Star-Demon Posted October 19, 2011 Posted October 19, 2011 How fast combos are How fast moves actually are overall These are what I'm referring to.
Koozebanian Fazoob Posted October 20, 2011 Posted October 20, 2011 Well in both of those cases, they're a fair bit slower than 2k2. Combos especially, but specials and normals are a hair slower overall as well.
furix Posted October 20, 2011 Posted October 20, 2011 The game is actually overall a bit slower than 2k2. 2k2 is a pretty fast game.
omegaryuji Posted October 20, 2011 Posted October 20, 2011 (edited) All of these just my opinion (as a low/mid-ish level player) unless noted otherwise: How quickly someone successfully rushed down/gets zoned out, like how many steps you have to take to get past zoning. Getting in is probably a little faster than 2002 since nobody in the arcade version can zone as well as 2002 Athena/Billy. XIII Billy might slow things down a bit, though, so we'll see, but overall, despite the larger screen and slightly slower movement (seems that way to me, at least), it's pretty quick to get in that ass. How quickly some gets cornered Feels like a lot of characters have some massive carry once DCs or BC mode come into play. Or, alternatively, just pick Maxima and throw fools coast to coast *laughs* How often big damage is dealt Basic damage output is about the same in general for both, but overall damage output is higher in XIII thanks to drive cancels, EX specials/DMs, and BC mode no longer taking 2 meters to cancel into. How fast combos are Depends on the character, but it seems like a significant portion of the cast either has multi-part specials or can follow up with juggles/links after some specials (especially when EX versions come into play). I feel like part of the reason why combos are a bit slower is also because hitstop is generally longer in XIII than 2002 (might be a little biased since I've been using a lot of 98/2002 Clark lately and his cl.C has less hitstop than most C/D attacks). How fast moves actually are overall Still got some 1-frame grabs, and the usual fast stuff like Kyo cl.C is still fast, but some things like A/B poke strings seem slowed down a bit. Hard to quantify, though, and I think it's more a factor of the greater hitstop than actually slower animation times in most cases. Keep in mind that 2002 had some really fast moves (yay for 13 frame overheads with Vanessa/Yamazaki and 2 frame cl.C's with Iori/Kyo/Chris *laughs* ). How quick inputs have to be Well, you don't have time to make a sandwich between inputs like Garou, but it's not as strict as 98/2002, either. From the bit of XI I've played (and based on what other KOF players are saying), that one and XIII have just about the same input reading. How "Fast" pressure is(high/low speed, escape windows, etc) For rushdown/mixup-based characters (Yuri, Iori, Duo Lon, etc.), damn fast. Overall, I'd say the best pressure in XIII is on par with the best pressure in 2002. How jumping is More floaty than 2002, but it's a lot easier to connect early jumpins into combos (similar to XI), so overall, the main difference I feel in jumping is the different jump arcs moreso than actual jump speed. How long matches generally are(due to combination of damage, how long combos take, and "how long neutral takes") About the same as 2002. Slower combos and greater hitstop are countered pretty well with higher damage output and (seemingly) faster meter gain, and trying to keep people out with fireballs is still nerfed by being KOF. This goes down a few pegs if someone is sitting around double-charging dropkicks with Raiden, though (at least until the console version comes *laughs* ). Edit: Latest partial changelog blog from SNK (translation by the Professor): Changes in game system: Hitstun for normal jump attacks have been shortened. Special attacks in the air have generally been tuned to come out faster, and air combos from canceling AC are still present. Elisabeth - Etincelles builds up less meter - Ex Reverie-geler has a longer recovery time on a success. Because of that, normal moves can't be used for the additional hit. The recovery time can be canceled with a special. - An Ex version of her Reverie-souhaiter and Reverie-prier have been added in the game. It's invincible while in movement and cancelable with a special. What's more, the special will automatically come out as an Ex version without the need of meter. However, supers will not turn into an Ex. * Grand Rafale's damage has been dropped from 200 to 150. - Noble-Blanche has longer invincibility. - Ex Noble-Blanche's hitbox has been changed so that it's easier to get in all the multiple hits. With this change, it does a full hit at the corner. * Grand Rafale has more cancelable frames for MAX cancel. Producer Yamamoto says: With the new Ex version of Reverie-souhaiter and Reverie-prier, she has more options for attacks. It can even be used as a sort of running throw with Mistral, so please try things out. Grand Rafale's damage has been reduced to 150, but it can be Max canceled even after the first hit now. Also, Noble-Blanche can be Max canceled as well, so it can be used in various situations such as the finishing touch on combos. Terry * Crouching A > Crouching C is a chain combo. Can be canceled. * Normal Buster Wolf's dashing speed is now identical to the EX version. But the Invincibility is the same as before. - Far D's recovery time has been shortened. - Standing CD's hit detection lasts a bit longer. * Trinity Geyser's hitbox has been changed so that it actually hits 3 times. Producer Yamamoto says: We've mainly buffed up his normals, and he can do solid combos with the addition of chains. Also, His Trinity Geyser's hitbox has been changed, and he can also hit the opponent afterwards at the corner. Goro - Crouching C's recovery time has been shortened. - Kirikabugaeshi's recovery time on a whiff has been shortened. Doesn't cause a knockback when blocked. * EX Chou Ukemi can be canceled with a special during movement. Meaning that Goro can go straight into a throw from his invincible roll. * Kirikabugaeshi and Kumotsukaminage can be drive canceled. * A super cancel version of Jigoku-Gokurakuotoshi has been added to the game. * EX Chou Oosotogari's recovery time on a whiff has been shortened. Producer Yamamoto says: As a judo fighter, we've strengthened his grab attacks. You need to super cancel, but he can combo his Jigoku-Gokurakuotoshi from all sorts of grab attacks. He can even do HD combos with just grab attacks, so please try them out. Joe * Ex Screw Upper will stay in position when it hits. With this change, Joe can't be punished afterward when he hits the opponent with it at the corner. * Sliding can be canceled with his Bakuretsuken. But not with any other specials. * Hit detection will remain on the opponent after his sliding hits. Again, it can't be canceled with anything but his Bakuretsuken, but he can go into HD mode from the slide. * Slash Kick can be drive canceled. - EX Tiger Kick comes out faster. Has strong invincibility forwards. - Screw Straight comes out faster. It has no invincibility and it has the same shot number limit as projectiles. (No explanation on what this means. It may mean that you can't do it while there's a projectile on the screen.) Producer Yamamoto says: He can actually juggle other attacks aside from his Bakuretsuken after his slide so please try them from going into HD mode from his slide and whatnot. Also, his EX Screw Upper has been changed so you can use it at the corner without worrying. He does things a bit differently on a Max Cancel too. Ryo - Ryo travels more forward on Ko'ouken. * Joudannuke and Gedannuke is faster (shorter overall frames). Gedannuke in particular is very fast and it can even be used for strings. * Fierce Zanretsuken recovers faster on a hit. It can connect to a weak Zanretsuken at the corner. * Standalone Hyouchuuwari (meaning, not from cancel) comes out faster. - Weak Koho's rising time/hit detection time has been shortened. But the move itself is faster, so it can be used for more occasions. * Weak Koho can be drive canceled and used for a juggle. - Haou Shoukouken comes out faster. It can be comboed from a fierce, or even be used as an anti-projectile. Producer Yamamoto says: We've mainly buffed up his defense, and it brings justice to his nickname "The invincible dragon". Ryo's unique moves, the Joudannuke and Gedannuke, have been extremely changed. His Gedannuke's is especially fast, and aside from using it for defense, it can also be used to shorten his recovery on attacks. His Weak Koho's motion is also faster than before, and it can be used in HD combos. Andy Bogard * Normal/high jump D has better hitbox for use in crossups. * Close C hits twice. The first hit has no knockback so his Hirate Uchi (forward + A) will combo without whiffing. * B>D is a chain combo. Can be canceled. * Chou Reppadan's damage has been increased from 162 to 198. - EX Kuhadan's invincibility has been taken out. * Chou Shin Soku Zan'eiken (Neomax) comes out faster. Producer Yamamoto says: We've focused on buffing him up around his cancelable chains, two hit C, and crossups. In particular, you no longer have to worry about his Hirate Uchi whiffing from close C. His Neomax is very fast so please check it out. Athena * Phoenix Bomb (from Cancel) has a different trajectory from arcade version and hits a crouching opponent as a combo from a fierce. * Weak Phoenix Arrow has shorter recovery, but it also causes a shorter Hitstun to the opponent. * EX Psycho Teleport can be canceled with a special or super during motion. The Arcade version only allowed drive canceling near the end of the move, but it's not as limite‚„ and it's also a normal cancel now. - Standing CD comes out faster. * Athena doesn't move back when doing her Shining Crystal Bit any more. Producer Yamamoto says: Weak Phoenix Arrow has been balanced so that it can't be punished with normal moves on a block. Together Since there's less worries about being punished, it might be effective to use it with her buffed up Phoenix bomb, There's other changes that Athena users should be happy about, like her standing CD and her Shining Crystal Bit. Iori * Geshiki Kui (FD + C) has larger hitbox than before. Easier to attack opponent from his command throw. * Fierce Shogetsu moves more forward. It hits in most situations after close C> Yumebiki(F + A A) is done. * Yaotome (including EX) can't be saferolled after it hits. * EX Shogetsu's invinciblity has been taken out. However, he's still invincible on his legs. - Fierce Akegarasu has shorter recovery when blocked. Can't be punished with normal moves. Producer Yamamoto says: With Fierce Shogetsu's longer reach and Fierce Akegarasu's shorter recovery, it's easier to do strings and combos. His Yaotome can't be saferolled so attacking on wakeups may become important. With his EX Akegarasu's projectile invincibility and EX Yaotome's long invincibility, we've designed him to be playable in a different style from Flame Iori. Enjoy this Claw Iori that's a bit different from the arcade version. Edited October 20, 2011 by omegaryuji
Hecatom Posted October 20, 2011 Author Posted October 20, 2011 http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=OmpqmRrThe0 edit just noticed that omegaryuji posted the traduction, so im just gonna leave the video
Mightfo Posted October 22, 2011 Posted October 22, 2011 In the recent Atlus online test thing, Im pretty sure mai was able to end her hissatsu shinobi Bachi(the cartwheel thing) early. :o Rekka mixup? excitteeeeddd
Vulcan422 Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 It sucks that they're not using the arrange versions for the old tracks. I'm going to hate hearing the bad MIDI quality of the Neo Geo soundboard. Only good soundtracks that utilized the board to its full potential were Mark of the Wolves, Samurai Shodown, and Last Blade IMO. Still, this is one badass compilation. A whole bunch of the best shit the Neogeo Music Performance Group ever made.
article 12 Posted October 27, 2011 Posted October 27, 2011 playlist of my epically long casual matches play of the console version of KOF13, taken from Take all comers a london tourny that happened last month. it features some of the best of the London scene. http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLE63AA707B80C8FF9
Tsuki Garyuu Posted October 30, 2011 Posted October 30, 2011 An hour-half of freeplay. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGGNbDsRlAw
Bolverk-GTM Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 Console changes, part 3! First, the NESTS Kyo palette, now the Orochi Saga Kyo palette and we still have '98 Iori on the way for console releases? I can almost overlook the absence of Vanessa now. Almost....
Starlight777 Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 First, the NESTS Kyo palette, now the Orochi Saga Kyo palette and we still have '98 Iori on the way for console releases? I can almost overlook the absence of Vanessa now. Almost.... Wow you just made me notice again that this game has no boxer. No Vanessa, no Heavy D, not one at all. I'm glad I got to see someone use Saiki. Both him and Billy had gone mostly unnoticed despite being new characters. I also wished people wouldn't use K' and Robert in almost every team. Oh well, it's still better than seeing Raiden's fat ass in every match.
Hecatom Posted November 2, 2011 Author Posted November 2, 2011 (edited) System Changes Part 4 http://www.mmcafe.com/ Changes System Changes -Backstep turns to aerial state in 1 frame. Backstepping can be used as a way to evade attacks on wakeup. -The guard meter’s recovery timing and recovery speed has been changed. Compared ot the arcade, it starts to recover sooner after blocking an attack, but its pace of recovery is slower. KENSOU - [Featured in video] EX Ryuusougeki(qcb+AC in air) has faster startup. - [Featured in video] st.B> st.C has been added in as a chain combo. A followup can be done when it hits. - [Featured in video] Shinryuu Seikoushou(qcf,hcb+P) has been changed to a 1F throw - [Featured in video] Ryuusougeki(qcb+P in air)’s recovery frames can be canceled with specials and higher - [Featured in video] Chokyudan(qcb+P) has faster recovery. Producer Yamamoto says- Kensou’s Shinryuu Seikoushou(qcf,hcb+P) can be useful not just to break through the opponent, but also to punish opponents that have rolled through his projectile. His projectile itself has faster recovery, so you should be able to use that as a main weapon. His Ryuusougeki(qcb+P in air) can be followed up with various specials, and the stB>st.C chain can be followed up with attacks like his cr.B and st.D. By using them together with his projectile, you can fight in a style with distance in your mind. YURI - [Featured in video] Kuuga(dp+P)’s travel distance and falling trajectory has been changed - [Featured in video] Houyoku(dp+K)’s followup with Tsubame Otoshi(AC) has “anywhere juggle” detection (it hits regardless of the opponent’s state) - [Featured in video] Jump A can be canceled with Yuri Raijinkyaku(df.B). - [Featured in video] Weak Hyakuretsu Binta(hcb+B) has been changed to a throw. - [Featured in video] Hyakuretsu Binta(hcb+K) can be drive canceled. However, not the EX version. - Standing B has faster Startup. - Jump CD’s hit detection stays out longer. - Yuri Raijinkyaku(df.B in air)’s executable height limit has been eased. - EX Hyakuretsu Binta has shorter invincibility after its attack detection comes out. - Haou Shoukouken has faster recovery. Producer Yamamoto says- Depending on the button you press, her Hyakuretsu Binta(hcb+K) functions as a 1F throw, running grab, or an invincible hit attack, so you’ll need to use them according to the situation. It becomes a powerful weapon if you can use them accordingly. Also, the biggest change we made to her is the Houyoku(dp+K)> Tsubame Otoshi(AC) which now has anywhere juggle detection. Use it in all sorts of situations to do additional damage! MAXIMA - [Featured in video] Maxima drops on the spot after his Air Vapor Cannon(qcb+P) - [Featured in video] When the opponent’s attack gets blocked with the autoguard on his normal moves, he can cancel his normal move before it comes out. - [Featured in video] Followup hitbox on EX Maxima Press(hcb+BD) has been buffed. He can now follow up after a counter with his CD attack. - EX Maxima Press does not open distance when blocked. Easier to get punished than before. - M9 Missile(df.C) has faster recovery. Producer Yamamoto says- The M9 Missile(df.C) has faster recovery so it’s easier to use it as an early anti-air. If his M9 Missile or jump CD hits as a counter, he can follow up with an EX Maxima Press. It’ll be ideal to confirm counters for additional damage and to apply pressure on your opponent. DUOLON - [Featured in video] EX Genmuken(f.AC) knocks back opponent for a longer time on a hit. It can be followed up with attacks like a fierce punch or weak Juon Shikon(qcb+P). - [Featured in video] EX Shakijuuryuu(qcf+P) can be canceled with specials and higher. - [Featured in video] Juon Shikon(qcb+P)’s frames have been tweaked. The weak version comes out faster than before so it’s easier to use for strings and combos. - [Featured in video] Genmukyaku(f.K) can be canceled with supers(DMs) and higher. - Neomax’s damage has been increased from 400>448. Producer Yamamoto says- Genmukyaku(f.K) can be used by itself and canceled into a super, and it can also be useful for hit confirming during a combo from a Genmuken (f.P > qcf+K> f.K > DM). It’s become easier to place his projectile, so try using it after a move so you can attack together with it. KIM - [Featured in video] Ex Hishoukyaku has faster recovery. He can follow up with a normal move. - [Featured in video] Yopuchagi(f,f.A)’s hitbox has been enlarged and it hits crouching opponents in hitstun state. - [Featured in video] Weak air Hangetsuzan(qcb+B in air) hits crouching opponents in hitstun state. However, the move’s hitbox is shorter in its upper side when compared to the arcade version. - [Featured in video] EX air Hououkyaku(qcb,hcf+BD) has been added to game. Only has a few frames of invincibility after hit detection comes out. - Hangetsuzan(qcb+K) has slower recovery. - Houou Hitenkyaku(qcfx2+K) has acts a bit differently than before. Both weak and fierce have slower recovery on a whiff. .Weak ver: Has invincibility, thrusts opponent forward .Fierce ver: No invincibility, thrusts opponent vertically - Weak Hienzan(d.u+K) has less invincibility. Also, it only gives Kim invincivility on the upper half of his body. Producer Yamamoto says- His Hangetsuzan(qcb+K) has slower recovery and it’s punishable on block, so be careful. On the other hand, his Yopuchagi(f,f.A) hits crouching opponents that are in hitstun, and his EX Hangetsuzan can be followed up with a Yopuchagi even from the middle of the screen, so you an do combos regardless of the opponent’s state and distance. Unlike before, use various moves and keep on the offense! K’ - [Featured in video] EX Iron Trigger(qcf+AC) > EX Second Shoot(f.B) acts a bit differently than before. The projectile gradually becomes faster and hits two times. - [Featured in video] Air Minutes Spike(qcb+K) has anywhere juggle detection. (it hits regardless of the opponent’s state) - [Featured in video] EX Air Minutes Spike(qcb+BD) has faster recovery. - [Featured in video] EX Chain Drive(qcf,hcb+AC) has anywhere juggle detection. (it hits regardless of the opponent’s state) - Jump B, Jump D’s hitbox and length of hit detection time has been changed. - Iron Trigger(qcf+P) has slower recovery. So does its followup attacks. - Narrow Spike(qcb+K after Minutes Spike) has slower recovery than arcade version when blocked. - Weak Crow Bites (dp+A) has shorter invincibility. Also, it only gives K’ invincivility to the upper half of his body. - Minutes Spike (including Air version) acts a bit differently than before. It comes out at a certain timing rather than the distance to the opponent. - Neomax is completely invincible. Producer Yamamoto says- He has a lot of nerfs, but he has new buffs like the anywhere juggle detection on his Air Minutes Spike and EX Chain Drive which will let him do additional damage. By taking advantage of opportunities and doing the additional damage, he should be able to cope for his nerfs. Also, his EX second Shoot was mostly used for zoning until now, but with its new change, you can take control of the battle from a far distance depending on how you use it. KULA - [Featured in video] Standing B moves more forward, so it has more reach than the arcade version. - [Featured in video] EX Rayspin(qcb+K) > Sit(f.D) has faster recovery. - [Featured in video] Freeze Execution (hcbx2+P) has better followup hitbox and comes out faster. - Slider Shoot (df.B) has faster recovery. - Invincibility has been taken out from EX Rayspin(qcb+BD). - EX Diamond Edge(qcfx2+AC) comes out faster. - EX Counter Shell(qcb+AC) has larger hitbox. Producer Yamamoto says- Her supers that use two meters have both been buffed up. Both of them makes Kula invincible so she can use it to interrupt the opponent’s strings or use them as an anti-air. She should be a character that uses a lot of power meter, so meter management will be vital for her. Her EX Counter Shell’s hitbox is bigger, so aiming for a counter with it and doing wire damage should be interesting as well. Edited November 2, 2011 by Hecatom
Mightfo Posted November 2, 2011 Posted November 2, 2011 The console changes seem quite awesome, except for the backstep change which seems like nonsense to me.
Koozebanian Fazoob Posted November 3, 2011 Posted November 3, 2011 The backstep thing is pretty interesting. I'm not sure how practical it will be, but it seems like a way to eat a single hit to avoid potential mixups or big damage combos you might take otherwise. On the flip side, lots of characters have good air-to-air combo options so it might be just a way to eat a free combo. Seems like it could change the oki game pretty heavily depending ...
Mightfo Posted November 3, 2011 Posted November 3, 2011 (edited) The backdash thing just seems silly to me. I dont see the benefits of having that there. Oh, I hit him, time to combo-wait, what? My command normal/special followup whiffed? it seems to me that it limits heavily what you can use as a wakeup meaty, since it will need to be something that you can reliably link and hitconfirm after as opposed to cancelling. Otherwise, you have to choose between getting damage if they hit a button and following up if they air recovered after a backdash. It doesnt even really beat things besides throws, it just..makes it to where the person on oki can't reliably get more than one hit of damage/pursuit. it seems to me that it may just homogenize some things without really adding a good defensive choice. But maybe i'm misunderstanding how air juggles and stuff work in this game or whatever. I hope im wrong, and i may very well be. Edited November 3, 2011 by Mightfo
A.B.A-can-do Posted November 4, 2011 Posted November 4, 2011 Air juggles aren't really a big part of KoF. KoF is more ground oriented game in terms of combos with juggles being more ground based. Backdash invulnerability I believe is there to fix the overall high damage situations of meaty sweep or wake up throw/Dp. Since in general that seemed really strong in the arcade videos from a while back. Don't quote me on any of this though.
Koozebanian Fazoob Posted November 4, 2011 Posted November 4, 2011 When you normally connect air-to-air (including against a back step), it does not leave them in a free-juggle state and only gives you a very short period of time before they recover. However, you can still connect with a fast anywhere-juggle move. So for example, Takuma could do c.C 646PP and that will combo. Also just FYI, on air-to-air CH you DO get a free-juggle state and a lot more time to connect something. In general, getting yourself in the air is really good to avoid BIG damage. Where I disagree, is that I think that actually WILL be a very good defensive option. Take a little damage to avoid potential nasty mixups altogether and get away? That seems like it could be really useful in certain matchups or situations to me. It can be better than Roll because you can't beat it with really simple OSs, and it can be better than GC Attack or GC Roll because it doesn't cost meter and you don't have to block anything to use it. You should also be able to use it as another way to avoid throws ala Guilty Gear. On the flip side, it will probably be entirely useless in the corner as it will just give you a free hit and another free pressure. If you knew it was coming, some characters can get free big damage, others could easily follow in and just get another mixup even at midscreen. I think it sounds pretty interesting, we'll have to see how it works out.
Mightfo Posted November 4, 2011 Posted November 4, 2011 (edited) I feel like most characters will just respond to this with 1-2 meaty jabs into a shorthop pursuit or something. You're paying like 4% life and backing yourself in the corner more in exchange for reducing their oki to something less interesting, like a shorthop into a string or something. It just feels artificial and silly, as opposed to "Oh, I made a good guess on wakeup and got out of pressure." It doesnt seem overpowered because of jabs etc, but it just doesnt create some sort of interesting new situation like a fun defensive option would. Its just Nope! Make midscreen knockdown mean less and more homogeneous for 4% life! I dont see how this contributes to the game. But I might just not be thinking about this right. Edited November 4, 2011 by Mightfo
Koozebanian Fazoob Posted November 4, 2011 Posted November 4, 2011 I'm not sure how scoring a free hit is going to make your pressure/mixup after it more homogenized, if anything it would make oki overall less homogenous because you have another situation to potentially deal with, and more tools to consider using. For example, you can do a pretty standard KOF style mixup which is to oki with a jump in normal, then immediately after you land, you sj or hh again and do another air normal. This will work against either a block OR if you hit the backdash. If they decided to backdash, it just means they ate free damage and now have to deal with that same overhead anyway. And as normal, you can always not do the second air normal and instead land and do a Low/Throw OS to punish rolls or high blocks. So you can get your mixup and OSs and everything even if they backdashed the first time. Also if you KNOW someone is going to try to backdash out, many characters have options to punish it for free. I mentioned before, Takuma can do something like, j.C |> 646PP x 63214K ... which leads to 50%+ life combos. Daimon can do something like j.CD, run up into 41236C which again, leads to big 50%+ combos. Elizabeth and anyone else with fast juggle-anytime moves can do stuff like that. Got a safe special that can lead into damage even on air hit? Probably still works just as well as before as oki. I'd use K`s Minute Spike here as an example but that got nerfed a bit so it's not safe anymore AFAIK. A better example might be something like Ralf's [4]6A, which on hit can be easily hit confirmed into 236236P at mid or 214C in the corner. And there are even more possibilities when you consider specials that you can just make safe via DC. Also I might add that if you use j.CD as your jump in oki, those knock WAY back and you can react to a hit and follow up as well. Roll recovering one of those makes you travel... more than half the entire stage length? Very easy to put someone into the corner with that, and that's not a place you want to be. Also FYI, most jumping heavies are in the range of 70-100 damage, which is 7-10%. Now that might not seem like a lot, but eating a free 7% life and just getting put back into a mixup, or worse, seems like a pretty heavy drawback to me. So to me it seems like it can be anywhere from, "I made a good guess and took only a little damage and now I'm at neutral", to "I made a bad guess and took free damage and now I'm right back where I was", to "I made a bad guess and the other guy made a good guess and now I'm dead." In any event, it doesn't seem nearly as simple as you are thinking it is right now.
Mightfo Posted November 4, 2011 Posted November 4, 2011 Yeah, you're right. Thanks. if anything it would make oki overall less homogenous because you have another situation to potentially deal with, and more tools to consider using. I was thinking of it as "Oh, it will pigeonhole you into using these options which are already used a lot" but I wasnt thinking about enough things.
omegaryuji Posted November 4, 2011 Posted November 4, 2011 (edited) Yeah, the backdash thing shouldn't be too bad, since it's still not invincible at all. Just gets out of throws and really low hitbox moves like cr.B's or Goro's ground pound. My main worry is if it'll let characters like Kyo and Athena get fullscreen backdashes that are too fast to reliably punish by canceling into aerial command moves (annoying enough when Iori does this in older games with 3 frame ground startup on backdash), even though I plan on using NESTS Kyo myself *laughs* . Also, hopefully it doesn't let people cancel into instant divekicks that are also advantage on block from being so low (though I honestly never tried canceling the old backdashes with a dive kick...should check it to see how the momentum works out). But yeah, people mashing backdash on wakeup will be punishable, such as eating meaty C/D for okay damage and quick cornering and potential aerial reset into meaty mixup, having to deal with ambiguous meaty crossups, getting oki'ed by safe antiairs that can be comboed off (Kyo's 236K [especially if NESTS Kyo still has the old version with delayable 2nd kick], Liz's 623P, etc.), meaty j.CD (particularly if the character also has a midrange anywhere juggle), and so on. Nice that these options also cover things if they don't backdash, too, huh? Especially since certain DPs are getting nerfed back to the old KOF style (ie. weak versions only having upper body invincibility and/or tending to trade with meaties). I'm not a big fan of it and think that the old backdashes were fine, but it's not looking gamebreaking at my first glance. The thing I'm sad about is that it really limits using delayed grabs for oki pressure, and just when I was really getting really hype about Clark having a better version of his old frankensteiner with the guardpoint SAB. Ah well, at least it'll give a chance to get oki air throws *laughs* Edited November 4, 2011 by omegaryuji
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