[CSE] Hakumen Q & A: New players check here first

[onemic]

Thanks

I also noticed that for the first BnB listed in the combo thread, it differs from the video and the notation given.

[starter] > Renka (1) > Kishuu, 2C > j.B > j.2A, AD j.B > j.A, 2C > j.B > j.2A, AD j.2A, j.C

is the one in the combo thread, while the accompanying video and notation is:

[starter] ＞ Renka(1 ) ＞ Kishuu, 66 2c ＞ j.B ＞ j.2a, AD j.B ＞ j.A, 2c ＞ sj.2a, AD j.2a, j.C

I've been practicing the combo thread notation for a very long time(Off and on for a few months) and could never get the 3rd j.B to connect. Should I try the video notation instead, as based on where the dummy ends up after AD j.B > j.A, 2C, it seems like it makes much more sense to super jump and 2a rather than a regular j.B again which always whiffs clean by a fairly wide margin.

[dioxideUniversa]

1 star combo paths without an air hit are very basic and anything that links into gurren on the ground is basically your only option, though you can go straight to 3C from a 5a CH or 5b CH and it will link for meterless

5a CH > 6a, 5a > 5b > Gurren > 3c is 1468

5b CH > 5a > 5a > 5n > Gurren > 3c is 1632

2a CH > 2a > 5a > 5a > 5b > Gurren > 3c is 1278

there are simpler paths than these of course\

EDIT: I made a post very early on in the thread about that combo notation and the third j.B is extraneous in that situation; it is rather difficult to land that j.B with that combo path, so yes, use the video notation without the j.B

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?13856-CSE-Hakumen-Combo-Thread/page3&p=1302070&viewfull=1#post1302070 it is the bottom of this post

the only situation where you would use a third j.B like that would be if you were going AD, j.B > j.A > 5c > Kishuu > 2c > j.B > j.2a, AD j.2a, j.C

Edited June 6, 2013 by dioxideUniversa

[mAc Chaos]

Wait really? I do that j.B combo in like every single match. Are you sure?

Let me try that in training mode...

[dioxideUniversa]

it's possible but it's difficult for beginners (as evidenced by the fact that i posted about not being able to do it at the time of the combo thread's making)

it also really depends on who you're fighting

Edited June 6, 2013 by dioxideUniversa

[Ctrlaltwtf]

What combo are we talking about exactly? Full notation-wise.

[mAc Chaos]

It's the normal j.B j.A combo except there's a j.B after the second 2C.

Anyway I had some trouble too, I remember now I've been ommitting the second j.B myself during matches. Most of the combos I use are based on ease of execution and reliability rather than squeezing out optimal damage.

But these guides are supposed to have the optimal ones...

[dioxideUniversa]

[starter] > Renka (1) > Kishuu, 66 2C > j.B > j.2A, AD j.B > j.A, 2C > j.B > j.2A, AD j.2A, j.C

the spacing for this is strict for getting the third, underlined j.B and omitting it greatly reduces the difficulty of the combo. it's also a lot easier to cross under on some characters than others with the j.B (easy on hakumen, can't get it to work on lambda,) and crossing under defeats the purpose of the corner carry

and the combo thread has a lot of non optimal combos, rofl

Edited June 6, 2013 by dioxideUniversa

[mAc Chaos]

I edited the combo OP to mention dropping j.B if necessary.

The non optimal combos are in the large combo list which are for different situations / meter gain / etc. But the BnBs should be optimal ideally.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

Oh, I suppose I'm the wrong person to ask about that then because I go for:

[starter] > Renka (1) > Kishuu > 66 2C > jB > j2A > AD jB > jA > 5C > 2C > jB > j2A > AD j2A > [ender]

[onemic]

Wow, thanks for the help guys. Things should be much easier now.

All these months I've been trying to practice that combo with no success whatsoever, and I could've just taken out that j.B....The difficulty of that combo actually made me drop Hakumen for Valkenhayn, because I thought that Hakumen's execution requirements were though the roof based on me never being able to get that combo once.(testing on Jin)

Are any of the other BnB's like that at all?

Edited June 6, 2013 by onemic

[mAc Chaos]

Well now I feel stupid.

For the main BnBs that should cover it. Hakumen's combos are basically all the same route, except through tons of different starters. As long as you get the mid screen combo down, and the corner version, you should be fine. Then it's just a matter of being able to turn all of your random hits into the combo.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

Are any of the other BnB's like that at all?

When you do Gurren wallbounce > IAD jB > etc. it's the same story.

For instance CH 3C > 2B > Gurren > stuff

Also, what mAc said. Haku-men's combos don't get very complicated. As a plus his stuff is very reliable and works on pretty much everyone with little problems.

Except trying to j2A > j5C on Jin

[mAc Chaos]

Actually, this combo here:

(3) [starter] > Renka (1) > Gurren > IAD j.B > j.A, 5C, 2C > sj.B > j.2A, AD j.B > j.2A, j.C

If you wanted to make it easier, drop that first 5C.

Actually if you wanted to make it real simple:

(3) [starter] > Renka (1) > Gurren > IAD j.B > j.A, 2C > sj.B > j.2A, AD j.2A, j.C

[mAc Chaos]

You should also get the 623AA combo down.

[dioxideUniversa]

Oh, I suppose I'm the wrong person to ask about that then because I go for:

[starter] > Renka (1) > Kishuu > 66 2C > jB > j2A > AD jB > jA > 5C > 2C > jB > j2A > AD j2A > [ender]

this combo will not work on characters like arakune or makoto without the kishuu between 5c and 2c however (the last j.B whiffs)

Except trying to j2A > j5C on Jin

hazama is worse

Edited June 6, 2013 by dioxideUniversa

[onemic]

Well now I feel stupid.

For the main BnBs that should cover it. Hakumen's combos are basically all the same route, except through tons of different starters. As long as you get the mid screen combo down, and the corner version, you should be fine. Then it's just a matter of being able to turn all of your random hits into the combo.

lol, no worries. Im just happy I finally found a way I can complete the damn thing. :D It's still gonna take me a while probably, because now I have to learn how to do 2C>sj.2A, which is awkward as fuck to do.

Looking at the combos beyond the BnB's, it does seem like alot of Hakumens combos are based on him getting either a CH or an AA

You should also get the 623AA combo down.

That's the Anti air one right?

Edited June 6, 2013 by onemic

[dioxideUniversa]

it doesn't really function as an anti-air due to how far it moves you foward (though you could plausibly use it as such vs. like a hakumen j.Cing you i suppose)

mainly for the purpose of the present discussion, 623aa is a 2-star combo option and has been hakumen's traditional BnB since BBCT

[starter] > 623aa > falling j.2c > 2c > (s)j.2a, AD j.2a, j.C http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Qcw8STGjRw

this combo is also the topic of this thread: http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?13874-CSE-FOR-BEGINNERS-Hakumen-BnB-Combo-Tutorial-Video

Looking at the combos beyond the BnB's, it does seem like alot of Hakumens combos are based on him getting either a CH or an AA

there are a few options, though not a lot of videos for them. for ground CH it does not really matter much except for 3c combos which require a CH to work. however, sometimes you can hitconfirm CH j.B or j.2c especially into a ground combo by linking to 5c (and to a lesser extent 2c)

for anti air, 2C you can simply go sj.2a, AD j.2a etc.

on counterhit you can go 2c > falling j.2c > 5c > Kishuu, 2c > j.b > j.2a, AD j.B etc. (this is the current CSE bnb combo route)

you can also do 5c > Kishuu, 2c on some AA hits

on a 5C AA counterhit you an usually do CH 5c, 5c > CSE bnb

6a AA counterhit leads to gurren combos

here are some AA example videos we do have prepared:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr8vAr93-WY 5a CH > j.2a also works, but the hitconfirm into ground is better

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9O2XQL7NGbs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TazuSEJYbkc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fd8hSonBdng

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GweLo3dP294

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVb91o5NNPg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXgLoe_BKzE any hotaru combo technically counts as an AA

all of these videos and more are found on my channel

EDIT: also i made this post about 2c > sj.2a

Edited June 7, 2013 by dioxideUniversa

[Saeor12]

This might be an ambiguous question or posted somewhere already but, what are some of Haku's more common frame traps? I have been trying to step up my pressure and it would help to be able to identify.

[mAc Chaos]

Pretty much anything, because almost everything he does has gaps in it. You can also turn a move into a frame trap by canceling into a special usually, or delaying the next move.

Generally stuff like 2A > 2B or 2B > 2A will work, or 6A > 2B.

The key is to have things that won't leave you vulnerable afterwards. For instance, all your As and Bs are pretty safe, so you can do that without worrying about getting punished. All of your C moves can be canceled into a special to cover your back too, except 3C. (And with C moves you leave yourself wide open if you don't cancel into another move.)

[Saeor12]

Thanks Mac. Just seems like i always lose to mashing whenever I play my friends ;_;

[Wander]

All of your C moves can be canceled into a special to cover your back too, except 3C.

6C also. (but you can yukikaze after 6C against stuff like bang's teleport)

[mAc Chaos]

Thanks Mac. Just seems like i always lose to mashing whenever I play my friends ;_;

What strings do you use? Don't just blindly hit buttons. Be aware of what you're doing. So tell me what strings you normally use.

You could try watching some match videos too and see what people do and take those ideas.

[Saeor12]

I usually do something along the lines of 2B, stagger 2A and then either try to kishuu back in or 6A and get mashed out of. But if i have meter, I like to throw in renka(1), kishuu mid string to beat out the mashing.

And i always seem to forget about Gurren in block strings.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Saeor12

[dioxideUniversa]

gurren is +1, repeats pressure for 1 star, catches hasty backdashes into a cheap combo, and if they are disrespecting the +1 or they IB'ed it can special cancel into renka for a frame trap (which also catches backdashes,) kishuu into strike/throw mixup or TRM, zantetsu into overhead etc.

tl;dr use it

[BladeOfJustice7]

Thanks Mac. Just seems like i always lose to mashing whenever I play my friends ;_;

Are they standing and mashing or crouching and mashing?

What strings do you use? Don't just blindly hit buttons. Be aware of what you're doing. So tell me what strings you normally use.

You could try watching some match videos too and see what people do and take those ideas.

Yes pay attention to when your opponent wants to press buttons. Hakumen is the worst character to press buttons on when you're on the defensive.

I usually do something along the lines of 2B, stagger 2A and then either try to kishuu back in or 6A and get mashed out of. But if i have meter, I like to throw in renka(1), kishuu mid string to beat out the mashing.

Hakumen's normals (apart from his sword normals) are all safe on block, which makes it hard for your opponent to mash out of his pressure without eating a CH when done properly. Most opponents crouch and block so I usually just use 6b more once I see they're mashing or pay attention to when they want to mash buttons.

Kishuu in the middle of pressure should be used sparingly since it eats up stars whenever you do it.

If I personally see my opponent is good at teching grabs, and I want a grab or to throw off their defensive momentum I go for 2a>kishuu>grab. Otherwise 6b is usually enough to throw off people's momentum or stagger 2a>tick throw.

I could go on and on about this but let me know if you or anyone else wants me to expand specific things I stated above.

EDIT: Guren does anything good for me, I guess it's because Montreal doesn't backdash :/

Edited June 18, 2013 by BladeOfJustice7