[CPEX] Hakumen Gameplay Discussion

[Spark]

But you don't always get 6B CH. CH 6B mostly happens when the opponent mashes. Which good opponents won't do. I mean, it's good if you get a CH 6B, but it won't happen all the time. Maybe even rarely.

It might not be that rare if 6B is still low invincible on frame 1. As if there is even a 1F gap you can 6B in between their pressure or technically even on your wake up if they do a move that's foot attribute.

[toanenadiz]

um

wat

Looking back, that didn't get my point across like it should. I should stop posting so early in the day.

It looks like WolfCrimson figured out my point though so I guess it is fine then.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Why is it so advantegous for Hakumen to have knockdown everywhere?

Is he a rushdown character now, with the improved mix-up? o.o

isuna, why wouldn't a character want knockdown? What mixup options did you have in the old typical kishuu>enma combos?

Tsubaki is comboable anywhere with Hotaru, and only Hotaru.

My only major concern is the Hotaru and 6D nerf. Haku doesn't have the threat of hop hotaru to keep his opponents on their feet. And he can't react to highs and counter them anymore. You'd need to yomi that shit.

EDIT: This made me realize... Haku's become a more defense oriented character. At least whenever he doesn't have stars.

With the increased floating time it looks like hotaru is easier to follow up on FC now. But being defense oriented means you have THE BEST options on defense. That's the equivalent of saying Valkenhayn is a defensive character because if he's knocked down he has no choice but to block.

^Oh yeah, I forgot Hotaru could be used to follow up Tsubaki. I still don't see how spending 5 stars to perform a slower overhead that can be 2A'd on its startup is going to outweigh 6B though since it's faster and free (meaning it also avoids meter cooldown).

At first I thought 6B would suffer lower damage output as a trade off, but I just saw this combo:

CH 6B > 5C > Zantetsu > 2C > jump cancel stuff. Three mags, 4K. Delicious.

The problem with 6D isn't that you now have to "yomi it." Haku already had to do that when choosing which high or low counters, and when to do it (e.g., "What's his next attack in his string going to be? Which counter would be appropriate?"). The 10F startup makes it impossible to use in many situations where it was strong before. Literally finding enough time to perform a 6D is the main issue.

FINALLY someone who speaks sense here.

There is literally no use for 6d at all. I can't see a point where a 10 frame startup counter could be useful. And if I can use 6d to counter whatever it is, then they simply were being dumb lol.

But you don't always get 6B CH. CH 6B mostly happens when the opponent mashes. Which good opponents won't do. I mean, it's good if you get a CH 6B, but it won't happen all the time. Maybe even rarely. Whereas Tsubaki>Hotaru is guaranteed to combo, and is a more "offensive" overhead, since you can do it off a hop when applying pressure and those really throw the opponent off. And I bet it would do more damage than 6B CH. Now, if only JP Hakus show us them optimized mag-efficient combos...

About 6D: I'm sure there are gonna be instances when it's possible to use.

Good opponents mash. That's why frame traps exist.

I get what you mean here lol, and I find 6b most useful when your opponent is patient and won't hit buttons.

I just don't see guaranteed combo ability being worth a 5 star investment. Maybe if I had a rack of meter stocked, but outside of that it just seems too expensive.

Agreed, tsubaki followup being exclusive to hotaru is pretty lame. It means your opponent doesn't really have to worry about extra damage after it. The 600 damage buff is great, but I'd prefer if he had even a meterless followup for approx 3.5k or so.

Nope. Your job is to make them it's safe and then blow them up for it.

Yeah, starwise it looks like we're going to have to adjust to spending stars like water. No point in trying to grip onto every last star. Although I still like having spare stars so we'll see how much I will have after each combo.

Yea that'll be a huge adjustment for a lot of us.

Your way is the Scumbag Sword way. My way is the Just Sword way.

For real though, the problem is that Hotaru is nerfed. How are you gonna blow them up?

mAc'll just use 2c. And btw we have agito people.

It might not be that rare if 6B is still low invincible on frame 1. As if there is even a 1F gap you can 6B in between their pressure or technically even on your wake up if they do a move that's foot attribute.

Has it always been frame 1 foot invincible? I though it took a few frames before the invincibility became active.

[mAc Chaos]

Yup always been frame 1 invincible. I even used it on my wakeup sometimes to stuff people that love to spam 2A for oki lolol

Although technically that's not a low.

So uh.

Edited November 25, 2012 by mAc Chaos

[dioxideUniversa]

i don't remember where i saw it, but there was a video where someone did hop hotaru and the new jump thing for it (the supposed nerf) made him glide forward instead of just fall ready to be punished. I don't know if this means it's difficult to punish, but the player in the video didn't punish it at least.

and there's still agito to make it safe again, and as people have stated multiple times, meter is less of an object in this version as it was in others.

now where did we leave off on the video thread

also, spark posted about this before but here is really obvious kishuu going through burst: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSG59kxp2yQ#t=1m40s

Edited November 25, 2012 by dioxideUniversa

[WolfCrimson]

OK watching vid of Haku and I see him tack on a tsubaki at the end of the combo and it does whopping damage, does it have minimum damage now?

[Spark]

It might have minimum damage, but it's probably because it does a lot more damage now with the bonus of not being effected by character combo rate(60% in Hakumen's case).

[WolfCrimson]

Wait if that is the case then it's more worthwhile adding in moves that ignore the character combo rate such as Zansetsu(1) and Shippu as well.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Yup always been frame 1 invincible. I even used it on my wakeup sometimes to stuff people that love to spam 2A for oki lolol

Although technically that's not a low.

So uh.

6b doesn't exclusively work on moves that must be block by inputing 1, it's a move that has waist down invincibility. There's a difference, most 2a's (I'm guessing tage is an exception, ahven't checked) his below the waist, hence why 6b beats them.

i don't remember where i saw it, but there was a video where someone did hop hotaru and the new jump thing for it (the supposed nerf) made him glide forward instead of just fall ready to be punished. I don't know if this means it's difficult to punish, but the player in the video didn't punish it at least.

and there's still agito to make it safe again, and as people have stated multiple times, meter is less of an object in this version as it was in others.

now where did we leave off on the video thread

also, spark posted about this before but here is really obvious kishuu going through burst: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSG59kxp2yQ#t=1m40s

Yes it's absolutely projectile invincible. Check out the video I'm about to post from nico.

OK watching vid of Haku and I see him tack on a tsubaki at the end of the combo and it does whopping damage, does it have minimum damage now?

Yea I figured that's why they gave tsubaki increased damage.

It might have minimum damage, but it's probably because it does a lot more damage now with the bonus of not being effected by character combo rate(60% in Hakumen's case).

yea came to the same conclusion.

Wait if that is the case then it's more worthwhile adding in moves that ignore the character combo rate such as Zansetsu(1) and Shippu as well.

huh?

Check out this video guys: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm19437283 skip to 18:38 for hakumen, and at 21:12 kishin 5k corner combo off of a 5c overdrive cancel. Sick shit, getting excited, can't lie. The more I find stuff to be unhappy about, Hakumen does something new to get me hype.

[WolfCrimson]

huh?

It was mentioned in the proration frame data spark posted; Zantetsu(1), Tsubaki and Shippu ignore character combo rate. What I meant was that it's more worthwhile to spend stars on these moves in combos (even if late into the combo) to get extra damage.

[dioxideUniversa]

I think PRFArmy switched to Azrael ):

Check out this video guys: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm19437283 skip to 18:38 for hakumen, and at 21:12 kishin 5k corner combo off of a 5c overdrive cancel. Sick shit, getting excited, can't lie. The more I find stuff to be unhappy about, Hakumen does something new to get me hype.

This video is on youtube (and in the video thread) now: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cr0zFRA0gzs#t=7m10s (part in question)

total damage was 5813 for 10 stars and OD

Edited November 26, 2012 by dioxideUniversa

[WolfCrimson]

Do Hotaru and Tsubaki still have their bonus proration or was it removed as well?

[Schneider-X]

Did Hakumen just jump cancel 6B at the end of the round in this video? Or did the round end cause the second hit to whiff for some reason?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIAjfWHa9pM&feature=plcp#t=7m22s

[mAc Chaos]

He RC'd it.

[dioxideUniversa]

Do Hotaru and Tsubaki still have their bonus proration or was it removed as well?

idk but hotaru has much lower P2 as i recall

here's a bunch of fun snippets:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Yg4XXUwR9M#t=15m30s 5c Renka(2) dealing 3k midscreen with no ender

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Yg4XXUwR9M#t=82m50s 2a purple ??? may only work if they aren't hitting barrier tho

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Yg4XXUwR9M#t=84m35s damaagggeeee.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Yg4XXUwR9M#t=86m31s CH 3c -> 2.7k with Gurren only

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFdJBQfyFKg#t=7m11s corner carry combo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFdJBQfyFKg#t=57m36s CH 6b -> 4.2k with Zantetsu only

guys i want this version

Edited November 26, 2012 by dioxideUniversa

[Dream Maker]

idk but hotaru has much lower P2 as i recall

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Yg4XXUwR9M#t=15m30s 5c Renka(2) dealing 3k midscreen with no ender

Thanks, that's what I was looking for. The j2A, land, guuren part is awesome. I think it may even work with 2C.

[Isuna]

Because having an option to put your opponent in a situation where he has limited options and where you have the time and advantage to setup a meaty or whatever is better than leaving him escape and go back to a neutral situation that you're not even guaranteed to win?

I don't see how this is even debatable, no matter how good or bad his mixups are.

isuna, why wouldn't a character want knockdown? What mixup options did you have in the old typical kishuu>enma combos?

Well, I am not particulary good or have the quickest eye, but is the frame advantage of Agito so good?

I guess it is very match-up dependent but, do I wanna risk eating a reversal on wake-up or go to neutral where I get free magatamas and more or less forces the opponent to attack me, where the range and defensive capabilities of Hakumen should come into play?

I understand that options are always good, but I thought Hakumen was supposed to shine in neutral and not in pressure?

There is literally no use for 6d at all. I can't see a point where a 10 frame startup counter could be useful. And if I can use 6d to counter whatever it is, then they simply were being dumb lol.

Is there any super with 10F start-up AFTER superflash?

And why would we counter that with 6D instead of 5D or 3C?

Can it work as a (bad) anti-air? o_O

[Warhound]

6D might as well make Hakumen pick his non-existent nose. All depends on the active frames though, if it goes away immediately like 2D does, instead of sticking around 5D's, then yeah, next to, if not completely useless.

Saw an interesting strategy in the vids posted here. Going into OD right at the beginning to bump up a few stars to work with? Don't know if it's worth it or not, how long until your burst/OD comes back? Or is it dependent on a factor like, getting it back faster the more you take hits?

[zdravkelja]

It isn't affected by anything. If you OD you lose 3/4 of the gauge, if you Burst you lose all of it. It recharges at fixed rate.

[Kriegdrache]

How long would a full health OD last? A couple seconds tops?

[zdravkelja]

5 secs I think.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Well, I am not particulary good or have the quickest eye, but is the frame advantage of Agito so good?

I guess it is very match-up dependent but, do I wanna risk eating a reversal on wake-up or go to neutral where I get free magatamas and more or less forces the opponent to attack me, where the range and defensive capabilities of Hakumen should come into play?

I understand that options are always good, but I thought Hakumen was supposed to shine in neutral and not in pressure?

Is there any super with 10F start-up AFTER superflash?

And why would we counter that with 6D instead of 5D or 3C?

Can it work as a (bad) anti-air? o_O

You're still not speaking making any sense Isuna, knockdown is knockdown, when your combo(s) end in knockdown near you, you get oki. If they might dp, bait it. You're making it sound like oki and knockdown is a stupid dangerous design because you might get hit by your opponent. Plus you don't even really have to spend stars on oki, since his grab game is even stronger than it was before thanks to kishuu and a much faster hop speed.

6D might as well make Hakumen pick his non-existent nose. All depends on the active frames though, if it goes away immediately like 2D does, instead of sticking around 5D's, then yeah, next to, if not completely useless.

Saw an interesting strategy in the vids posted here. Going into OD right at the beginning to bump up a few stars to work with? Don't know if it's worth it or not, how long until your burst/OD comes back? Or is it dependent on a factor like, getting it back faster the more you take hits?

Yea it's absolutely worthless, and I find players really have no respect for Hakumen's defense this time around, though I can't blame them. Unless they're for an obvious repetitive mid/low it's hard for him to punish their block strings.

It's even for to take some time to figure out how to counter bangs nail.

It isn't affected by anything. If you OD you lose 3/4 of the gauge, if you Burst you lose all of it. It recharges at fixed rate.

How long would a full health OD last? A couple seconds tops?

2-3 seconds approx.

[mAc Chaos]

Isuna's basically trying to say "I thought Hakumen was supposed to be a defensive character, not somebody who gets knockdown and goes for mixup."

It doesn't mesh with his older style but it's still a good thing to have advantage wise. Well, gotta take what you can get, anyway.

[BladeOfJustice7]

he's always had knockdown to some level though. Yes he doesn't have mixup options, and to some level they don't know how they want Hakumen to work as a character, fortunately he doesn't suck again.

But I don't feel having knockdown goes against his design, making 6d useless goes against his design.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Spark, it looks like something with regards to superflash has changed for yukikaze: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gu2_StrYtQE&feature=g-all-u @ 8:30, when it cuts deathspike.