[CPEX] Hakumen Gameplay Discussion

[BlackYakuzu94]

Since his voice is now that of the dark side, I've switched to spark colors, but I also use Purple Pimp and Baiken colors.

So, since we're talking about iterations of Hakumen we love and hate, what's your opinion on him from least favorite to Most favored version? Since this is only my second iteration playing this series, I can't really comment but I do have a slight preference for EX Haku; as fun as OD shenanigans are, I do miss our extremely solid defensive tools.

Edited November 28, 2013 by BlackYakuzu94

[BladeOfJustice7]

I don't think I'm at this point right now, but I can say CP Haku is my least favorite iteration. Even CSII Haku had more freedom despite being gimped. :/

Désolé Kirby, mais je suis d'accord avec Eb. CP Haku est trop one-trick pony pour être le fun.

Yea me playing good people from mtl, albeit it's been online, has made me like him less and less. My fav was CSEX hakumen, mundane combos but a good step in the right direction, if Hakumen in CSEX could do CP combos (excluding ODC combos) he'd be what I'd want.

But I know what you're saying. You need to show up moar, Eb! xD

Too broke to come buying CP was the last of my resources, which is why I've been job hunting like crazy.

I wouldn't say he's as devoid of enjoyment as CS2 Hakumen. I hated basically everything about that version.

CS2 Hkaumen lacked the only thing that CP Hakumen has; ridiculous explosive damage. Otherwise CS2 Hakumen wasn't that bad. That was his main issue. Everyone moved better than him had better neutral/offensive options than him and did better damage, so why use Hakumen. He's main tools are his solid neutral game, amazing defense and amazing damage output. CP Hakumen has none of that, he just has ridiculous damage output, kinda like CT Hakumen, except CP Hakumen was less ways of getting to deal all of that damage. So you're usually dead before you can even hit them, since you have no way fo getting in, or keeping them out.

VERSION WARS

CT Hakumen 2 good

I really love CP Hakumen taking cues from CT Hakumen in all honesty when it comes to combos, hard damage and fairly simple to deal.

I actually liked CS2 Hakumen. Although it is all kind of getting hazy. But I remember the main issue he had was no midscreen ability so you spent all your stars to get them in the corner, but you needed the stars for the corner combos.

Still, he had solid normals and hit like a truck in the corner, and 6D was lol since it did no damage but was still 1f.

The only problem CS2 Hakumen had, is the only thing CP Hakumen has going for him, explosive damage. They're polar opposites lol.

ALSO: did everybody start picking colors yet? Mine was easy as usual. Or do you have a favorite color from the other games?

No fighting game has ever given me trouble finding my color palette :3

Since his voice is now that of the dark side, I've switched to spark colors, but I also use Purple Pimp and Baiken colors.

So, since we're talking about iterations of Hakumen we love and hate, what's your opinion on him from least favorite to Most favored version? Since this is only my second iteration playing this series, I can't really comment but I do have a slight preference for EX Haku; as fun as OD shenanigans are, I do miss our extremely solid defensive tools.

I enjoyed CSEX the most and I'm REALLY not enjoying CP Hakumen as much as I didn't enjoy CS2 Hakumen.

[Raziul]

VERSION WARS

CT Hakumen 2 good

ALSO: did everybody start picking colors yet? Mine was easy as usual. Or do you have a favorite color from the other games?

They ruined my Green and Black, but made up for it by adding the orange and black dlc pallete. You'll usually find me wearing the Orange and Black, Brown and Tan (14), or Red, White, and Blue (15).

Wish they'd just removed my green and black, instead of making it some gross fail job.

[Skeletal Minion]

I use color 3 because it's close enough to the version of it I've been using since CS1, which is my favorite Hakumen iteration. Counters are actually solid, including j.D? 6D > charge 6C combos? Hotaru fatals and is usable in pressure? Great frame advantage offsets the mediocrity of his pressure game? Capable of doing big damage? Mugen doesn't suck and is practical?

He was solid in the areas he needed to be without being broken. They hit the nail on the head with this version of him, then decided, "Hey, even though he's not top tier, let's pepper him with a bunch of random, unjustified nerfs."

CT Hakumen was pretty fun, but was incomplete/had problems (bad frame data, couldn't deal with projectiles at all, had some of the worst MUs in the game).

CS2 Hakumen was just flat out poorly designed. As mAc said, you had to spend meter to get them away from midscreen since he was garbage there, but then you didn't have any stars once you got them to the corner. It was counterintuitive. Several moves had nonsensical properties (ground slide Tsubaki, lol).

CSE Hakumen was cool, but somewhat uninteresting. Basically land a starter > perform the one combo you ever really needed > corner combo for 6k+. I liked his tools, but many of them were needlessly good and he could have done without them (like j.B, which was WAY over buffed from CS2 when it was already a solid move).

Long story short, they had a good thing going with CS1 Hakumen, then they had to fuck it up for literally no goddamn reason.

[Sophisticat]

I have always used yellow/green Haku aka color #5 in CP. Best color.

And... yeah... I may have exaggerated when saying CSII Haku > CP. I don't know what I was thinking. ._.;

Anyway,

CT Haku has my nostalgia goggles. He was probably the most primitive version of Hakumen, possibly moreso than CSII for his lack of decent tools and corner knockdown. But given he was in CT, he was just plain fun to play as. That burst dmg and gdlk 6a were just too good. He will never again have an AA game as good it was here.

CS1 Haks was admittedly the one I got the most into. I knew this guy better than the back of my hand. The only reason he wasn't higher tier than he was, was because everyone else was more broken. Is he the penultimate Haku as I see him, though? Not quite, but I can't deny this is one of his better incarnations. He had corner carry in 2x j.C combos, and good damage anywhere, with tools for every situation. This was also pre-2a and j.C nerfs (1f more startup on the former, and 1f more recovery on the latter by CSII). Tsubaki and Hotaru were also arguably in their best versions right here. And Mugen just rocked.

CSII... yeah, now that I recall it, this guy reallllly killed the vibe I had going with CS1. Fuck you, CSII Haku. Still, if he had EX's meter gain... then he would more or less be EX Haku minus the one combo we know him for, lol. I can't really fault him for anything other than lack of meter gain, as he had all the necessary tools to win. Hell, Spark won EVO with this guy; give him some credit!

EX was just Terminator in video-game form. Highly efficient, good at everything, but not very creative at the end of the day. He was just there to own everyone else's options, carry them to the corner, then brutally murder them. Despite this, this is one of my favourite incarnations for one reason: he has all the tools he needs to do what he needs to do. There's literally nothing you could give him here that would make him better short of a command grab because he has it all. If he's not a tourney-winning character here, it's because others simply do what he does better. Even so, I wouldn't consider this his definitive version as I don't think a highly efficient killing machine is what Haku should be. He lacks burst damage and originality here. That he should be all-around strong is good, but this was a bit overboard and too focused even for him.

On balance and after giving it some thought, CP Haku isn't that bad. He does overly rely on getting burst damage as his selling point because you're otherwise doing piddly combos for 2-3k. His options got nerfed overall, so he's less versatile and more reliant on that one big CH. Not exactly what I have in mind for Haku, but overall still has the spirit of the character so he's ok to play as.

So what's his best incarnation? I hesitate to say. He offers something unique in each version. I think a combination of each version's best traits would provide a great character. Give us CT's and CP's burst damage without EX's extreme focus on efficiency, and we have a start. CSII at least had some creativity going on in combos, and that was really cool. Bring in CS1's options and most of EX's versatility and we're good on that front too.

I don't think we've seen his definite version yet, but I know CP ain't it. Too much focus on burst damage and not enough on versatility make him too unidimensional (and dare I say similar to CT Haku?). He's a strong character, but he's not, deep down, what we're looking for when we pick this guy.

Edited November 29, 2013 by Sophisticat

[dioxideUniversa]

CS2 Hakumen was just flat out poorly designed. As mAc said, you had to spend meter to get them away from midscreen since he was garbage there, but then you didn't have any stars once you got them to the corner. It was counterintuitive. Several moves had nonsensical properties (ground slide Tsubaki, lol).

i don't exactly understand the comparison here with tsubaki other than sliding seemed aesthetically silly?

from CS1 -> CS2, it gained ground slide and was not as comboable without the conversely very easy to combo off of knockdown. there isn't really a change here in CP, since tsubaki gets quickteched. you can combo off it with hotaru for another two stars, but in CS2 and E you could combo off slide tsubaki with no extra meter off of a hop (and possibly also TK if your execution was good enough but I do not recall at this point,) not to mention the fact that you could combo off it in the corner, which again you can't do in CP without two extra stars.

obviously one caveat though is CS2 had horrible meter gen so you probably had less opportunities to use it, opposed to CP where you probably have enough meter for hotaru followup anyway. this may or may not moot that point

Still, he had solid normals and hit like a truck in the corner, and 6D was lol since it did no damage but was still 1f.

6D did damage in CS2 and I am pretty sure CS2 is the first version where it did this

[BladeOfJustice7]

snip

Wonderful well thought out write up, and it sums up my sentiments with regards to this character and each version. Though I never really got to develop my CS1 Hakumen because back then I was just so focused on learning how to play on stick, that I could only perform the most rudimentary of CS1 combos, 35% of the time. So he's about as hazy as #R Ky for me, which means I couldn't if or why he was good or bad, but I could tell if someone was using CS1 Hakumen.

[Skeletal Minion]

i don't exactly understand the comparison here with tsubaki other than sliding seemed aesthetically silly?

Yeah, that's what I was going for. It's obviously a minor personal gripe, but I always thought it looked stupid and unfitting. Ideally I would prefer that they made it knockdown for only enough frames to link maybe Renka or 2B on normal hit, but for a long enough time to link 5C on CH. On CH you'd get follow up guaranteed; it would still be possible on normal hit, but you would have to spend meter or settle for 2B-prorated damage.

Regarding the Haku CP comparisons to CT, I agree in that he feels more similar than his other versions. If that's what they were aiming for with CP, I would have been a lot more forgiving of his general mediocrity if they had given him his old 6A back. Maybe not exactly, but something closer to CT 6A in terms of quicker startup/head invul would be nice. I don't even think it would be unfair to ask since they took away 6D and made 6A laughably negative on block; giving him a more viable AA would at least resemble a fair trade off at that point. If that's not reasonable, shit, remove 6A's head invul and give its frame advantage back, I'd rather have a legit pressure tool instead of an "anti-air" that's so slow they can often land and ground block.

Or if they were really going for CT Hakumen, just make counters not shit again. I will never understand why people are so afraid of them when they have never even been as good as a DP.

[dioxideUniversa]

another thing about CP tsubaki is people are so ODscared they're liable to burst it immediately when they see a hotaru followup, which pretty much voids being able to do a normal combo out of it

[Kriegdrache]

ALSO: did everybody start picking colors yet? Mine was easy as usual. Or do you have a favorite color from the other games?

F/Z Berserker day 1.

I also liked CS2 Haku btw. He wasn't amazing, but he was still p.fun. I'm kind of like Koopa_klawz, I was buns with CS1 Haku, but by the time CS2 rolled around, I had gotten used to him and was doing decent stuff, despite having mained the fucker since CT

I don't hate CP Hakumen at all, I think he's pretty solid. They just made Azrael everything I wanted in a fighting game character (mainly his hits feel like they're made of exploding buses) and I haven't really focused on Haku enough to git gud with him.

Edited November 29, 2013 by Kriegdrache

[g1Gilgamesh]

Colors 9 and 13 all the way for me. As for Haku himself, I guess I'm just flexible because I've never had many bug issues with any of his versions. It does tick me off how his counters are getting nurfed, considering aside from his personality that's the main reason I picked him all the way in CT.

As for repetitive combos, I do all the damage from random hits anyway so I get to combo so rarely I guess that keeps even repetitive combos fresh haha. I guess I'm just used to playing with whatever crappy hand I'm dealt with, for better or worse.

[BladeOfJustice7]

They just made Azrael everything I wanted in a fighting game character (mainly his hits feel like they're made of exploding buses) and I haven't really focused on Haku enough to git gud with him.

Lol I hear that, if Terumi didn't have that stomp special and stomp super of his, and didn't corpse stomp when he won, I'd probably play him instead. Gonna take some time and get back into the game, I'm still emotionally invested in this character to just drop him. His justice is too high for me to ignore him lol.

Why did everyone decide to play him? What drew you to Hakumen, to be more precise with my question.

[IndigoNovember]

I'm a more defensive player, so I enjoyed using Zanshin (his counters) during opponent's blockstrings to put an end to them.

[BlackYakuzu94]

Lol I hear that, if Terumi didn't have that stomp special and stomp super of his, and didn't corpse stomp when he won, I'd probably play him instead. Gonna take some time and get back into the game, I'm still emotionally invested in this character to just drop him. His justice is too high for me to ignore him lol.

Why did everyone decide to play him? What drew you to Hakumen, to be more precise with my question.

He felt like a badass, instead of mashing like an idiot to win, you have to use patience and understanding.

Motherfucking bushido.

[edollarports]

So I could airthrow OD 8k people to remind them how fucking great this game is

I also don't really play this game

Edit: I don't even try to go for anything besides sweep knockdown and OD combos hurrrr

[BlackYakuzu94]

So apparently Mugen is comboable:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5jryBWmTPI#t=310

I don't even.

[Schneider-X]

So apparently Mugen is comboable:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5jryBWmTPI#t=310

I don't even.

What do you mean? He did not combo into mugen, he went into Mugen and did a 2D enma after recovery.

[BladeOfJustice7]

^Just wow lol. I'll have to test that out but I mean Mugen doesn't have startup invincibility anymore so I guess they had to give it something I guess.

[psycofang2]

i like cp hakumen the most if we go by his original CT intent. extreme damage for no apparent reason anywhere on screen.

now my utmost favorite was cs2 for no real explainable reason, it just clicked. i like ct hakumen because i enjoyed slow high damage strike characters.

he fit the bill before and now again. hotaru and drive nerfs make defense a bit harder minus ib>2D/5/2A as ive been doing recently.

also ch 6b is amazing now. 4.9k in the corner for 3 stars.

[Kriegdrache]

Lol I hear that, if Terumi didn't have that stomp special and stomp super of his, and didn't corpse stomp when he won, I'd probably play him instead. Gonna take some time and get back into the game, I'm still emotionally invested in this character to just drop him. His justice is too high for me to ignore him lol.

Why did everyone decide to play him? What drew you to Hakumen, to be more precise with my question.

Yeah, I wasn't originally going to even touch Azrael, but I got him in random select in some day 1 casuals with a friend and he was incredibly fun, and I'm a fan of links, so he's been pretty fun to learn. I just need to do TCL consistently on pad.

I picked Hakumen in CT because I was originally going to learn Bang, but I couldn't get used to him unfortunately. Fighting Hakumen in arcade mode and hearing his speech made me go "wow this character is pretty cool" so I looked up those beginner combo tutorials that came on the Special Edition DVD and just went from there. Looking back, I have nothing but fond memories of CT Hakumen, sure he was kind of gimped, but goddamn being a low-tier hero is fun. It was especially rewarding when you opened up the opponents you had bad matchups with and you just DESTROYED them.

"I shall deny....YOUR VERY EXISTENCE!"

[Isuna]

Why did everyone decide to play him? What drew you to Hakumen, to be more precise with my question.

I had played two fighting games prior to BlazBlue. One of them was DoA2, where I would usually spam counter holds, so I picked up Hakumen to D-spam my equally nooby friends. Then half a year later, I realised Hakumen was the coolest fighting game character ever made. :3

did everybody start picking colors yet? Mine was easy as usual. Or do you have a favorite color from the other games?

During CS2 and the beginning of Extend I played Baiken, as it otherwise wouldn't be HAKUmen I was playing (hurr-durr).

At the end of extend I did play that White/Green/Brown instead, mostly because his sword were tree-coloured. Felt extra badass winning using only a wooden sword.

Can't believe they didn't keep it but kept that bad almost-the-same Greenish-White/Green/Black.

So if I ever play Hakumen in CP I'll either be playing Baikenmen or Sekimen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5jryBWmTPI#t=310

I just love the fact that the commentator doesn't know what to say, lol.

[BladeOfJustice7]

It was especially rewarding when you opened up the opponents you had bad matchups with and you just DESTROYED them.

"I shall deny....YOUR VERY EXISTENCE!"

Everytime I hear him talk, I feel like my chest hair is growing...

[Kriegdrache]

We need more Berserkermen up in here

ARRRRRRRRTHUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURRRRRRRR

[entnervt]

I play Hakumen since CT, even if I'm not that good, but CP Hakumen is imo the funniest version to play. I can't explain it but I really like him. Maybe it's because the entire game feels way smoother now. And I love that orange color (the last from the regular dlc). He looks really aggressive in orange (I ignore the color of the sword).

Edited November 30, 2013 by entnervt

[dioxideUniversa]

funniest

part of me hates to point this out but at the same time cannot resist wishing for a photoshopped hakumen with comedically large & garish shoes

"I shall deny....YOUR VERY EXISTENCE!"

i have always found that line less-than-sensical and pretty obnoxious, but ymmv

you people and your non sexy-jp-hakus

Edited November 30, 2013 by dioxideUniversa