[CS1-CSE] Tsubaki Self-Improvement and Critique Thread

[Airk]

Thanks for all your your help, I am so proud to be a Tsubaki main

Tsubaki forums are the best community on Dustloop.

[Iza]

I guess I should just post the match here so everyone knows what we talking about lol

Rare footage Init (Just go to 10 mins, Im up on the next set)

Note: I was using a PS3 pad so im not used to it which is why my DP shiff stuff never came out after like 5CC and 6B

[BeaverDeity]

I guess I should just post the match here so everyone knows what we talking about lol

Rare footage Init (Just go to 10 mins, Im up on the next set)

Note: I was using a PS3 pad so im not used to it which is why my DP shiff stuff never came out after like 5CC and 6B

Who are those commentators? They should learn to respect the pad

Also I noticed you were doing a lot of empty 236D, which is good for catching them by surprise sometimes but once you use it maybe once or twice, people will start to block it. So I wouldn't recommend using it as much as you were in that match. If you hitconfirm a 236D though, go straight into the combo. There's no purpose in going for the 6A reset when you can just finish the initial combo which would do virtually the same damage as the reset (without charges) and you could charge afterwards anyway.

I'd type more but I'll be back in a while

[HajinShinobi]

Who are those commentators? They should learn to respect the pad

Also I noticed you were doing a lot of empty 236D, which is good for catching them by surprise sometimes but once you use it maybe once or twice, people will start to block it. So I wouldn't recommend using it as much as you were in that match. If you hitconfirm a 236D though, go straight into the combo. There's no purpose in going for the 6A reset when you can just finish the initial combo which would do virtually the same damage as the reset (without charges) and you could charge afterwards anyway.

I'd type more but I'll be back in a while

One of them was Kiba, who is a pad player.

Also, in regards to critiques, I'm going to paste what Kiba and myself previously stated in the other thread.

If you arent comfortable (or rather, consistent) with dp whiffs just yet, then dont worry about attempting them in actual matches (especially a tournament) until you're doing them well enough. You really could've stuck with doing the 5BB 2BB > 5CC > 236 214 22 stuff to stay consistent. It is still decent damage and it'll get you some decent charge if you decide to do so.

Focus more on playing solid rather than being flashy (not saying dp whiffs are flashy, because its solid stuff, just dont try to do them when you're not consistent with it to impress your peers).

But overall, just keep at it because you'll definitely get better the more you practice.

To Rednova:

Looking back on the matches and adding to what Hajin provided:

Be careful with blockstrings since you managed to whiff alot of stuff that went unpunished. You need to get familiar with the spacing so you can use specific normals/specials accordingly.

When you're using blockstrings it usually looks like you are unsure of what to do. Is this true? Most of your blockstrings were either delayed or random/unfocused.

Be careful with using 6A alot too. It's very easy to block on reaction, and it's also easy to react to with a 2A for instance.

In addition, try to keep 6A to a minimum if you intend to mixup with it. It really is easy to see and react to with 2A. More adapt players will punish it on reaction with something more dangerous than 2A (Ragna's ID and Jins DP are not fun to be CH'd with, same with Litchi). People can even attempt to throw you out of it if they can really predict the 6A.

The same can be said for 6B as well (well partially anyway). You cant be thrown out of it, but if the player predicts you to use 6B (normally after longer blockstrings), they'll DP it on reaction.

You can definitely mixup with 6B, but you want to do so with shorter blockstrings (5B > 6B is decent and it's +2).

Also, when you're poking with 5B and making the opponent block, YOU HAVE MANY OPTIONS at your disposal.

- 5B leads into blockstring/pressure (5BB/5B > 6B/5B 2B etc)

- 5B leads into 5B - 22X frame traps

- 5B can be charge canceled.

- 5B can be jump canceled.

- You can poke with 5B then go for a throw attempt/kara throw

- You can poke with 5B then charge cancel to go for a throw attempt/kara throw

- You can poke with 5B then IAD to the other side for a crossup

Etc etc...

Stuff I opt for when I poke with 5B at range or up close (not just from a naked 5B of course). Mix it up, make people respect it and the options you have from it. But also take into consideration to how people try to deal with it (guess). Whether they mash something out, IB it , backdash, jump away, or whatever.

[Iza]

Just gonna post what i posted in the other threads first

The thing is i've been using alot DP whiff combo's lately (Hex can confirm this), and i was more then ready to dish it out anyway but really it was just the feel of the pad that put if off, besides I want to make the best of CS2 Tsubaki before i get salty from Extend

Alright I try stop being greedy, honestly all these matches just makes me wanna switch to a stick :D

Thanks Hajin I will try to utilise these options, break the habit of mashing and try to play much safer and solid

On a side note HERE a match of me getting blown up by Hex but i was happy to even take 1 point :D

Im actually not proud to say I can DP whiff better on a 360 pad than a PS3 pad

EDIT: Also lately Ive been getting messages saying nice/good Tsubaki :D

Edited November 10, 2011 by Iza

[LunarSelenia]

I think most of the commentators/Beaver/Hajin said most of the things I wanted to say, I'll just add a bit more.

-Adding on to what Beaver said:

236D is most useful for getting out of that corner. Used at the right time of course. Tsubaki has some but not reliable options to get out of the corner, but for one stock, you can get out of the corner and get a combo and put them into the corner.

Don't use 6A afterwards, I think it's been said but I believe it'll turn into a force tech if you use it. But I'd rather slip it in to reset people or in midblockstring since it'll be harder to react to. (TBH people are starting to block points where I like to slip in 6A so I have to start mixing it up a bit ^^;; ) You can always do:

236D > 5BB > 5CC > 236A > 214A > 22A

-As for what Hajin said:

I agree with the whole comfort > stylish thing. I can do DP whiffs but I choose not to due to the fact that I hope from setup to setup and different lag really throws me off so I'm wary of doing it in tournaments. ESPECIALLY at tournaments, you want to have a sense of solid, comfortable play....only because if you get blown up for being stylish, rewatch it and realize you could've won a round by doing a more optimal combo....that sucks (and believe me, I've done it before X__X;; )

-Also Tsubaki's combos, as well as her optimal gameplay should be sending people in the corner. So long as you have the stock and the right situation, you can usually ALWAYS send people to corner even from the other corner.

-It's not that amazing, or reliable because it's a risk/reward thing and might trade, I usually 623A > j.236A > j.214A > j.D people when they decide to run in after a combo. It usually gives me some time to breathe and charge. BE CAREFUL when you use it, sometimes it's better to just block at times.

-As for charging, I know it's been said that you got greedy about it, the only thing I want to add is that you can hold 5D a BIT longer on the tap, you can get more charge stock for the recovery frames you're going to get by using 5D.

-I think in the second match you used 22C > 236D pickup > dash 5C I think? I don't know the conditions of when it works and when it doesn't, maybe someone can elaborate, but usually the 2CC will whiff. ESPECIALLY on Makoto because her hitbox is similar to Mu's = higher than the other characters in the air. So it's not worth using the 22C > dash pickup unless it's off of a 22D. It gives you room to breathe to charge by pushing them away, and you get to keep your charge =3

-Try to use some 5A, if they block it, you can always go into 5B > blockstrings, I know Hajin elaborated on that. I know this is one of my weak points that I have to improve on, but I tend to spend time solely for blockstrings more than combos (sadly though, it doesn't mean those blockstrings will end up in my actual play XD)

I hope this helps, this is just a bit of my observation, I don't know if it's already been said or not (if it is I'm sorry X__X;; ) but I hope to see more footage again of your improvement~

[Kiba]

The same can be said for 6B as well (well partially anyway). You cant be thrown out of it

Actually she can be thrown out of it. With that said, she can also be thrown out of 6C and 6A.

-I think in the second match you used 22C > 236D pickup > dash 5C I think? I don't know the conditions of when it works and when it doesn't, maybe someone can elaborate, but usually the 2CC will whiff. ESPECIALLY on Makoto because her hitbox is similar to Mu's = higher than the other characters in the air. So it's not worth using the 22C > dash pickup unless it's off of a 22D. It gives you room to breathe to charge by pushing them away, and you get to keep your charge =3

22C - 236D - Dash 5C - 2CC - 236B - 214B - 22B works if the starter was 22C. The only advantage that has is that it pushes the opponent into the corner quicker. It's mediocre at best, and I wouldn't completely advise it depending on player/character knowledge, but even I use it ocassionally.

If it's used in the middle of a combo, following with 236D - 5C into stuff can allow a tech. The best you can do is:

stuff - 236D - DD and even then I wouldn't recommend it since I find that to be a waste of stock and 50% heat. There are some circumstances to consider such as pushing the opponent away from you but I do not want to make this any more complex.

Bottom line, don't use it unless it's from a 22C starter AND you want to get your opponent into the corner quicker

Edited November 11, 2011 by Kiba

[LunarSelenia]

Ah thanks for clarifying that for me Kiba =3 I used to do that until I figured out it'd always tech so I just opted for 22D > 236D all the time when I had stock X__X;;;

[HajinShinobi]

Actually she can be thrown out of it. With that said, she can also be thrown out of 6C and 6A.

Oh okay, I've never been thrown out of it and havent really seen anyone attempt to do so before so I wasnt sure. Thanks for the heads up though. Yeah, 6C is actually another move you can be thrown out of if it's predicted. So then, basically, 6A/6B/6C can be poked out with 5A/2A, DP'd, or thrown.

[Airk]

Oh okay, I've never been thrown out of it and havent really seen anyone attempt to do so before so I wasnt sure. Thanks for the heads up though. Yeah, 6C is actually another move you can be thrown out of if it's predicted. So then, basically, 6A/6B/6C can be poked out with 5A/2A, DP'd, or thrown.

You've never been thrown out of 5B>6B because Kiba is wrong - you can't. 5B is 16 frames of blockstun, 6B hits on frame 21. That's a 5 frame gap and throws are 7 frames (6 for Tager). It should not be possible to throw you out of that gatling. 6C on the other hand hits on frame 23, so there's enough room for a throw.

So to summarize:

6B can be DPed, and jabbed out by characters with 5 frame jabs (though I think it will trade).

6A and 6C can be DPed, thrown, jabbed, etc, if the opponent is looking for them. The trick, as usual, is to do different stuff so they have to watch out for all of it. 5B > 22C beats all options except DPs, but if people are mashing against your 5B, you should, er, do 5BB more, because there's no gap and it can hit them while they're trying to do the motion for the DP if they're not careful.

[Kiba]

Ah thanks for clarifying that for me Kiba =3 I used to do that until I figured out it'd always tech so I just opted for 22D > 236D all the time when I had stock X__X;;;

No problem. Anytime.

You've never been thrown out of 5B>6B because Kiba is wrong - you can't. 5B is 16 frames of blockstun, 6B hits on frame 21. That's a 5 frame gap and throws are 7 frames (6 for Tager). It should not be possible to throw you out of that gatling. 6C on the other hand hits on frame 23, so there's enough room for a throw.

So to summarize:

6B can be DPed, and jabbed out by characters with 5 frame jabs (though I think it will trade).

6A and 6C can be DPed, thrown, jabbed, etc, if the opponent is looking for them. The trick, as usual, is to do different stuff so they have to watch out for all of it. 5B > 22C beats all options except DPs, but if people are mashing against your 5B, you should, er, do 5BB more, because there's no gap and it can hit them while they're trying to do the motion for the DP if they're not careful.

Oh snap. Just triple tested it and you're right.

I thought I caught this somewhere.

[Airk]

Well, if you delayed the 6B for some reason, or just did it late 'by mistake', then there could pretty easily be room for a throw.

[Errol]

I like to do the 5b->6b 5b->6b thing when people are getting barrier happy. pretty tight, they have to predict and DP to get out (or jump/backdash..)

[AJSmith325]

Tsubaki vs Bang set

Alright guys, it's my turn to be criticized. This is a set of matches between me and Zeth. The first match isn't a real good representation of me because I was trying to get a feel for Bang and Zeth's playstyle. Also, if you see a 2CC>jCC>236A>236C it's because I messed up an IAD and had to readjust the combo. I'm aware that I need more DP whiff combos but I'm still trying to master those.

[TheGreatReptar]

Before you get into DP whiffs and IADs, you should really work on learning more optimized, simple execution combos. Like 3 times you got a 5BB>5CC>22C near the corner, then just did nothing afterwards when you could easily do 6C>236B>214B>22B and get the same hard knockdown off of of with like 500 more damage and a mess load more meter.

Your defence really needs a lot of work, and I don't mean just reacting to highs and Bang's crossup kick. Whenever you were on defence you were extraordinarily complacent. You hardly even barrier blocked. If you flip through the video quickly, the first time your barrier gauge dropped at all was at like the 6 minute mark, and that was only after he was basically trolling the shit out of you with 5A>dash x N. You're letting Zeth just run over you and he knew it. It happens again at 11:40ish, only that time you don't even barrier to get him off you, then he's got you so trained, that you just sit there and eat a command throw. Then at 7:40ish you use a tiny bit of barrier again, but it's really obvious that that was just 3 OS throw attempts. After the third one, I'm really surprised he didn't just run up and TRM you. It's good that you're using that, but tapping 1+ABC to where you barrier flashes just briefly makes it really easy to see what you're doing, and again, with as complacent as you were, if Zeth had noticed, he could have just dash>TRMed you.

And this might go against what people will normally tell you, but throw a few more shoryus in there, or try to jump out of stuff. Tell your opponent that you won't let them run over you like that and make them keep their pressure safer and make them hesitate. Sure, they might block a shoryu and you'll get punished or you'll get antiaired which trying to jump out or something, but just sitting there isn't doing you much good either. You never even try to look for openings or try to create one to get out. You sat there, which in almost every case ended up with you eating something.

Also, at 10:00 when you do confirm>236D>throw reset attempt, you should do dash up 5A or something, then do your mixup. 5A with put them in regular hitstun again instead of untechable time so they won't have the option of not teching. Then they'll be forced to either deal with the mixup or mash out a reversal. You could even dash up 5BB>2BB then do a throw after 2BB recovers I believe, which was working a lot for you.

One other thing I noticed is you were doing herp derp block strings in earlier matches like 5BB>2BB>5CC>6B all the time and Zeth would just barrier until things whiffed. You did however adjust to that in later matches and started doing shorter strings with more jabs and ending in 5B or doing 5C and charge canceling it (which is actually minus on block however, so I wouldn't do that often. Probably only use it if you're staggering 5C to 5CC a lot in case the opponent tries to mash out of the frame trap). You did however get around the problem that your blockstrings were getting blown up by barriering, so at least you learned that through the matches.

Edited November 13, 2011 by TheGreatReptar

[AJSmith325]

I realize I need to barrier block more. I just had to get use to it and plus I have some pseudo OCD where if a game puts limit on how I can use something then I use it less because I'm afraid of running out of it. I don't OS throws (notice ealier in the vid where I got a throw rejection miss) so I had actually realized at that time that I needed to use the barrier guard to create some space.

Also I completely agree on the whole complacent thing. My biggest problem is that I don't utilize Tsubaki's mobility which is really good. As for the corner combo, I kind of forgot my chargeless corner combos which is why when I got that knockdown I just opted for charge instead of doing something that might miss.

Also tried to throw some DPs out on wake up and mis-timed them which is why I would wake up and just eat a jab.

[Airk]

I only watched about the first half, but the general gist is along the lines of what Reptar said, only I'd take it a step further - you're really not doing anything to try to control the pace of the match at all. Pretty much all the matches involved maybe a little bit of jumping around at the beginning (Heck, one round you just blocked at the start, and kept on blocking pretty much until you had to burst), then you block something, and you're either blocking or getting hit for the rest of the match. Every once in a while you'd break free, but it seemed like you didn't really know what to do with the opportunity once you had it. Maybe you'd poke once or twice, and get lucky and land a combo, but it really seemed like you had no sense of how to approach the situation. I know Bang is tricky and moves around a lot, but I got a real "deer in the headlights" feel from watching this. =/

Things I can suggest, beyond "play more and learn footsies/air footsies/how to mount an offense" are:

Use more counter assaults. You were pinned in the corner with meter a lot.

Work on your 2C anti-air - while it's hard to do when being crossed up, even being able to call upon it in the corner to stop a jump in is crucial. Plus, once you start blocking the crossups, he's going to try to mix it up by attacking from the front.

Block low on wakeup if you're not going to do a reversal; I saw a couple of wakeup throws, which, honestly, even though I do them way too often, are generally a bad idea. Trying for that means that you eat any kind of meaty your opponent throws out.

[logichole]

So, this hurt.

My NWM3 singles match versus James Xie was streamed, and I got my ass handed to me. You can see the video here: http://www.twitch.tv/teamkhaos/b/299872699 at about 0h22m00s.

My first time on stream, with 64k viewers... yikes. I was nervous, unfamiliar with the Platinum matchup, and doing stupid stuff. My execution was faltering under pressure. I did get a little more level headed as the match progressed, which makes me feel a little better about it.

Things I know I did badly:

over-reliance on Tsubaki's (terrible) DPs to get out of pressure.

My 2Cs got baited mercilessly. I need to either get better at not falling for the bait or just getting out from under falling opponents. (Shades of fuzzy tail, I'd not seen the swallow moon AA bait tactic before.)

I was eating lows and overheads all day.

Mashing to recover out of hitstun got me counterhit because I wasn't paying attention.

Too much 236C(whiff) > 214D when it couldn't possibly connect.

A few positive things, I guess: I did manage to land DP > Dive whiff once, though I should have gone for the ground rekka rather than the aerial ender. I also think I had some moments where I applied some decent corner pressure.

Thoughts and advice? This is basically me playing at my worst, so I hesitate to post it but... that's why it's probably a good idea to get feedback on this match rather than any others.

[LunarSelenia]

So, this hurt.

My NWM3 singles match versus James Xie was streamed, and I got my ass handed to me. You can see the video here: http://www.twitch.tv/teamkhaos/b/299872699 at about 0h22m00s.

My first time on stream, with 64k viewers... yikes. I was nervous, unfamiliar with the Platinum matchup, and doing stupid stuff. My execution was faltering under pressure. I did get a little more level headed as the match progressed, which makes me feel a little better about it.

Things I know I did badly:

over-reliance on Tsubaki's (terrible) DPs to get out of pressure.

My 2Cs got baited mercilessly. I need to either get better at not falling for the bait or just getting out from under falling opponents. (Shades of fuzzy tail, I'd not seen the swallow moon AA bait tactic before.)

I was eating lows and overheads all day.

Mashing to recover out of hitstun got me counterhit because I wasn't paying attention.

Too much 236C(whiff) > 214D when it couldn't possibly connect.

A few positive things, I guess: I did manage to land DP > Dive whiff once, though I should have gone for the ground rekka rather than the aerial ender. I also think I had some moments where I applied some decent corner pressure.

Thoughts and advice? This is basically me playing at my worst, so I hesitate to post it but... that's why it's probably a good idea to get feedback on this match rather than any others.

I think the one important piece of advice I want to give is to get the opponent to block more. Tsubaki's DP isn't great and like you said, you had a bit of over-reliance regarding them. I think if you used them a lot less and approached with 5A/5B (or blocked on wakeup), you wouldn't have gotten punished as much for wakeup DP whiffs. Also I noticed you did 623D > j.236D in the first round and didn't have a charge to do the dive (I am not sure and I can't turn on the game to confirm this, but I think you probably can do the j.214C at least instead of falling...or was that a misinput?)

As for DPs, I don't know if you were trying to do the j.236x > j.214x after a DP (other than the semi D vers in the first match), I know you got a 623A in before and followed it up with j.214D and couldn't follow it up. I usually do 623A > j.236A > j.214A to make people GTFO and I get breathing room to charge. I also never really go for her B/C versions especially when they are approaching, I can usually catch people's rushing in with A/D versions no problem. Because of her B/C DP having weird times of invul, I try to never use it and catch people when they have a hole in their blockstring. Like at 23:10, you could have saved yourself 50% heat with a 623A and got yourself out of the corner.

Bunch of things based on my personal preference >>;; or some Plat matchup advice :

I never played against Xie's Plat but the ones I've been playing against I tend to turtle a bit and get some charge in >>;;; Sometimes I get them to come to me and I punish them =3 Don't know if this would have helped in your match.

Watch out for AA Platinum in general. I have not seen the Swallow Moon bait before, but I know trying to AA her during a falling j.C in general is risky, and sometimes will not end pretty.

You did get her to block at the end of the final match and eat a combo, too bad the 6C whiffed. Personally I think I would have tried to go for 2B/3C RC instead of the 6C > super, but eh, risk/reward is what Tsubaki is all about and we all have different ways of playing her.

I don't think I've seen you play before logic so I don't know how this differs from normal, but hopefully I helped in a bit. Sorry I would try to find more things to post just....friend is still sleeping and I can't type too much.

[logichole]

I did have a lot of mis-inputs due to nerves. A lot of dumb things I did were due to that. I have little tournament experience and it really shows in this match. I was making mistakes and doing things which are very out of character for me. This is not a video of me playing at my best.

I'm definitely working on being smarter on wakeup. Relying on DPs and rolls gets me punished way too often.

On DPs - I sometimes use 623A > j.214D so that on block or whiff, the D-dive comes out and can catch an unsuspecting opponent. This might not be a great idea, but that's what the attempt was. I pull out the B DP for the useful property that it's guaranteed to come out after 3 frames. C DP I try to catch opponents who think they are too high up to be hit.

Xie plays a really aggressive Plat - turtling seemed like a bad idea to me for this match. Given that, what I think I need to do is work on my approach with 2A/5B. Any tips on that? I've been having trouble getting in on opponents who have longer-range normals and are content to space me out, and I don't want to over-rely on 236C.

Dropping the 6C on that combo pissed me off so bad. I *never* drop that. I didn't trust myself to get the dashing 2B without dropping the dash input, so I went for the easier 6C but still failed. I've been working on my corner dashes but didn't trust my proficiency with them enough to use in a tournament situation. 3C RC is a good idea, I'll try that on for size. I am very consistent in my IAD execution.

I do think I'm in the process of levelling up my gameplay. I've had some more time for matches lately and have played against some skilled PNW players (sure beats netplay). I played about 80 matches against Veteru the other evening and for the first time won a match against his Jin. 1 in 80 doesn't sound like much, but I think it's a sign that I'm finally figuring a few things out.

[Airk]

Why do I suck? Getting a little frustrated lately. Combos seem okay - IAD is mostly in hand, though no DP-Whiff yet except for 623C > j.236A<whiff> corner stuff. But I'm getting killed on my footsies/positioning - ESPECIALLY against Ragna, who seems to comprise like 2/3rds of the people I run into online. :P I just can't seem to find a good way to handle people who jump around a lot. I know part of this is me needing to be able to confirm an AA 5B into something more impressing that 5BB > <nothing> but I don't think that can be all of it. Any advice? =/

[pktazn]

If they're jumping around a lot try AAing them with 2C instead since it may also land you a CH and then you can go into IAD combo and try air grabbing > 6CC. I haven't gone against many Ragnas lately to be honest so I can't really help there (sorry ) but I have gone against a lot of people who are jumpy and those two things usually get them.

[Airk]

If they're jumping around a lot try AAing them with 2C instead since it may also land you a CH and then you can go into IAD combo and try air grabbing > 6CC. I haven't gone against many Ragnas lately to be honest so I can't really help there (sorry ) but I have gone against a lot of people who are jumpy and those two things usually get them.

I'm okay with 2C against basic jumpins, but anything complicated like double jumps or air dash-overs or even just jumping OVER me screws me up pretty badly. =/

I have a hard time air throwing Ragna unless I predict the jump on his wakeup because j.C beats my everything, it seems. :P

[BatousaiJ]

Neutral games is mostly about recognizing dead zones and knowing when to throw out what.

2/5A, 2C , 5B, 236x and etc.

If you find it hard to pick up 5B/B in the air, goto training mode and make the computer jump and keep doing 5B > j.B > j.C > j.236A > j.214C a bunch of times.

That'll get your muscle memory to queue up for that motion when you get a anti air hit by chance.

It'll happen a lot against opponents that like trying to jump out of everything instead of blocking properly or DPing so it's worth doing.

[pktazn]

Tsubaki's 2C should be able to beat Ragna's j.C iirc but again I haven't played against Ragna recently so I'm not too certain. If they tend to double jump I say try waiting a little before trying to hit them with 2C since they may also be trying for a cross-up but Tsubaki should auto-correct to whichever direction they're in when you use it.

Sorry I can't be more help past that though.