Standing Reset or Launch and Finish the Combo?

[dragontamer]

Hey, I'm a Noel main, but I think this question would apply in general to any character...

I've been experimenting with a few Chain Revolver combos that leave the opponent in a standing state. ie: 5D -> d.6A -> d.6C -> d.5C -> super-jump -> j.D -> d.5A -> d.6A -> d.6C -> 214A. These combos generally do less damage than Noel's BnB combos, but because the opponent is never launched... it seems like they offer good reset opportunities.

For example, d.5A -> d.6B is a reset overhead with a 1-frame hole (beating 360A, Bang 2D, Bang 5A etc. etc. But loses to true DPs, 720C and reversal supers). The resulting combo will do ~2.5k damage or so. There is also the d.5A -> d.6D for a reset low with a 6-frame hole.

Going for the launcher would net ~3.5k damage (5D d.6A d.6C d.6D d.2D 623D (launched) -> 66C blah blah). Going for the reset goes for ~2.3k damage, and then nets another 2.5k damage + Oki (both for the high and the low) if the reset is successful. So I'm risking 1000 damage, for a potential gain of ~1000 damage off of a high/low mixup.

Of course, the risk is that the opponent will Dragon Punch / Reversal during the reset. And another risk is that they'll block it correctly and thus I gained nothing... On the other hand, even if they do block it correctly, it forces the opponent to be cautious during my combo strings.

Currently, I'm thinking that I should reset often enough to make sure my opponent is always cautious... but I should prefer to do the "real" full damage combo most often. That way, he's always looking at the combo, trying to block the whole string correctly and never really gets any mental rest throughout the game.

I'm curious what your guys opinions are on this: especially the Carl players who seem to deal with this issue all the time.

[LordSpectreX]

Depends on a few things, as you pointed out. Wherever the opponent has a DP, if they're good at blocking etc.

Another thing to take into account is playstyle, of both you and your opponent. Pressure based characters want to stay close, therefore reset, while Zoning characters want the enemy away from them. So i.e, if you're fighting Arakune, a zoning character for the majority of his playtime, then he wants to get away from Noel, a pressure character. In this case, reseting may cause more problems to Arakune than pushing him away, allowing him to set traps.

Just theory fighter, but that's another thing to take into consideration.

[whitevoid]

The main issue I'd have with deliberately missing the combo in this situation is that you have to assume that they'll at least block it. d.6B just isn't ridiculously fast or anything and logically there aren't many things that make sense for the opponent to do. It doesn't really make sense for them to be mashing buttons on a standing combo, sometimes it works but most of the time if they drop it, blocking the move is plenty good. This puts you in a bad situation because at the very best you opted out of damage. And sure, we can discuss DPing or whatever, but most of the time good people will block when they are attacked. If they do something else it's either because they know, which is bad, or they don't so they are just panicking.

This is not to say, don't do it or try it, but it's not a stable thing to do. It's just very gimmicky. Like, I hit with Assault Through plenty of times, but once someone shows me they can block it, I have to stop.

Now this works fine with Carl and Tager, but that's because of what happens when they block. Blocking against Tager? Obviously, this makes you very vulnerable to being thrown. And with Carl due to the nature of Nirvana, his options and his strength of his options are much much bigger than in this case.

I'm pretty sure that this is the correct answer, i.e. unless you are really good at punishing blocking generically (and the 6D/6B mix-up is insufficient), then go for the guaranteed damage. Aside from BB and GG, I mostly play(ed) Tekken and so this sort of situation is pretty much ubiquitous to all characters, and you almost never omit damage for a standing mix-up. Lowering damage for Wakes is different, but it's pretty clear that great jab strings are so much better than doing a jab into some mix-up.

[Mekki-Maru]

Pretty much what whitevoid said. Unless it's a really good reset or oki setup, I always take the damage.

[dragontamer]

The main issue I'd have with deliberately missing the combo in this situation is that you have to assume that they'll at least block it. d.6B just isn't ridiculously fast or anything and logically there aren't many things that make sense for the opponent to do. It doesn't really make sense for them to be mashing buttons on a standing combo, sometimes it works but most of the time if they drop it, blocking the move is plenty good. This puts you in a bad situation because at the very best you opted out of damage. And sure, we can discuss DPing or whatever, but most of the time good people will block when they are attacked. If they do something else it's either because they know, which is bad, or they don't so they are just panicking.

This is not to say, don't do it or try it, but it's not a stable thing to do. It's just very gimmicky. Like, I hit with Assault Through plenty of times, but once someone shows me they can block it, I have to stop.

Now this works fine with Carl and Tager, but that's because of what happens when they block. Blocking against Tager? Obviously, this makes you very vulnerable to being thrown. And with Carl due to the nature of Nirvana, his options and his strength of his options are much much bigger than in this case.

I'm pretty sure that this is the correct answer, i.e. unless you are really good at punishing blocking generically (and the 6D/6B mix-up is insufficient), then go for the guaranteed damage. Aside from BB and GG, I mostly play(ed) Tekken and so this sort of situation is pretty much ubiquitous to all characters, and you almost never omit damage for a standing mix-up. Lowering damage for Wakes is different, but it's pretty clear that great jab strings are so much better than doing a jab into some mix-up.

Hmm, obviously Carl's and Tager's mixups are better, Carl having pseudo-unblockables and Tager being able to punish blockers with grabs. Throwing d.6C in there punishes bursted opponents with 2 primers (d.6C -> 623D for guard break), but that is a very specific situation indeed, and can be barriered to protect against the guard break.

Thanks for your opinions. Are there any exceptions to the rule? I mean, its pretty obvious that if the "optimal combo" did only 100 more damage than the mixup combo, and the mixup can add 3000 damage... you might as well do the combo into mixup (as long as the opponent isn't punishing with reversals of course). Is there some threshold that would make the standing reset mixup better than the optimal combo?

[evilben]

id say it depends on the character you are playing, and the combo you are doing. the best example is if you are playing a zoner (kune/lambda/etc) and your normal combo would knock them far away, id go for something that leaves you closer to them to keep up the pressure.

other than that, id say go for the dmg. i think we've all had those matches where we should have won them but lost with the opponent having like 100hp. every hit of guaranteed damage counts! i would throw it in every once in a while to mix things up but i wouldnt rely on it (especially if your opponent has a good reversal!)

[whitevoid]

I'd say it's a matter of the opponent's play primarily. If someone is generically having a problem with mix-ups, then they'll likely have a problem with this one as well. If they are in a panic mode because you are in the lead, you can also read off of that and feel out if they get better or worse. For instance, if I get frustrated you can hit me with pretty much anything. Other people might play looser when they are up so it's the opposite.

To be honest, I haven't really messed around with your set-ups too much as I was trying to get some other combos down, so I can't say specifically. I remember the most interesting of them was actually your d.6B +4 frames oki on emergency tech, much better than a canned mix-up in my opinion though you're sacrificing a bit of damage. You get counter throws if they try to poke (and green throws if they block) and it's easy to bait out moves, not to mention you beat out a variety of incorrect teching options. Another thing Tekken taught me is that wake-ups > mix-ups (fucking True Ogre bullshit). Waking up correctly requires very specific narrow knowledge, blocking mid-low is very general and broad.

But I don't think there is a hardline threshold. Whatever works use it. Just because something is a lesser tool, doesn't mean that it shouldn't be used. I mean, I said jab strings are better than jab into mix-up, but it's not like people *don't* do that. It's just a lesser tool. I think the distinction here is one is strategic, and the other is tactical. You use a good tactic because you are trying to maneuver around your opponent in terms of a thinking reacting being. This means that you can take sub-optimal plays because it hits them in a blindspot. You think that they are not going to see that mix-up or whatever. But you use a good strategy because it is optimal, and thus by nature generally extremely risk adverse. Why let give your opponent a chance to take less damage or damage you at all?

[BigLeafyTree]

It's risk vs reward and that changes depending on who you're playing.

Resets are better if it's also mixup (high/low/throw/crossup/unblockable/etc) so the opponent has to register that you dropped the combo AND THEN defend properly.

It also depends on how much damage the combo will do guaranteed vs how much the reset might do. For example, going for a reset off of a sweet Fatal Counter combo is a dumb idea, while going for a reset off of a combo started with a heavily prorated move is a good idea.

An example of a character that should go for resets a lot is Carl. If you're sandwiched between Carl and Nirvana, he can drop combos late into the combo after already squeezing out a bunch of damage. Once he does drop it he can use his killer sandwich mixup to reset for good damage and without much risk.

An example of a character that shouldn't go for resets is Hakumen. His combos would have to be reset very early before getting much damage in and it's giving up the guaranteed damage you would have done for so-so mixup.

[ZONG_one]

In response to thread title, not OP, I'm too lazy to read it.

It's as simple as "do you think your opponent is going to block your reset, or not?"

Of course it goes a little deeper than that.

But you're obviously playing catchup, or want to clinch the win/make your opponent waste a burst if you're thinking about a reset anyway.

...unless they're a scrub and you're just being an dick trying to demoralize them.

[Synthesis]

Personally, always go for the reset if it is a strong one. Example of a good reset would be CT Rachel's corner 5CDC 214A 3C(1 hit) 236A 6A BBL walk back 214B (watch for tech) 214A2D 236A (214B 214A2D 236A)xN for stupidity if they neutral or back tech and just use 5B if they forward tech.

[dragontamer]

Personally, always go for the reset if it is a strong one. Example of a good reset would be CT Rachel's corner 5CDC 214A 3C(1 hit) 236A 6A BBL walk back 214B (watch for tech) 214A2D 236A (214B 214A2D 236A)xN for stupidity if they neutral or back tech and just use 5B if they forward tech.

That is more of an Oki game than Tech. Oki is almost always prefered over no-Oki, especially because all of Noel's most powerful combos end in Oki anyway. In a standing reset, your opponent never actually techs, because they were never launched.

This video here demonstrates a Standing Reset with CT Rachel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKnN211MXbU

Now, that video doesn't really describe my situation, because Noel doesn't have 3k+ combos that go into instant-overhead standing reset for another 5k damage or something. But it does show you the difference between "Standing Reset" and "Oki Game".

There were three combos.

1. 6B -> blah blah. This is how the Rachel starts the match.

2. j.2C 3D -> blah blah. Alzarath resets the opponent with a very fast overhead. The opponent was blocking low, and thus was punished.

3. Combo finally ends. Alzarath starts a new combo with the pumpkin for the win.

Combo 2 was a reset. Combo 3 was Oki. What you were describing was Oki. What I'm asking is an opinion on resets.

[whitevoid]

They are the same thing in principle. If you want to argue semantics, it's really moot as his point would remain the same. Technically, I don't think most people would call a standing combo cut into a mix-up a reset. They'd just call it a mix-up. Generally, I've always thought of resets more like what Synthesis is calling it, loops that don't combo.

But this is all semantics, and that's a discussion for scholars not fighters.

[bbq sauce]

Dropping combos into a mixup has been known as a reset since Marvel. -__________-

Outside of Magneto doing a 4 way off his ROM and a few other select instances across various games, most resets are fairly gimmicky, but, do work if you don't overuse them.

TBH the better question, instead of "is this worth it" is "why the fuck not just do it and see how you fair?"

[LordSpectreX]

Dropping combos into a mixup has been known as a reset since Marvel. -__________-

Outside of Magneto doing a 4 way off his ROM and a few other select instances across various games, most resets are fairly gimmicky, but, do work if you don't overuse them.

TBH the better question, instead of "is this worth it" is "why the fuck not just do it and see how you fair?"

I have my own fair? Awesome. Do people have to pay a fare?

[ZONG_one]

I have my own fair? Awesome. Do people have to pay a fare?

Jesus Christ...

/facepalm.

[STenSatsu]

I think in your specific case I would suggest just finishing the combo. The overhead you are using (most people are going to simply hold downback and react to highs during a combo) isn't super fast or subtle and you are only getting an extra like 1k or so if the reset works. Unless you would kill with the reset but not with the combo, I'd say don't bother outside of maybe once or twice. Especially if your main combo gives you oki. What I would suggest if you want to use it is do it once or twice early into the low and then try to win a round/match by going into the high version. Most overheads in BB are easy to block on reaction though which makes this sort of thing much less effective outside of Carl/Cursakune since they get to mixup safely thanks to their mechanics. In general, the only general reset options I like are air tech traps to catch them if they don't tech with barrier or to throw them out of the tech asap.

[bbq sauce]

I have my own fair? Awesome. Do people have to pay a fare?

Oh shit. I confused two synonyms. Clearly, what I said about fighting games, has become irrelevant, due to my minor grammar error.

[LordSpectreX]

Oh shit. I confused two synonyms. Clearly, what I said about fighting games, has become irrelevant, due to my minor grammar error.

Well, when you put it like that. You make it seem unimportant.

Jokes aside, I think he's asking if it's appropiate to get into a habit of resetting people on a daily basis. You're right, but I think he's concerned on making a bad habit out of it.

[ZONG_one]

Oh shit. I confused two synonyms. Clearly, what I said about fighting games, has become irrelevant, due to my minor grammar error.

Two homonyms.

Stay out of school, Jersey.

[Mr.Biscuits]

It's character and matchup specific me thinks.

If you play Arakune, you'd almost always want to go for a reset for bigger damage.

[dragontamer]

TBH the better question, instead of "is this worth it" is "why the fuck not just do it and see how you fair?"

Because I'm not so naiive to believe that my experiences are universal. A reset working on my opponent could be as simple as I'm not playing the right opponents: maybe I'm not playing against good enough opponents. Or maybe, my opponents aren't used to the strategy, and while the strategy works on ignorant opponents, it may not work on opponents who are knowledgable about the matchup.

Asking for the shared experiences of the members of this forum will take me closer to the ideal, more so than me winging it on my own.

I think in your specific case I would suggest just finishing the combo. The overhead you are using (most people are going to simply hold downback and react to highs during a combo) isn't super fast or subtle and you are only getting an extra like 1k or so if the reset works. Unless you would kill with the reset but not with the combo, I'd say don't bother outside of maybe once or twice. Especially if your main combo gives you oki. What I would suggest if you want to use it is do it once or twice early into the low and then try to win a round/match by going into the high version. Most overheads in BB are easy to block on reaction though which makes this sort of thing much less effective outside of Carl/Cursakune since they get to mixup safely thanks to their mechanics. In general, the only general reset options I like are air tech traps to catch them if they don't tech with barrier or to throw them out of the tech asap.

Thanks for your response. I'll keep that in mind.

On a side note: the overhead is both safer and faster than the low. Noel's low options are d.6D (26 frames and +11 frames if continuing Chain Revolver) and 214A (pseudo-low at ~30 frames and unsafe like hell). The overhead is 21 frames and +13 frames if continued into Chain Revolver.. Being in chain revolver... they both have similar options on block, ie: the good opponents are buffering a reversal on you now that they realize they're in a blockstring. At least d.6B can go into d.5A and screw up some people's timing (d.6B -> d.5A is a solid blockstring on normal block, but not d.6D -> d.5A).

Yes, Noel's low in Chain Revolver is as slow as Makoto's 2C.

I've also done some more experimentation with the reset btw, since I made this topic. I've figured out a way to combo into Midscreen Fenrir for 1k more damage (making the reset a total of 2k more damage if its successful, instead of just 1k more damage).

BTW: I do like the idea of saving the "switchup" for later, ie: the kill. Seems obvious in hindsight but I guess I always waste the "switch" early on, to get extra damage in. After that, the opponents figure out the high/low mixup and start reacting to it. Saving the high or low option for a win/loss situation should be a priority...

[The Noble Clap]

It depends on your character, their character, the ability to block of your enemy, and how many times you have done it before.

If finishing the combo would kill them and you aren't the thinking "lol astral tiem guise :3'' finish.

Otherwise if you reset don't be PREDICTABO.

[bbq sauce]

Two homonyms.

Stay out of school, Jersey.

Yo damn. I'm free as fuck with this English shit.

[Mr.Biscuits]

That's why I was so mindfucked when I found out you weren't Spanish...

[Alzarath]

... what?