What makes Tager "fair" ?

[Isorropia]

@Issoropia you are seroiusly downplaying tagers abilities. You are acting like the only way tager can beat you in this game is if you give him the match by playing stupidly - that is not true.

Against Bang and Litchi, at high level, that's how it is. As litchi, just use your pokes. That's it. Tager has no method of approaching you. If he jumps at you use 2C. If he sledges/walks at you, let it whiff and punish with anything. As I've said, 6B, 2B, 3C, j.C are great options to hit a tager trying to get closer to you. If you see his spark meter is full, play cautiously, most tagers will shoot it at fullscreen the moment it's charge, so just block it. Then when he tries to pull you in press 6B for a free counterhit combo. If you score a knockdown, don't get careless and rush him when he wakes up (you'll eat command throws this way), keep your distance and do a ranged poke when he gets up. Likewise if he knocks you down, be aware of his throws - most online tagers fail at combos so jumping out should get you free from those situations (naturally if they aren't terrible they'll do proper pressure on you, but hey that's another thing altogether). In fact, jump straight up and do an aerial as their throw whiffs for a free combo.

This can be said about any character - if you played every match perfectly then you would never take any damage

To an extent yes. But it's worse for tager due to his mobility options. Most characters have a way of forcing their strong points onto the opponent, eg most zoners can attack with projectiles from a distance. Ragna and other rushdown characters can get into attacking range and start a blockstring to utilise their strengths. Tager cannot. Tager literally has no approach method, nor does he have a method to get the opponent where he wants them sa.fely like most characters can (assuming neutral situation)

[smooshman]

@Issoropia you are seroiusly downplaying tagers abilities. You are acting like the only way tager can beat you in this game is if you give him the match by playing stupidly - that is not true. I was asking a question based on my current knowledge of the game - by no means did I say my opinion was the be all end all deciding factor on tagers strength in the game. I clearly stated that I was a new player and I felt this way, and asked for people to explain to my why I was wrong so in hopes of not losing hope in this game.

tager is sort of a template to show players what they're doing wrong (like ladon said)

careless projectile? spark bolt/sledge

bad teching? 360/720

bad reversal...ing? 360/720

Tager essentially capitalizes on (very common) mistakes that all players make (atleast at some point), unlike many characters who punish you for it, he destroys you. However, he's far from perfect, he's slow, and can't really do much overall in a neutral situation.... I bet if you were to watch a match of you vs Tager, you would facepalm at the mistakes you made, I know whenever I tech in a bad situation I think "oh shit, shouldn't have done that" and then I eat a 720.... you just have to learn from you mistakes/*another generic cliche*

EDIT: oh look ninja'd by three people........ must type faster

[rei-Scarred]

This is where you are wrong. Tager only gets Damage when you make mistakes, or guess right. Either way You handed him the match for messing up or getting predictable. Either way you brought it on yourself.

Not true. By that logic every character only gets damage when you make mistakes. Tager has mixup (albeit weak) so if tager conditions you to block low with 5B 3C and then mixups with 6B later that is not a "mistake" by his opponent. That's Tager actually earning damage for once by being unpredictable just like EVERY other character gets their damage.

[Shervin]

Noobs cant handle command grabs, plain and simple.

Noobs get ATE up by Gief and Abel in SF so they cry that they are broken. Remember what people said about Gief when SF4 first came out?

assuming anyone here plays sf4

[Cooldudenotu]

Thanks for the helpful advice to those who gave it, I'm gonna jump online (I will without question face some tagers) and put it to practice, and see how things go. Isorropia I'm going to try to abuse pokes, the one time I beat a tager is when I just used 6B, j.b and 5B the whole match.

I didn't even realize there was a meter to show when he had charge - that should help a lot as well.

[Almadiel]

You shouldn't assume you are better than the Tager player just because you can get in lots of cheap hits and run circles around him. You are able to do that because of Tager's glaring mobility weaknesses, and his health will allow him to endure it for a while. When he eventually does turn it around and rape you, its because of the player's patience and skill. You are simply being complacent and assuming that the whole match will keep going in your favor if you keep doing the same things. This is exactly the wrong strategy. Worse if you keep doing things that do not work in your favor to begin with.

[SethDahlios]

This can be said about any character - if you played every match perfectly then you would never take any damage. They call it a "Perfect" for a reason. You have to expect that in a match things will not go your way the whole time. And if things don't go your way in a tager match, you lose no questions?

You seem to misunderstand. We aren't saying play perfectly. You WILL take damage against tager. We are saying to not be stupid around him. Tager is someone you have to zone correctly. When you do a combo don't stupidly stand next to him. Give him his space. If you don't respect this rule, you end up thrown into the air and taking massive damage. Tager has no guaranteed in. He cannot do a move and be promised an approach you can do nothing about. You need to learn to take advantage of tager's lag time on his moves. Tager is ridiculously slow, he is predictable on his options, and he has a game plan that requires he not combo into his throws, if he wants ANY guaranteed damage.

By the way you all are talking it seems like you never lose to tagers at all and you laugh at them. The homepage of this site shows that a tager took first place in BBCS qualifications? How did this happen, did everyone at the tournament give him each game?

EDIT: ( i know it was doubles, Tager was still one of the members of the winning team)

Tager has ways of forcing ins. ALso because you ahve to give tager space, you also are giving up guranteed ins. (because they weren't guaranteed) When you fight tager, until you hit finish you are guaranteed SHIT. I promise you the players that Tager beat were taking risks and making decisions under pressure, and were hoping it would pay off. The problem is, Tager can easily run the clock. If he gets off one throw, you need TWO combos to catch up. This is because on average, you will do two combos for every ONE throw tager gets off.

Also, how much damage are you doing with a combo? Obviously not enough, because you should be able to run the board for damage on a hit confirm. You aren't taking advantage of the time you DO get to deal damage to him. If you haven't been doing at least 3.5K, you need to hit training.

I haven't even seen you play and I can already guess at what you're doing wrong. He's probably the best character for you to fight, because he will beat you into shape quickly. He enforces good habits.

[mAc Chaos]

If Tager beat you, he outplayed you. You can't complain about his big grab damage because if he didn't have that he'd literally have nothing.

[mAc Chaos]

Might as well just throw this out there for old time's sake: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0KgQbxKefs

This is what Tager has to fight through.

[MisoSowee]

Man such an infamous match lol.

[The_Zawmbee]

Lol at that video, to in a sense offset the negativity you seem to be feeling, I play Hazama and am training to use Makoto.

You see Tager has very few options so lets start this short guide to "Respecting Tager and His Personal Space" by The_Zawmbee

To start Tager is slow so as a Haz I immediately get out of the way, as Litchi i would do the same.

If you put pressure on tager with Litchi I advise having an exit strategy preferably the one where Litchi leaps back to her staff and tosses just to get out so you dont eat an IB 360/720

Spark Bolt should be baited or at least waited for/expected, Tager player do have a tendecy to waste it so be prepared as to get a little cautious when the meter is full

Tager's magnetism can cause serious mindgames if your not used to it.

Don't blindly rush in because Tager can just 360 you when you try to close the gap if your both standing(Trust me this happens alot, coming from a guy who mained him in CT)

Watch for wiffed sledges, a good time to rush in iirc is during B sledge's recovery(Us Hazamas try to bait this because we cant run in)

AC(atomic collider) can be a pain in the ass iirc it has head invulnerability protip: dont jump in deep on him.

Watch your staff placement also, with the proper setup tager can eat so serious combos from Litch, no joke.

If you need a more tips try going to Litchi's matchup sections

first comment is sarcasm so dont be deterred

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?9359-CS-Litchi-vs-Tager

[mr.mortified]

Tager play is all about spacing, spacing and a bit of psychic powers. In other words for tagers to win they need one of two things, luck or to get inside your head. As long as you're unpredictable, punish easy sledge whiffs and mind the gap he's easy enough to beat.

[A.X.I.S.]

who is the shit fuck who made this thread? seriously who? your fucking dumb if you think he can take half your health with 50 meter, fucking dumb.

this is not CT, this is CS.

you want to hear a tager players opinion then here goes:

yes tager is fair he is a grappler and he is slow and fat, he doesn't even do as much damage as he used to, and everyone beats him like he is a punching bag.

If you can't beat tager than your either:

A. a fucking scrub, in which I suggest you shut your bitching and do some research and learn the game.

B. he's better than you, again do your research and also learn from your mistakes.

C. quit, because honestly, no one cares about your failures.

[DxClow]

Perfect Zoning :O It has always slapped me in the face in CT, and a bunch of other things.... like Haida.....

But yea in really high level play tager is everyone's b****. He's kinda in the rachel tier... If the opponent never screws up, and always gets you, Tager will have to go...

[Drill]

Tager to me is understandably That One Character for many newcomers because as has been said: He punishes them far more than other characters.

However, when you improve your skills, you begin to be able to handle Tager better. You read the sledges, you block more of his shit, you realize just rushing blindly can make you eat a 720, etc. Once a player gains the skills they will need and begins learning matchups, Tager isn't overpowered.

...And if nothing else Tager is fair because a fair number of characters can zone the living HELL out of him.

[Heavy_Mental]

If you can't beat tager than your either:

A. a fucking scrub, in which I suggest you shut your bitching and do some research and learn the game.

B. he's better than you, again do your research and also learn from your mistakes.

C. quit, because honestly, no one cares about your failures.

Real fucking talk.

Lesson #0 of Life: Don't be a fucking retard.

I suggest you learn it OP.

[Phoeniks]

Tager was my first real main in CT and he remains one of my mains to this day in CS (he moved below Bang and Ragna as I got better at the game). My friend's only main is Tager and I play him consistently. The real key to playing Tager is understanding exactly how all the tools at his disposal work. Here's a quick list of his main tools:

-Backdash (has 17 invincibility frames I think)

A good Tager can buffer whatever he needs out of backdash and will use it consistently. It's not perfect though and can be baited to some extent. Ragna's 623C will outright beat it almost always, among other moves.

-360A, 360B, 720C

These are what give you and everyone without enough Tager experience trouble. Be predictable against a good Tager and you will eat these on a regular basis. Watch out especially for 720C (5612 dmg I believe). This is where Tager's heat will go the majority of the time and it can easily reverse a match last second. Tagers will be itching to get you with this constantly, and they will employ any and all tech traps to land it, which brings me to my next point.

-Tech traps

With Tager's command grabs and Atomic Collider it is more than likely he will try to punish poor teching. An astute Tager can really trick you when you're magnetized and not paying utmost attention to how you're teching. This was originally why I fell in love with Tager.

-Sledge/Spark Bolt

The projectile killers. Spark Bolt is pretty much unpunishable and will magnetize even on block, but Tager shouldn't ever get more than 2 a round. The key with this is to make Tager waste it, and he WILL waste it. From the perspective of an avid Tager player, it is tempting as all hell to throw it out ASAP in hopes for a cheese hit. Sledge is misused ALL the time and can be severely punished on reaction. If a Tager uses sledge correctly (no easy feat) you just have to be careful.

Believe me, I understand where you are coming from on your opinion of Tager. My friends felt the exact same way within a few days of me picking him up. I literally had to beat it into them that most of his stuff is far far far from perfect. Nearly everyone online got perfected or nearly perfected by my Tager, even Nu's (lol). Not to pat my own back, but I guarantee you have not fought a better Tager than me, especially online. I am willing to bet most of the Tagers you fight are scrubby as hell and they will probably fall to Litchi's 6B and 2B. Just don't get magnetized and make it a point to learn from your mistakes. Also, watch videos of MikeZ or Jan play Tager and pay especially close attention to how their opponents act.

Also, don't get discouraged by the people who are throwing tantrums because you don't understand the game perfectly. You already said you've played the game for three days and this forum is largely dedicated to helping players get better.

Oh god and before I forget: jump ALOT.

EDIT: Try not to outright disregard what the tantrum-throwers are saying. It's not that they're incorrect, it's that they aren't being politely constructive. It is true you are a scrub and that you don't fully understand the game, but absolutely everyone here was where you are now at one point (and many still are).

[Leo7]

Couldn't Tager players more easily take this question, turn it around, and ask: What makes BlazBlue fair?

Hahaha, how do you punish up+back with Tager in BB? You either need to have them in the corner or magnetized (and you're not always guaranteed to punish it if they're magnetized either).

There were many moments where I wish I had Guilty Gear air throws while playing BB.

[Phoeniks]

That quote actually made me very happy, but then slightly sad later.

[Obsessed]

Why are you so upset?

I guess your one of those people that gets mad when new players ask legitimate questions about a game you play. I have been playing litchi for all of 3 days, the things that make her such a great character I cannot do yet.

I think he is upset because you clearly know jack shit about the game. Look at Tager's spot on the tier list, look at high level matches, read Tager's matchup threads. All the signs point to one truth: Tager sucks balls!

Even worse, you admit it is your third day. You constantly argue back like you know more about the game than the veterans on this site.

You came off as ignorant and arrogant. That is why people are getting mad at you.

[Phoeniks]

He isn't arrogant. He is having issues understanding what everyone is yelling at him and people are mostly failing to examine the problem at hand from his perspective.

He is trying to remedy his ignorance soon after picking up a game. It is only polite to calmly tell him why he's wrong and provide in-depth feedback.

[A.X.I.S.]

I think he is upset because you clearly know jack shit about the game. Look at Tager's spot on the tier list, look at high level matches, read Tager's matchup threads. All the signs point to one truth: Tager sucks balls!

Even worse, you admit it is your third day. You constantly argue back like you know more about the game than the veterans on this site.

You came off as ignorant and arrogant. That is why people are getting mad at you.

tager doesn't suck.

tager is actually pretty decent right now, its just the mechanics of the game combined with most the characters having something over him that makes him look that bad.

[Phoeniks]

tager doesn't suck.

tager is actually pretty decent right now, its just the mechanics of the game combined with most the characters having something over him that makes him look that bad.

Not to poke fun at your expense but I'm pretty much interpreting this as: "Tager doesn't suck, it's just that compared to the rest of the characters in the construct of the game that he sucks."

I know what you mean though, he really gets more shit than he fully deserves.

[A.X.I.S.]

that is the joke you...where is my cane I am gonna rock you!

[Cooldudenotu]

Tager was my first real main in CT and he remains one of my mains to this day in CS (he moved below Bang and Ragna as I got better at the game). My friend's only main is Tager and I play him consistently. The real key to playing Tager is understanding exactly how all the tools at his disposal work. Here's a quick list of his main tools:

-Backdash (has 17 invincibility frames I think)

A good Tager can buffer whatever he needs out of backdash and will use it consistently. It's not perfect though and can be baited to some extent. Ragna's 623C will outright beat it almost always, among other moves.

-360A, 360B, 720C

These are what give you and everyone without enough Tager experience trouble. Be predictable against a good Tager and you will eat these on a regular basis. Watch out especially for 720C (5612 dmg I believe). This is where Tager's heat will go the majority of the time and it can easily reverse a match last second. Tagers will be itching to get you with this constantly, and they will employ any and all tech traps to land it, which brings me to my next point.

-Tech traps

With Tager's command grabs and Atomic Collider it is more than likely he will try to punish poor teching. An astute Tager can really trick you when you're magnetized and not paying utmost attention to how you're teching. This was originally why I fell in love with Tager.

-Sledge/Spark Bolt

The projectile killers. Spark Bolt is pretty much unpunishable and will magnetize even on block, but Tager shouldn't ever get more than 2 a round. The key with this is to make Tager waste it, and he WILL waste it. From the perspective of an avid Tager player, it is tempting as all hell to throw it out ASAP in hopes for a cheese hit. Sledge is misused ALL the time and can be severely punished on reaction. If a Tager uses sledge correctly (no easy feat) you just have to be careful.

Believe me, I understand where you are coming from on your opinion of Tager. My friends felt the exact same way within a few days of me picking him up. I literally had to beat it into them that most of his stuff is far far far from perfect. Nearly everyone online got perfected or nearly perfected by my Tager, even Nu's (lol). Not to pat my own back, but I guarantee you have not fought a better Tager than me, especially online. I am willing to bet most of the Tagers you fight are scrubby as hell and they will probably fall to Litchi's 6B and 2B. Just don't get magnetized and make it a point to learn from your mistakes. Also, watch videos of MikeZ or Jan play Tager and pay especially close attention to how their opponents act.

Also, don't get discouraged by the people who are throwing tantrums because you don't understand the game perfectly. You already said you've played the game for three days and this forum is largely dedicated to helping players get better.

Oh god and before I forget: jump ALOT.

EDIT: Try not to outright disregard what the tantrum-throwers are saying. It's not that they're incorrect, it's that they aren't being politely constructive. It is true you are a scrub and that you don't fully understand the game, but absolutely everyone here was where you are now at one point (and many still are).

Thank you!

I have faced 3 tagers in a number of matches since this thread and I have not lost 1 yet

You are correct in assuming most of the tagers I face are terrible, they make the mistakes pegged to bad tagers. Before I would become offensive at some point in the match (once i got their health down low) and end up losing, I just keep defensive and abuse his short coming as pointed out here - been working wonderful.

lol @ those saying I'm arrogant and arguing with vets. The only things I argued were things I knew from years of experience in fighting games. I've never played GG and this is my first BB game - big change of pace for me over here but it doesn't mean that I don't know anything about fighting games. I had never encountered ANYTHING like tager before. How can I be arrogant when I openly admit I know next to nothing about this game / character and ask for information? shm xD

A lot of the problem as well was that I was "scared" of facing the character, which was making me mess up quite a bit. Besides today I was only able to win 1 match in the last week + of playing (been playing litchi for a few days, picked up Noel first).

I understand the hostility, I've been around long enough to know to expect the presence of a few underdeveloped personalities while on gaming boards it's all good

Thanks for the help to the rest of you! It worked wonders.