[CS1] Noel Beginner Questions: You Gotta Start Somewhere

[LunaKage]

Whats the d stand for?

I use that to indicate the move takes place after the double jump.

j-jump, dj-double jump.

[ThunderboltZ28]

Ah. I figured that's what it meant. Just making sure.

Looks like I need to practice those super jumps.

[Chrome Hana]

So I've heard that Noel's 6C has something called same-move proration, or something similar to it, but I have no idea what it means. I used to think it was something positive/beneficial, but now I don't think it is. Could someone please clarify this for me? Also, Noel's B and C silencer's have positive proration, correct?

What would be some ways for Noel to punish rolls/techs? I try to 2B some opponents that like to delay waking up, but it obviously doesn't work when they roll, and I never learn to mix it up.

Also, do you have any tips on what Noel can do on wakeup? After I send the opponent flying away with Bloom Trigger, I'm usually at a loss of what to do and might go on the defensive and use Optic Barrel, but it usually doesn't pan out too well for me.

[HexaNoid]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think same move proration is where doing the same move over in a combo makes that moves damage diminish after each successive hit. For instance, 6C might do 100 damage on the first hit and only 50 on the next.

Positive proration is the opposite and is why haida looping nets so much damage. (I'm pretty sure Noel's B silencer has positive proration, but I think her C silencer has same move.)

As far as tips go on wakeup go, 6B works I think? Haven't got much experience with CS Noel.

[ThunderboltZ28]

Yeah 6B on wakeup after Bloom Trigger. I think there is something else but I don't know what.

[FunkyP]

6C does not have same move proration, also B haida does not positively prorate, however the proration is very little. C haida does, but only once in a combo.

Optic barrel and d.6D have same move proration.

As for wakeups, since Noel doesnt really have any wakeup option selects you're gonna have to wait and chase their tech or 5a pressure if they cant reversal you. 5a is usually a safe bet, but thats if they cant reversal you.

Edited November 11, 2010 by FunkyP

[Chrome Hana]

Wouldn't 6B be incredibly risky? I suppose that's standard for everything in Noel's repertoire. I feel like I would eat an Inferno Divider, Jayoku, or 360/720 if I try to use that. Say if the opponent blocks 6B, what would be the best option to escape except for rapid cancel?

[LunaKage]

Every one of Noel's drives have a same move penalty of 65%, meaning you shouldn't use one more than once in a combo, if you do, not only will the combo do less damage, but it may not even let you finish it, due to CS's combo system, the more a combo prorates the more likely it is to fail.

Note however, that the drive starters and drive follow ups are counted as two different moves. For example, 5D is different from d.5D, so technically 5D > d.6A > d.6C > d.5D > 623D is a combo that would not suffer from any same move penalties(though that particular combo isn't a good one :P).

[FunkyP]

Every one of Noel's drives have a same move penalty of 65%, meaning you shouldn't use one more than once in a combo, if you do, not only will the combo do less damage, but it may not even let you finish it, due to CS's combo system, the more a combo prorates the more likely it is to fail.

Don't take this as the absolute word though. Most of her drive bnb's require you to use same drive moves multiple times.

[LunaKage]

Don't take this as the absolute word though. Most of her drive bnb's require you to use same drive moves multiple times.

As far as her BnBs go, the only drive move I've had to use more than once in a combo is Bloom Trigger, and even then, I only use it twice. So which combo are you referring to?

[FunkyP]

most of her grounded midscreen drives have two d.6ds, d5cs, or d.6bs, midscreen combos into fenrir use two j.ds. Bloomer trigger used twice in corner combos etc...

Most of her established drive bnb's have multiple drive moves in one combo.

[LunaKage]

most of her grounded midscreen drives have two d.6ds, d5cs, or d.6bs, midscreen combos into fenrir use two j.ds. Bloomer trigger used twice in corner combos etc...

Most of her established drive bnb's have multiple drive moves in one combo.

There is no reason you should ever use two d.6Bs, d.5Cs or d.6Ds midscreen. It prorates your combo horribly, two j.Ds for Fenrir is good sometimes, but not the best option, and two bloom triggers have already been established for corner combos. If you are using more than one d.6D, d.6B or d.5C in your combos, you are not doing optimum damage.

[bmore303]

Those sound like CT maneuvers that repeat =\ . Granted repeating can lead to resets shown by dragontamer in another thread.

[dragontamer]

most of her grounded midscreen drives have two d.6ds, d5cs, or d.6bs, midscreen combos into fenrir use two j.ds. Bloomer trigger used twice in corner combos etc...

Most of her established drive bnb's have multiple drive moves in one combo.

As the others have said: no reason to use two d.6Ds, d.5C or d.6Bs ever (unless you are ending with Fenrir, which ignores same move proration because of minimum damage) It should be noted that 5D and d.5D are different attacks, and thus are not "same move prorated". Aside from Fenrir (minimum damage ignores proration) and Chain Revolver Oki (purposefully sacrifice damage for a setup...), I can't think of any time when I'd use a drive twice in a single combo.

[FunkyP]

I know about that whole combo thread and honestly never have seen 80% of those listed combos in actual tournament or tournament video. If I'm playing competitively(in which i shouldn't be playing noel in the first place, but thats another story) I'm not going for experimental training mode combos that have a high potential risk of failure. For what little damage opportunity Noel gets I'm gonna stick to the tried and tested bnb's that have been used in competition most often. I understand those offer slightly more damage, but am not gonna risk dropping 1/2k and potentially getting lit up the risk is not worth the effort. I(and I imagine most new players) am going to stick to her established bnb's in tournaments.

But honestly Noel is not a competitive character, so there was actually no point of mentioning tournament play in this thread.

[2 GB Combo]

Well since Noel is a bad character, and doesn't get too many chances to do damage in a competitive environment, maximizing the damage, even if it's just a little, helps tremendously. Low tiers have to work extra hard to win, that's why they are low tier, if someone wants to succeed with a low tier character, they have to go the extra mile and learn the really difficult combos, even if it's just for a few extra points of damage.

Although if you are competing in a tournament, just stick to what you know, you should only try the hard combos if you have enough faith in your execution.

[Halcyone3]

actually there are a couple combos that use d.6B twice, but since they are using fenrir right after its totally okay.

[dragontamer]

I know about that whole combo thread and honestly never have seen 80% of those listed combos in actual tournament or tournament video. If I'm playing competitively(in which i shouldn't be playing noel in the first place, but thats another story) I'm not going for experimental training mode combos that have a high potential risk of failure. For what little damage opportunity Noel gets I'm gonna stick to the tried and tested bnb's that have been used in competition most often. I understand those offer slightly more damage, but am not gonna risk dropping 1/2k and potentially getting lit up the risk is not worth the effort. I(and I imagine most new players) am going to stick to her established bnb's in tournaments.

But... if you use the same move twice in a combo, you're gonna get higher proration. Meaning the opponent gets less untechable time, meaning you have a higher chance to drop the combo.

Doing "proper" combos for maximum damage is both safe and easy. I'm not talking about 4x Haida loops where you screw up on the 66C (and thus get punished), we're talking about Chain Revolver combos, that have a billion buffer frames and require a single button push. If you have an easy combo that uses a specific drive twice, you've always got an even easier combo that does more damage. Even if you can't pull that 623D 66C link, I'm sure there's an easier combo for you.

The easiest thing I can tell you, is to know your options after 6C: you have j.D or if you time it right, 5D. Then you can go to d.6B or d.5C. From j.D, you have d.6D and d.5D as well. Every variation is easy as hell to pull off. With exception of d.6D -> d.5C, which requires a slight delay, I'm pretty sure you can just rely on the MASSIVE Chain-revolver buffer and push buttons.

Keep track of how you attacked your opponent earlier, and then don't use those attacks later.

Edited November 12, 2010 by dragontamer

[Mizzet]

It's kind of like how when CS just came out last November everyone was doing this,

3c 22bc 66c 5d 6b 5c j.d 6d 5c 6b 236d

when you can simply do,

3c 22bc 66c 5d 6b 5c j.d 6d 5c 6b 236d

Not only does it become simpler with two less moves, but it actually increases the damage. Is there an instance where the opposite is the case? I haven't played in a bit so I might be a little rusty.

Edited November 12, 2010 by Mizzet

[bmore303]

In tournament play it's not easy to get into maximum damage from Noel. Clean 3C's for 5k+ heatless is rare. I often settle for the 3.5-4.2k range. Everything else ends up being 2k-3k from weird counter hits.

[Raptor]

What are good setups for d.6D > d.6C combos? I know using 22B onward is one, but are there anymore? Would be great to add to my combo arsenal.

[Sahgren]

Wouldn't 6B be incredibly risky? I suppose that's standard for everything in Noel's repertoire. I feel like I would eat an Inferno Divider, Jayoku, or 360/720 if I try to use that. Say if the opponent blocks 6B, what would be the best option to escape except for rapid cancel?

One thing you can do is condition the opponent to think that you're going to 6B on wake-up every time. When you think they're going to use something like ID or Jayoku, you run up to them and start blocking. Ideally they'll get up, use their DP, and you get a nice free combo on them. If they get up and start blocking, then you're back to a neutral game, but with you in range to use 5A. I've never run into someone who tries to jab on wake-up if they have a DP, so someone else will have to fill you in on that.

When you do throw out 6B and they block it, you do have the option to go right into 5D. There's enough of an opening for them to jab you out of it, so it's still a typical Noel risk/reward move.

/Edited for non-fail engrish

Edited November 12, 2010 by Sahgren

[dragontamer]

Wouldn't 6B be incredibly risky? I suppose that's standard for everything in Noel's repertoire. I feel like I would eat an Inferno Divider, Jayoku, or 360/720 if I try to use that. Say if the opponent blocks 6B, what would be the best option to escape except for rapid cancel?

6B is only -4 frames, which means it needs to be instant-blocked if your opponent is going to punish you. 360A is too slow to punish IBed 6B, so you can just jump or backdash.

If your opponent doesn't IB, then you can just hold block after a blocked 6B.

[OrionXElite]

A blocked 6B against Tager is a really bad spot for Noel to be in. For one, if he IBs 6B and you do nothing, thats a free 360B! If he blocks it normally and you follow up with 3C, he can 720 you out of it. IB'd 6B>3C is a free 360B as well. If you go 6B into her drives, he can 360A you out of ALL of them easily. Even 4D but thats only at point blank so you got one thing on him. But yeah, don't throw out 6B against Tager unless you're sure it'll hit him cause if he blocks it, you're screwed. Not to mention he can Sledge through all of your follow ups except 6D on Normal block including 3C with its 1 frame gap. So against Tager this is seriously the worst guessing game you'll ever play. He has answers to everything but each of them has one right answer to get out of it.

[dragontamer]

A blocked 6B against Tager is a really bad spot for Noel to be in. For one, if he IBs 6B and you do nothing, thats a free 360B! If he blocks it normally and you follow up with 3C, he can 720 you out of it. IB'd 6B>3C is a free 360B as well. If you go 6B into her drives, he can 360A you out of ALL of them easily. Even 4D but thats only at point blank so you got one thing on him. But yeah, don't throw out 6B against Tager unless you're sure it'll hit him cause if he blocks it, you're screwed. Not to mention he can Sledge through all of your follow ups except 6D on Normal block including 3C with its 1 frame gap. So against Tager this is seriously the worst guessing game you'll ever play. He has answers to everything but each of them has one right answer to get out of it.

Its just a bad matchup, especially if your opponent can IB 720C you.

Lets say you do 2b: oops, -2 frame means IB + 720C means he can punish you if you don't gatling. Obviously, IB -> 720C means frametraps don't work either (720C punishes 6A, 5C or 2C after instant-block). Its the same exact deal.

Any form of pressure vs Tager is a deathtrap. But its necessary, because eventually you need to do something to hit your opponent. You're not going to win zoning Tager (lol disjointed hitboxes on Tager), and you're not going to win sitting on the other side of the screen (erm... optic barrel for 650 damage?). It just means you'll need to be smart about your pressure. The best thing is to change up your timing. Weaker Tagers are looking for a good time to buffer that 720C, and stronger players are waiting for that "obvious hit" that they can pull their IB -> 720C. Don't end your blockstrings the same way.

------------

Anyway, 2D is your "anti-720 mash" defense. A clean 2D on your opponent's 360A or 720C should net you 4k+ damage heatless, and 5k+ damage if you end with Fenrir. This evens the odds on the wtf 720C game, but 2D is the most punishable drive Noel has, so you can't rely on it. Plus, sledge beats 2D.

If you can jump cancel (5A, 2A, or 5B), then jump cancel forward on 360 / 720C heavy opponents. Jump Cancel 360 whiff / 720C whiff -> j.4D for easy 4k ~ 5k damage heatless. Or j.C CH -> 6A for even easier 3k+ damage. Watch out for Atomic Collider of course >_<

Anyway, you have to play risky, because you will lose the zone and poke game.

Edited November 12, 2010 by dragontamer