted one) it was around 1AM was starting to fall asleep a bit...I kinda felt bad for finishing our set on that @___@;; but thanks a lot. Probably going to write everything down and review and all.

I forgot about 2C AA to be honest >>;;; I know it's good, but I don't know why I don't use it more.

@Errol: Thanks for pointing out some of my fail pressure and the options that.... didn't cross my mind at all. Thanks for some combos too >>;; Half the time I autopilot combos because my brain will go to the first combo that works in my head >>;; Long range 6A was a mistake. I don't usually make that mistake but it was a common input randomly thrown out at times which wasn't good ._.;; Oh well what happens, I'll deal.

Thank you all very much!

<3

[Errol]

That's supposed to be j.236A(w) > j.214D right?

yes

[Errol]

re: long range 6a. Yeah it's better not to do at all. But we're not perfect, so it helps to recognize a mistake and recover. in this case, I think you recognized the 6a>5c didn't combo and stopped. but if do it as normal, the 5cc ends up blocked and you can gatling into 6b. Most people either get hit and/or you let back into pressure. I know, that is because I do this too :P.

I never drop an IAD combo because I hit with a 2cc too low, for example. I'd either 236D, or maybe I'd just at least go directly into 236b214b22b.. that's an easy to notice thing that you can correct to some degree. autopilot sucks, heh. I end up autopiloting 5bb>2bb>5cc>dp whiff, works pretty well actually.. unless you have extra charge that you could burn.

[Daedron]

If you want to use a DP whiff combo, just use 623C - j.214C instead of j.214A, if you do it fast enough you'll land directly under your opponent to pick them up with 2CC, no dash involved.

Then again, you might be using the dash as a way to time your 2CC, so you will have to experiment what works best for you. Also cancelling with j.214C doesn't work in the corner.

[SolarMisae]

Oh, just note she doesn't use the unblockable setup on me cause I've gotten pretty decent at DPing my way out of it. Though it'd probably be advisable to feint it to try and bait my DP in that case. Definitely stop respecting my pressure so much, and like they said don't let me get away with stuff, particularly charged SoD. If you're gonna just let me do it, I'll full charge it and take two primers. And yes, me whiffing 6C is a big punish for you. It's a terrible move on whiff. (Me whiffing it usually means a fucked up DD, DP, or I just misjudged my range...^^; )

Learn to IB and punish my strings, Mu's pressure isn't very scary, but it is dangerous. IB'ing and punishing her stuff will make her a bit wary to approach you. Tsubaki's speed can make stuff difficult for Mu, cause keeping her out is hard. Don't let her set stuff up. Without steins the match would be in your favor...so do whatever you can to stop her from getting them out. Stay on dat ass is all I can say lol.

But you're definitely doing better, keep at it and you'll make me look freeeee~