[CS1] Makoto vs Rachel

[Breakman6]

Since this thread isn't up yet I guess I'll start it.

Interesting matchup; Rachel may be F-tier, but she can play a very annoying keep-away game with her electric wallz.

Anyone have any thoughts?

[seyu]

played a few rachels. most were jsut a piece of cake, even if they occasionally CHed me her combos rarely do more then 2k damage.

i met one really good guy though, forgot his name, he kept me occupied with projectiles so i couldnt approach through the air and constantly had george and the pumkin out without really leaving big holes in his defense.

i dont have much expecience with the matchup, but id say keep your fingers away from 3C, be mobile so she cant set up her sword lilys and stuff and if you appreach through the air dont go for IADs, most rachels from CT know how to deal with that anyway.

[Yukikaze]

Parry lobelia?... I say approach slowly from the ground, like CT Haks vs rach.

Whats the problem with 3C? well timed it would beat them clean...

[Halcyone3]

3C is easily beaten by george and pumpkin. Lobelias are lobbed, so they will fall on you if you carelessly try to 3C to avoid them, and even if you are careful, her wind can make them land on top of u anyways. Rachel has standing attacks that hit makoto even with her 3C hitbox, like 5B, there are not many moves u can 3C under vs rachel.

Also parrying lobelias won't stun rachel unless you are standing right in front of her. U might as well just IB them for heat instead.

[jmuzz]

Like OP said the thing that makes this matchup difficult for Makoto is that Rachel is able to effectively keep her away for the entire match. Makoto doesn't have any particularly reliable tools for getting in on her, so in some respect you have to get lucky. The key is to be able to keep the pressure on once you are close and not give Rachel a chance to get away and start doing her thing again, so learn all the different ways you can link into moves that reset your block strings and keep switching them up. Good ones are 214a -> b or 214b/c -> 2c, or you can combo into a fake 3c and start jabbing again or throw.

If you are not close you can try to do Makoto's longish range combos like (optional b ->) 6c -> 214a -> c -> a (or mixup if she blocks). This can work to get you close if you can out poke her.

[Nini Heart]

6B>C whiffs a lot on her in combos.

236A>5CC>6BC does not work on her in corner.

Cost me a few wins >.>

Edit: Yeah, i'm doing that against Rachel now;)

Edited November 17, 2010 by Nini Heart

[OmniSScythe]

Just end it with 6B.

[Crosell]

Just end it with 6B.

Its so simple it just might work.

:P , sadly I;ve just gotten in the habit of ending all my combos with 6b to avoid that situation. haha.

[SolAscension]

I'm really having trouble here, I have a hard time dealing with here rushdown of blockstrings that never seem to end. 214C barrier block helps me get in, but even then wind and lobelia mess with me. What are some good mixups and blockstrings you find effective on her when I actually do get in?

[Eshi]

Against Rachel, there isn't really much Makoto can do to get in. Wind + lobelia trajectory + pumpkin are effective counters to her approaches. You just have to be patient, wait for her to make a wrong read and then blow her up.

Staggered 5CC is a pretty good mix-up against her. Her only defensive tool is cat chair which isn't invincible on start-up, so you can frame trap her with this for a beefy combo.

Her rushdown isn't actually that good, once you learn her frame data you'll find that she has holes everywhere and really simple mix-up. Even if you don't know it, IB > DP RC is pretty much all you need.

[excelence]

I've been playing this match up for 3 weeks and come in conclusion ... this is one of Mak worst match up even if Rachel makes a wrong read, she can just blow the squirrel away to the corner of the screen =_= ... and Lobelia's fucking fast i can's seem to react with BBS on time

i do agree her rush down isn't really good, but Mak lack the range to have the ability to counter her rush down ... comet cannon approach isn't too effective, especially if George already out, she'll most likely forced to block George, if she force the way with it

The opening match up is quite mind blowing... sure she can't just throw Lobelia a at the start of the match every time, but if i react on it, most of the time i just can get her on blocking instead of 6k on the clean 3c hit =_= (thought everyone now just burst out if i hit with 2c/3c ), if she iad back i can get 5d to hit, but if i guess wrong i eat Lobelia counter another option she had is just jump/double jump and pumpkin ... whatever. she end up zoning our poor squirrel in the end =_=

and what makes things worst her space control ability just too godlike that cripple Mak damage output too 2k~3k on each hit

so far my best tactic on her is, get a health lead and try my best not to get caught on any hit, seriously need approaching tips, since she can just blow away the squirrel with Lobelias and D's

[Eshi]

I've been playing this match up for 3 weeks and come in conclusion ... this is one of Mak worst match up even if Rachel makes a wrong read, she can just blow the squirrel away to the corner of the screen =_= ... and Lobelia's fucking fast i can's seem to react with BBS on time

A lobelia's recovery is too fast. B and C lobelia should be easy to punish on reaction. If she's blowing her gauge to make up for bad reads then she'll run out quickly, and she's dead without wind.

i do agree her rush down isn't really good, but Mak lack the range to have the ability to counter her rush down ... comet cannon approach isn't too effective, especially if George already out, she'll most likely forced to block George, if she force the way with it

Range won't help anyone with rush down once someone has actually started their rush down. In which case, your tools to deal with it are A) DP RC B) Parry C) 5A/2A D) Blocking. D) is a fine choice for anyone because her mix-up is really predictable without 2 or more wind.

The opening match up is quite mind blowing... sure she can't just throw Lobelia a at the start of the match every time, but if i react on it, most of the time i just can get her on blocking instead of 6k on the clean 3c hit =_= (thought everyone now just burst out if i hit with 2c/3c ), if she iad back i can get 5d to hit, but if i guess wrong i eat Lobelia counter another option she had is just jump/double jump and pumpkin ... whatever. she end up zoning our poor squirrel in the end =_=

Never, ever use 3C or 5D as an opener against good players. They are both super risky, only punish 1-2 choices and hitting with 5D from midscreen isn't even rewarding. Don't play so desperately, be patient.

and what makes things worst her space control ability just too godlike that cripple Mak damage output too 2k~3k on each hit

Her space control isn't godlike. It takes a lot of skill to outzone good players with Rachel, but she can't do it forever because of wind use and low damage giving you more time to find an opening and destroy her. You'll get used to approaching with experience and patience, like any other zoner (most of them are better at it than Rachel, to boot).

[Crosell]

I think its the patience issue the kills a lot of Makoto's (myself included) with heavy zoners like Hazama and Rachel you have to wait for your openings and take it a bit slower, and take less risks.

[Nini Heart]

Meh hazama is not that bad. Rachel can apply some good pressure though, I find it harder to get out of her corner pressure unscathed than to get in on her unscathed, though that's probably cause I don't know what gatlings into what and i try to block everything on reaction. Just remember : don't airdash, abuse barrier asteroid, don't go for the C follow up after 6B in combos as it whiffs a lot, and as said before, don't get impatient.

[excelence]

A lobelia's recovery is too fast. B and C lobelia should be easy to punish on reaction. If she's blowing her gauge to make up for bad reads then she'll run out quickly, and she's dead without wind.

I'm talking about bad reads that didn't came as often as scrubs mashing winds ... that i wish so . lobbed lobelias can even makes a bad read works on her favor with wind

Range won't help anyone with rush down once someone has actually started their rush down. In which case, your tools to deal with it are A) DP RC B) Parry C) 5A/2A D) Blocking. D) is a fine choice for anyone because her mix-up is really predictable without 2 or more wind.

The problem with Corona Upper is ... why the hell Rachel want to be on Makoto DP range? =_= ... mix up with 2 wind is also very viable imo especialy if she has 50% heat ... Baden2x Lily combo is fucking long

Never, ever use 3C or 5D as an opener against good players. They are both super risky, only punish 1-2 choices and hitting with 5D from midscreen isn't even rewarding. Don't play so desperately, be patient.

1st off i don't agree to never ever use 3c/5d as opener... since it cut Makoto option just damn too much, just imagine Makoto without 3c at Opening match with Rachel ... say hello to A lobelias~~~

Her space control isn't godlike. It takes a lot of skill to outzone good players with Rachel, but she can't do it forever because of wind use and low damage giving you more time to find an opening and destroy her. You'll get used to approaching with experience and patience, like any other zoner (most of them are better at it than Rachel, to boot).

Yes there's a limit to wind gauge but then again makoto can't afford to makes any mistake since Rachel can almost fully recover her gauge on a single combo

This is just one hell of a match up i'll take Mu/Hazama anytime but Rachel is ...

@crossell : i'm not really sure if it's patience issue ... i'm quite certain about 50% of my match up against her end up on time out

[Eshi]

I'm talking about bad reads that didn't came as often as scrubs mashing winds ... that i wish so .

This sentence literally makes no sense to me.

The problem with Corona Upper is ... why the hell Rachel want to be on Makoto DP range? =_= ... mix up with 2 wind is also very viable imo especialy if she has 50% heat ... Baden2x Lily combo is fucking long

Rachel's normals have extremely short range. If she wants to pressure you, be it in the corner or midscreen, she is in DP range. Her mix-up is 'okay' if she has two wind, but still easy to stop as long as you don't mash through pumpkin frame traps and react to highs. It doesn't get scary until she's cornered you.

1st off i don't agree to never ever use 3c/5d as opener... since it cut Makoto option just damn too much, just imagine Makoto without 3c at Opening match with Rachel ... say hello to A lobelias~~~

Imagine a world where... you had to block one lobelia? That's not exactly tragic. And even if you correctly predict an A lobelia, I'm guessing the rachel you play with hasn't tried winding it for a counterhit. In general 3C isn't a good tool for this match-up due to wind, except for closing some distance.

Yes there's a limit to wind gauge but then again makoto can't afford to makes any mistake since Rachel can almost fully recover her gauge on a single combo

Makoto can afford to make quite a few mistakes. Rachel can't afford to make any mistakes, because Makoto does 3x her damage.

This is just one hell of a match up i'll take Mu/Hazama anytime but Rachel is ...

If you seriously think this, then you have never played a decent Mu or Hazama and the Rachel is simply outplaying you. Sorry if that comes off as harsh, but this match-up isn't nearly as bad as you think it is.

[Kuuhaku]

Yes there's a limit to wind gauge but then again makoto can't afford to makes any mistake since Rachel can almost fully recover her gauge on a single combo

Are you sure you're not playing against U Rachel? You should really check to see if that name is pink.

[Nini Heart]

I hate this matchup.

Rachel is very annoying to fight against. She can't really do much, but she's annoying and forces you to lose your cool and do impatient shit like 3Cing under lobelias which will get you fucked. 3C isn't a very good tool in this match up. 214B/C barrier is pretty much how you approach. I like parrying lobelias and doing the follow up in case they're doing more dumb shit.

Her jab is VERY good, so beware of that. She is also very vulnerable to corner oki due to not having a frame 1 invincible outside of counter assault. Once you corner rachel, the match is pretty much over. Her overhead is kinda slow so you should be okay when dealing with her mixup.

As long as you keep your cool, you can win this match easily. It's just a very annoying match.

[mAc Chaos]

^Sounds like you'd have a hard time against Hakumen. :P

[Nini Heart]

Hakumen isn't really annoying. He just has good long range pokes and big damage. Plus, he's a joke in CS2. Rachel has wind, lobelias, and pumpkin(how i hate that lil fucker). When she has wind, she pretty much dictates the flow of the match.

[OmniSScythe]

I hate to say this but Rachel is probably our easiest match up, The risk vs reward is free, breaking her primers is free, back-throw is 6k damage by default, her jab is horrible it's just seemed to get mashed out a lot by most of XBL's Rachels...

Heck you can spam j.B like a madman and stuff her 80% of the time.

[Nini Heart]

I haven't actually fought any decent(read: not free as hell) rachels on XBL, so I don't know how they use their jab, but I do play against a good local rachel player who knows his stuff and this match up feels(and is) annoying for both of us. Her up close game is not stellar but still decent, IB>jab allows her to initiate offense, and her keep away tactics are pretty decent. Whenever I lose against him, it's cause he managed to zone me really hard.

I'm not saying it's hard, but I find it annoying cause you have to play really patiently and she has many things to piss you off like pumpkin.

Maybe i'm doing something wrong or it's cause i'm hella impatient but I personally can't really call this matchup free.

What's your strat for approaching Rachel Omni? Do you have any videos of you fighting a good rachel? I could probably learn a lot about the match up if you do:keke:

Edit: I was misguided by my lack of skill and the Rachel's skill level being much higher than me.

This match up is by far our easiest.

General Tips

214A/B/C is good to get in. You can go into Lightning arrows if you're sure to jump over a lobelia for either 5K damage or a broken primer+ frame advantage. It can also cross up creating ambiguous to block situations

3C not so much since she can wind her lobelias to home in on us.

Dash in Parry/Barrier is also a decent way to get in.

Jump, Airdash barrier is a good way to get in as well

Risk reward is retardedly in our favor.

BBS>Zoning

Offense/Pressure

5CC>6B isn't really a good idea. She can cat chair through that. Better and less obvious overhead setups include J.CC>6B, 2A>6B, 6A>6B

2A is really good(nothing new here) and stuffs a lot of her pokes

Tick throws are very much worth it. Backthrow>Comet Cannon>stuff does a lot of damage

Rachel doesn't have good answers to string>236A. Properly spaced, cat chair and her 2A whiffs, and she still gets hit by Makoto and the orb because of her hitbox.

4 primers and no real answers to 236A means she is easily guard broken

Rachel's jab is really good, be careful of leaving big gaps in your strings

J.B beats all her air normals as long as you're below her.

Her anti air loses to J.CC and J.2C

Defense

Rachel's mix up in the corner is really good with george keeping you locked down.

Out of the corner, IB>DP and IB>Backdash works really well when george is not out.

2A mash doesn't really work here, she has some interesting frame traps

Her J.C beats most normals you throw when you're above her.

Ground to air, 6A beats all her stuff, and parry is really useful here, especially against those instant J2Cs.

Counter assaults are a good tool to use when cornered as they make all her stuff disappear.

Edited April 16, 2011 by Nini Heart