Shaffler Posted October 19, 2010 Posted October 19, 2010 You know, I've always wondered why you called her Chewy or Chewbacci. Is there a specific reason? Well, the reason behind it is that if you say "Tsubaki" with a strong Tagalog/Filipino accent from how it's read, it sounds like "Chewbacci". Thus, I've gone and started using the nickname. Also, I use it for shits and giggles and to avoid confusion with Hakumen's move. Now, I'm on a quest to spread the word and let it be an uncommonly-used nickname. I only started using Chewy after I got too lazy to type "Chewbacci" or when I'm using it as sort of an adjective. Chewy players, Chewy fangirl, Chewy mainers...etc.
Zippi Posted October 19, 2010 Posted October 19, 2010 I actually once heard Hazama's sentence "Tsubaki chuui" as "Chewbacci Chewy". It cracked me up.
Slayer Alucard Posted October 21, 2010 Posted October 21, 2010 Yea, Tsubaki has no oki. The best position you could be in with her is a distance where you can charge after a 22X sends them away, or ending an air combo with one air dash still stocked to have a safe air charge and to stay on the opponent still after a charge
pktazn Posted October 21, 2010 Posted October 21, 2010 Yea, Tsubaki has no oki. Does anybody have oki in BB? Like, real oki? I know there's probably a few characters who kinda have oki and I'm not trying to argue anything, I'm just curious.
Rhiya Posted October 21, 2010 Posted October 21, 2010 Does anybody have oki in BB? Like, real oki? I know there's probably a few characters who kinda have oki and I'm not trying to argue anything, I'm just curious. Ragna has 22C, and I think there's one or two other options on other characters like Jin's 236C. Oh, there's also Litchi's ridiculous supers. But yeah, iirc, very few people get oki beyond basic mixup after an untechable knockdown.
killatrooper Posted October 21, 2010 Posted October 21, 2010 Oh btw, the j.214X moves are techable before they hit the ground so...it's not a real knockdown hahaha. Not if used at a low enough height. In the combos I posted, they do result in a knockdown (just tested myself). Although I agree Tsubaki's oki is a joke. xP I'm saying I'd never use And I said I didn't tell you to use. o.o when there are better options. Getting knockdown off 22C and then doing wakeup pressure will do so much more damage if it succeeds that there's no point. Even dropping the combo and doing a tick throw/cc>dash>throw gets a better reward. And if we're talking kills, then you could tack on a super after that 22D and have everything turn out fine (it's not like Tsubaki burns tons of meter, so it wouldn't be that weird to have 50 heat by the end of the match). Basically, continuing into that 2.6k combo isn't worth it. Hell, the point of the combo is for when you screw up. It's not practical at all. I'd like to point out that any damage is important damage for hatgirl, and that potential 5k total is much better than the guaranteed 2.6k. So basically you think the 2.6k combo is impractical, which I already agreed to myself. Ok then. And @ pktazn, I'm pretty sure Litchi's staff during corner combos would be considered good oki. But I have another question, is punishing tech rolls/quick getups not a part of oki? Because I'm pretty sure every char has a way to accomplish that.
Rhiya Posted October 21, 2010 Posted October 21, 2010 And I said I didn't tell you to use. o.o So basically you think the 2.6k combo is impractical, which I already agreed to myself. Ok then. We're basically questioning why you posted it if you knew if was impractical. But I have another question, is punishing tech rolls/quick getups not a part of oki? Because I'm pretty sure every char has a way to accomplish that. Maybe it's an overload of Melty, but that falls under a separate category labeled "tech punish" in my head.
pktazn Posted October 21, 2010 Posted October 21, 2010 Ahhh, okay thanks. Yea Litchi was the only one I could think of off the top of my head. @killatrooper: From the way I learned it, oki means a wake-up game so it's the mix-up options you have when an opponent is getting up after you knock them down and try to keep them down. Like, if your opponent is on the ground and they guess right what you're going to do then they won't get damaged but if they guess wrong they take damage and may be on the ground again. Obviously, there's more to it than just that but that's the basic idea. Punishing tech rolls/quick getups are a bit different. If I'm wrong in anything I've said please feel free to correct me that's just what I always thought it was considering I mained Millia in GG so yeaaaaa...
Rorshock520 Posted October 21, 2010 Posted October 21, 2010 Beware: Cool Story Bro ahead... Okay so here's something I thought was sort of awesome. My friend knows I'm a Tsubaki fanboy, and I was feeling sick so she gave me this plushie (is it a plushie?) that she made in a box that said "Get well soon!" It made me happy. http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/4424/maiwaifuf.jpg (Big picture)
killatrooper Posted October 21, 2010 Posted October 21, 2010 We're basically questioning why you posted it if you knew if was impractical. Like I said at the beginning of the first post, because I liked the combos and thought they were fun. I didn't say "here are some new BnB I found", I said "here are some combos I like" and shared them. And then you started confusing me and telling me things I already knew. Plus you categorized all of them as useless when I could only see the 3rd one being so. @pktazn Ehh, that's basically the gist of what I got the first time I looked up okizeme. What I hear when I read that is "Oki is when you guess their wake up option right and damage them for it" (punish their tech...). Which is why I'm still not sure I understand. Is it that "wake-up game" only applies to neutral techs, and the rest is in it's own category?
Amadeus46Art Posted October 21, 2010 Posted October 21, 2010 While we're on the topic on arts relating to Tsubaki, I might as well post my drawing of Holy Order Tsubaki/PK's avatar: herp derp huge drawing Yeaaaaaaaah I should stop posting here :V
pktazn Posted October 21, 2010 Posted October 21, 2010 Well this is the definition I found on okizeme because I'm too stupid to word it myself lol. I honestly don't know how to describe it myself but I can see it when it happens In general, Okizeme begins when a player knocks their opponent off of their feet. While on the ground, the opponent has several possible options (depending upon the game) including just getting up, rolling away/towards before getting up, rising with an attack, or a combination (i.e. rolling away/towards and rising with an attack). The player still standing will attempt to attack the opponent usually by countering their rising attack, allowing them to combo their opponent or, preferrably, knock them over again, thus keeping their advantage. In addition, the opponent does not react in time, the standing player can attack their opponent with a pounce attack, or certain types of low attacks for additional damage. In most 2D Fighting Games, because the grounded opponent cannot be attacked, and/or can immediate counter or block any attempted attacks, Okizeme is more often used to make the opponent block or behave in a certain way. For example, the standing player throws a fireball so the opponent will get up into it, forcing them to either block it or get hit, which is guaranteed damage either way. Watch this Millia match video (there's a Slayer mirror in the middle then it's Millia vs. Slayer) and what she does when Sol and Slayer are knocked down. THAT is okizeme. Sorry about the off-topicness ;____; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=casIuor98UE
BatousaiJ Posted October 21, 2010 Posted October 21, 2010 hm...no thats not me i am the red rachel I was describing myself. But yes, I checked my "players met" and your name was there so I'm pretty sure I played you. I generally have very good matches with Rachel using Tsu so I'll wager the games with you were good as well. http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/4424/maiwaifuf.jpg (Big picture) How very nice. Now put a ring on that woman. While we're on the topic on arts relating to Tsubaki, I might as well post my drawing of Holy Order Tsubaki/PK's avatar: herp derp huge drawing Yeaaaaaaaah I should stop posting here :V I like it. People that draw always get suggestions/requests from folks who don't so I won't make any but if you draw more Tsubaki stuff, you should definitely post it here =D.
BatousaiJ Posted October 21, 2010 Posted October 21, 2010 Most techtraps that I find myself ever doing is off corner shenanigans. After 22X(minus D, obviously) knockdown. 2B(pick up to 2CC) if I think they're going to try and roll. Or if the knockback connects to 3CC, go into jC throw(throw into 214D corner makes for nice damage) for if you think they're going to backwards or forward tech... 3CC -> 22D unblockable actually works quite well given neutral tech as right as they hit the ground they'll get hit. It'll lose to bang's 5A(lol godfist) but pretty much every other jab you'll trade or hit them before they can hit you(I've done some testing). You have the option of using it early of course forgoing the unblockable status to counter bang or whoever from jabbing you out. It's not something reliable that you'd use all the time but it's yet another trick that can catch people off guard and we all know the upside of getting a naked 22D hit in the corner so generally, it's worth the risk. Usually though, just standing far enough so if they roll forward they're standing right in front of you and getting that 5B in to start whatever the hell you feel like seems to be the way to go in most situation. Another fun trap is an ambiguous crossover... 2A, 5BB,5CC, 214A -> Dash 2A(whiff)-> 5BB(BnB). The reason why I go for this is simply because once you start a combo with 2A, charge meter or not the proration is incredibly bad and this gives you a choice of how you want to cross up an opponent which can start a full 5BB combo starter which we all know what that goes into. The negative side of this is that if they block then you missed a chance for knockaway and get some charge in along with some damage(albeit very little). Tsubaki doesn't have many reliable ways to get damage and a lot of relies on gimmicks to trick your opponent into getting hit by something they normally don't suspect... so learning as many of them as possible will be to your favor. I smile everytime I hear someone say "the hell?!" after getting caught by one of my many gimmicks. Yay for gimmicks and boo to a real mix-up game~ Seriously, though? I wish Tsubaki had half of Valk's mix up game man... half.
killatrooper Posted October 21, 2010 Posted October 21, 2010 @pktazn I understand why Millia's disc thing on wake-up is oki, but I don't understand why 2a-ing on wakeup isn't... I mean it usually does force them to either block or get hit. Or is 2a (or other low attacks) just such weak oki that most people don't even consider it. Or is it not oki at all? I DON'T UNDERSTAND hgegkwejhwrjgjj w/e someone PM me if they can explain this to me lol. Don't want to go too offtopic. =S
Airk Posted October 21, 2010 Posted October 21, 2010 I don't really get it either; To me Millia's disc on wakeup isn't really any different from the oldest "oki" in the book - namely a meaty attack in SF2. It's not even ambiguous, as far as I can tell. But this is seriously off topic. Can we get these oki posts split out of this thread?
Rhiya Posted October 21, 2010 Posted October 21, 2010 @pktazn I understand why Millia's disc thing on wake-up is oki, but I don't understand why 2a-ing on wakeup isn't... I mean it usually does force them to either block or get hit. Or is 2a (or other low attacks) just such weak oki that most people don't even consider it. Or is it not oki at all? I DON'T UNDERSTAND hgegkwejhwrjgjj w/e someone PM me if they can explain this to me lol. Don't want to go too offtopic. =S It's weak oki. Mashing 2A is asking to get DP'd. Of course, you could time the 2A, but this isn't Melty -- the proration on 2A is ridiculous. The reward is really low. (Or you could be mashing 2A to bait their DP and punish, but that's another story.) Compare that to say, Jin's ice sword. Ice sword makes the opponent block on wakeup, while 2A leaves open other options which you'd rather not happen. Jin's ice sword is good oki because it gives a good result pretty safely.
Airk Posted October 21, 2010 Posted October 21, 2010 It's weak oki. Mashing 2A is asking to get DP'd. Of course, you could time the 2A, but this isn't Melty -- the proration on 2A is ridiculous. The reward is really low. (Or you could be mashing 2A to bait their DP and punish, but that's another story.) But it's not different. That's what Oki -is-. It's not confined to "stuff that forces your opponent to block". It's baiting DPS. It's crossups. It's walking up and throwing your opponent because they think you're going to try something clever. It's a mindgame. Trying to say that you need an attack that forces block on wakeup to have Oki is like saying you need ham to have a sandwich. Ham is a part of a great many good sandwiches, but it's by no means required. Sadly, Tsubaki's list of ingredients is pretty short.
Slayer Alucard Posted October 21, 2010 Posted October 21, 2010 Oki is how effectively a character can pressure someone on wake up. He never said that good oki specifies forcing your opponent to block, but doing so definitely limits their options, making your pressure on their wake up that much more effective, as opposed to just mashing 2A, which is much less reliable. Point is, he's not wrong. 2A is inferior compared to something like 236C for oki.
Airk Posted October 22, 2010 Posted October 22, 2010 Oki is how effectively a character can pressure someone on wake up. He never said that good oki specifies forcing your opponent to block, but doing so definitely limits their options, making your pressure on their wake up that much more effective, as opposed to just mashing 2A, which is much less reliable. Point is, he's not wrong. 2A is inferior compared to something like 236C for oki. That's a fine assertion, but it doesn't support the hyperbolic claims that people like to make such as "BB doesn't have Oki except for Litchi", which are what I hope we can dispel with this discussion. Additionally, another thing that I think is missing from this discussion is that people keep asserting that what makes, for example, Jin's Ice Sword "good" is that it forces block on wakeup (Aside: I fail to see why someone wouldn't just roll out of the way of this). That's true, but only half, or less than half of the reason it's good. Things like Jin's Ice sword, or, moreso, Litchi's super, are good oki because: A) Yes, they force blocking. B) They leave you free to act WHILE they force blocking. Anybody can force blocking with a slow meaty attack (Well, okay, assuming you have an attack that covers a decent area. Tsubaki...kinda doesn't.) but it's not nearly as powerful because there's nothing else you can do WHILE doing that meaty. Ice Sword/Staff Super/Millia's disc are strong because they allow you to do mixup while your opponent is forced to block. This, to me, is way more important than A.
pktazn Posted October 22, 2010 Posted October 22, 2010 Oki isn't just about making your opponent block though, like Slayer Alucard said it's about keeping up pressure towards your opponent. You don't HAVE to block and you can easily jump out of most moves or even beat them and be completely safe in BB as you wake-up, effectively removing pressure even if they have a mix-up game. BB may have a little bit of oki but even then it isn't strong except for a few characters, and the recent loketest changes aren't helping.
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