[CS1] Noel vs. Makoto

[ShinobiBrown]

Pistol Whipping Flatchest Dunce vs Fisticuffs Underboob Dunce.

This thread had to be made so I went ahead and made it.

Honestly have no idea what to think yet. Pretty sure Makoto will end up shitting on Noel (since that's not hard to do unless your Tsubaki or Rachel) but my experience vs Makoto hasn't been frustrating thus far. Granted, I've only played against a Makoto that had an idea of what a combo was once, randomly while playing in a room with a friend. Bitch had just came out and I had no idea what to look for when I fought her. Of course things have changed since then in terms of my knowledge of the character, but I still haven't gotten the chance to fight another one now that I know what she can do.

Anyone else more experienced have any input?

[Mizzet]

My gut feeling says the matchup will be relatively easy actually. Makoto's normals don't have the reach of Noel's (lolwut, worse than Noel, how is this even possible), you should be able to ruin her day with 5b and 5c on the ground. Her air-to-ground game isn't very good either, from what I hear.

[Halcyone3]

her air to ground rly isnt good, and her longer poke (5B) is miles slower than noel's.

on the other hand, makoto's damage rivals noel's and she can get that damage off moves that are easier to land. Can't rly say who has the advantage here, if any.

Shinobi, i wouldn't exactly say most makoto's don't know how to combo, when all midcombo drives have to be lvl 3 to continue combos (and multiple ones per combo too, not to mention those are the big damage ones), a lot of shit gets dropped online, and not the "i dropped combo but i still blackbeat, good thing lag works both ways" kind of drop :/

[Gray Dream]

Makoto > Noel > Tsubaki in terms of Damage. Makoto being the greatest damage dealer.

Tsubaki > Noel > Makoto in terms of Learning Curve. Tsubaki being the easiest.

Noel > Tsubaki > Makoto in terms of Mixup+Pressure. Noel being the better out of the 3.

Biased.

[Halcyone3]

Biased.

very much so, how is noel's pessure the best?

makoto is not hard to learn, her only hard thing is the loop, and its not THAT essential. And tsubaki is not easier than noel.

[Gray Dream]

D: Tsubaki's Charge cancel pressure can be jumped out of. Revolver Pressure is very fast mixup Up 5B 6B 6D d.6B into bad cross up . Makoto has 1 over head and very slow lows, but I guess with 214A/B/C it could change some things.

Makoto's charging is fucking hard to me, which is why I think she's hard :3

Well combo-wise Tsubaki's easier. Not matchup/strategy wise.

I'd say Makoto and Noel have it easier than Tsubaki

[SkyKing]

I see this as 5-5 or 5.5-4.5 Makoto. Makoto can just play defensive if she isn't up close. I think the ability to parry will decide this matchup, as most of Noel's normals are about the right distances to which Makoto can expect. Space loop hurts, since ending in oki can lead to setups for a loop reset or a baited 5D to get parried. She can also stuff air dashes and whiffed moves with Big Bang Smash, so be mindful when Makoto gets 50 Heat.

On the flipside, Noel has 5C, which is pretty hard to parry, and her drives still go through Makoto's if they just throw them out there carelessly. 6A can actually be usable here since Makoto's aerials are kinda slow, but her jump is kinda odd so it may take some spacing. Haida looping her is pretty weird, but just getting knockdown and damage should be good. Makoto's wakeups can include Asteroid Visions, Corona Upper (her dp), and Big Bang Smash. Just bait these out and punish.

[Halcyone3]

makoto seems as hard to haida as tsubaki.

also, she sucks at approaching, she has no safe way of doing it on the ground and her jump-ins are horrible. However, her air-to-air seems pretty decent so far, her j.C is slow, but her j.B seems to beat a lot of other air normals, and on hit she can dj.D(3) which leads to good damage near the corner, don't underestimate it.

her 5A whiffs on ALL crouchers..... xcept maybe tager, but we are not tager, so if u see a makoto using this to start combos off easy hit-confirms, start crouching more.

And hit the 3C whle she is still spinning, she can feint the hit and on block she can still throw u before u can attack (considering she's within throw range of course). her 3C is slow, so 2C shouldn't be too hard to hit, crouching 2C = easy damage.

[SkyKing]

She's got that 5A whiff on crouching that can be used intentionally to green throw during block strings. Seen Kaqn do this several times with Ragna, so Makoto should have an even easier time doing this. Just watch out for this.

[Mezagodyah]

So has anyone found any proper way to deal with makoto? or is just kinda keep up a good pressure game and punish her because of all her frames are like slow recovery nearly.

[Chiizu]

Punish predictable orbs with 3C into nice fat damage if you're close enough, bait some DP's, don't air dash in when Makoto has got 50 heat or you're in for some giant astral fist IYF, i don't know what to do against j.2c (the tail drop thing) except 6A really... and 6A's lousy hitbox doesn't make it very easy either...

[Mezagodyah]

"i don't know what to do against j.2c (the tail drop thing) "

I actually used 4D which is noels backup like flame thing from the ground. To counter it which pops them back up but i mean its good for a CH but following up wise i still not to sure. Her 4D>6C works okay but it keeps them to high still.

[eLPointe]

"i don't know what to do against j.2c (the tail drop thing) "

I actually used 4D which is noels backup like flame thing from the ground. To counter it which pops them back up but i mean its good for a CH but following up wise i still not to sure. Her 4D>6C works okay but it keeps them to high still.

The infamous tail drop many a time did I get caught with it while in drive and combo'd for 3K+. Anyways, I have a considerable amount of experience now against Makoto, and this is what I know(opinion based):

For her tail drop specifically, your 6a (air counter) counters this. A good follow up if you can get the timing is to air dash after the hit is confirmed (counter) and before they land 5c(in air)>6c(on ground)>j. 5d>D...if you have them in the corner you can end it with a combo for about 4k I think it does that's with DD and a air throw following it up. You could just do normal BnB from 6a which does only 2.5k but damage is damage with noel. Oh I tested 4D>623d in the corner you can make some nice outcomes, but it's extremely hard to link it to 66c at mid screen. I dunno if it's even possible unless you rapid.

Now because Makoto's tail drop is slow to land you have to work on delaying your 6a since it comes out relatively fast.

Edited December 2, 2010 by eLPointe

[confusedxphreak]

Against Makoto, these are the things I keep in mind:

1. Be patient with blocking. Some of Makoto's blockstrings are ridiculous, so I just do my best to remain patient and block until I see an opening. A lot of Makoto's normals, especially at close range, beats Noel's, so trying to poke out fails a lot. WATCH FOR CROSS-UPS. I find Noel's anti-airs pretty unreliable in terms of risk and payout for Makoto, so instead of trying to counter her j.2C, I usually just react to block it.

2. Anticipate Makoto's 2A or 3C approaches. 2D is especially useful for Makotos who like to hit low.

3. I keep track of Makoto's pressure strings so I can can 4D FC when there are holes.

4. Noel's CA is always an option when being pressured.

[Runis]

FC 4D d.6A(whiff) d.6C d.5D 623D usually works as an anti air FC combo, it's not that easy to always follow up though but if you do, it's like 4k.

[eLPointe]

One thing I noticed was that sometimes if timed correctly you can 4d for a FC right before she lands and she will be on the ground, which opens her up for some heavy damage (5K or so). But in a live match I doubt you will manage to pull it off consistently I still think for the tail drop 6a is noels best option. Seeing as it almost never fails and I have had 4D clash with the tail drop...

Edited December 2, 2010 by eLPointe

[Sahgren]

Worth noting that Makoto's j.2C cannot be punished by 5A on IB if the Mak is mashing 2A. Fortunately, you can just 2D over their 2A until they wizen up about it.