[CS2/EX] Hakumen Info and Discussion

[WallJumpMan]

wait how is 6a better?

[ryokoalways]

For mix-up, 2B is faster and 3C has much better proration (both also have much better advantage frames, with 2B staying at +2 and 3C going from -9 to -4, making both moves much much safer), so renka is no longer the main option as a starter as a low. This is important because you really do not want to use meter unless you know you can get some type of return. Change to tsubaki allows for fuzzy guard options, which is a major addition. Overhead jB on 2 more characters is also very good. Mid-screen low is arguably better for renka>gurren because of IAD jA>jB, which results in greater relative dmg than before. Hakumen also basically traded the tsubaki enma midscreen high option for the renka>kishuu>2C>hotaru low option. The former is slightly better, but I think it's safe to say that the change to tsubaki isn't really an overall nerf, but just a change of options.

As for 6A being better, I should include 5A for the same reason in that 5A>6A and 5A>j2A links add a variety of options. 5A Anti-jump is actually worth something now. In the combo thread, using 6A instead of 2B in the reverse combo I posted makes a major difference in the combo due to the 3% difference in P2. 5A>6A>5A string has the advantage of taking a long time to execute, making meter gain better as a result. Basically, Hakumen's air combo ability got better because he actually gets something off pokes instead of jA>jB>j2A.

Again, Hakumen's real nerfs were

-IB system (Defensively, self-explanatory, but offensively, Hakumen basically became the only char without air-tight strings, so it's not really a nerf, but just him getting shafted)

-Poke dmg (the effects aren't that large if you can confirm off 1 hit. The P2 decrease is the killer. Also, 2A going from 6 to 7F, which is a massive nerf)

-meter gain (the biggest problem imo. It's the a cause for all the problems I stated in the previous post. If he had CS1 meter gain, he is easily A tier)

However, he got a better corner game (a much better one imo), if you can get there with some magatamas.

Edited May 23, 2011 by ryokoalways

[Sophisticat]

Good shit, Ryoko.

I find the thing that's hurting me most right now is the 2a nerf. It's harder to poke now. I'm also feeling the meter gain hit and loss of midscreen 1s pickup combo. On the other hand, yeah, get them to the corner and hit them like a truck. It doesn't make up for his nerfs, but it's there.

Biggest difference to me is that it hurts rushdown playstyle and encourages turtling when low on mag, which I hate. Where you needed only 1s before to corner push you now need either the right starter (3c CH) or 2-3s. Plus, IAD j.a -> j.b piece remains high-execution and easy to whiff on certain characters.

[Arcknight]

Okay guys, I have an interesting anecdote and was curious if it has happened to anyone else. I was playing a fellow NVG player who was playing Noel of course and I Hakumen. I was cornered and in a gap in the pressure I grabbed Noel for a back-throw into the corner. Only it didn't work out that way. In fact, Hakumen slammed Noel into the corner so hard she bounced back out in front of Haku leaving him cornered still. Has anyone else encountered this? Are even the game mechanics trolling Haku? It was sad since that reversal would have possibly won me the round.

Edit: I even have the replay in case anyone wanted to witness the tragedy.

[BladeOfJustice7]

When you do a back throw while in the corner the opponent will fall back in front of you due to you being too close to the wall and the opponent wall bouncing. You need to either do 5a or 5b after after the back throw to begin the corner dustloop combo after the throw. I'm sure ryoko or spark will give you a better clarification on that. But that's basically it, I hope that helps.

[Arcknight]

When you do a back throw while in the corner the opponent will fall back in front of you due to you being too close to the wall and the opponent wall bouncing. You need to either do 5a or 5b after after the back throw to begin the corner dustloop combo after the throw. I'm sure ryoko or spark will give you a better clarification on that. But that's basically it, I hope that helps.

I will keep that in mind. I didn't expect that to happen so I didn't even bother. Live and learn I guess. Thanks.

[Spark]

If you're too close to the wall after back throwing, and try to combo with 2C you will duck under them after they wall bounce. So they bounce out of the corner.

[Arcknight]

If you're too close to the wall after back throwing, and try to combo with 2C you will duck under them after they wall bounce. So they bounce out of the corner.

Which is EXACTLY what happened. I'll not do that again if I can help it. If anyone else finds themselves in that situation, learn from my mistake.

[Sharakonta]

I know that with some of the bigger hitboxes (Haku, and Tager are the ones I know off the top of my head) Won't pass over you when you go to 2C from back throw in the corner.

[NoNouf]

I hope I'm in the good thread.

Ok, i just go my ps3 back, and immediately checked first hand the changes. And holy crap, i can't combo anymore.

Basically, I just want to get an idea of how hard it is now. Either :

It is just how different it is now, and I just need to practice some more (I could do CS1 bnbs)

OR

The level of execution required DID get higher (and I'm not sur ei want to go through the learning process again)

OR Both.

Sorry if this was asked already, I didn't felt like reading through 40 pages of text...

Thanks for any inputs

[Arcknight]

I don't think it is that big of a change personally (after having messed with it a few days) outside of a few links(TK Hotaru mid-screen, and mid-screen Tsubaki IAD links come to mind). His mid-screen BnB is still intact and it's even easier to do. Honestly you just have to practice more. Practice for a bit. Then practice applying it in a real match. Then practice it some more. I would imagine you've gone through this before so don't sweat it. I wish I had the time to follow my own advice!

On another note: After playing a few games with Haku with my friends on PSN I can definitely say a 1 frame change to 2A makes it seem absolutely GLACIAL! That change IS pretty bad imo. The change to j.C I can live with. Although that is noticably easier to get knocked out of too (might be placebo).

[zreb]

His new combos require more execution overall, with the harder combos taking significantly more precision than before. More than likely if you're feeling daunted about it, though, it's because you either did not establish that execution before hand or you are simply too rusty. Focus on what you want to try (I suggest the corner BnB if you're having as much trouble as it's sounding like) and keep at it until you feel comfy again. It's similar in principle to the old version, but the timing is sensitive enough that you can't just autopilot like the old renka corner loop but simple enough that you should be able to make progress on it without feeling like you're beating your head against the wall trying to figure out the timing at all.

Edited May 28, 2011 by zreb

[Sophisticat]

I agree he takes more execution now, though I don't believe its difficulty increased at all from CS1. It's just that; there's more of it.

Practice the new combos and inputs in training as much as possible. The more you do, the more Haku will become second nature again.

[NoNouf]

So it is a bit harder, but it's still within reasonable range. More precisely, there are more thing to learn, but not especially harder than the one before.

I guess I'll stick to Haku then.

Thanks for the answers =)

Edited May 29, 2011 by NoNouf

[BladeOfJustice7]

You can;t just give up on your main because his execution increased anyways. Gotta stick to someone you have fun playing first and foremost.

The real difficulty I'm finding so far is getting the j2a>j2c>sj2a in the corner personally. But I still get it once in a while in training mode, can't give up due to a little bit of difficulty.

[g1Gilgamesh]

I'd like to ask fellow stick users a question: How do you exactly input the IAD? (I have a square gate) 'Cause I know for a fact that the way i try to do it is somehow gimped because my airdashes come either too slow, or i just end up doing a small jump before the actual dash comes out. Makes the change to tsubaki & hotaru really annoying when due to that i can only do tsubaki stuff in the corner and the hotaru stuff aside from really high hit goes out the window too.

[zreb]

956 / 754. You have to make sure it's resetting to 5 before you hit the 4 or 6. If it's coming out too slow, then you simply haven't gotten used to it yet. If you're getting a normal jump, then it's not resetting to 5.

[g1Gilgamesh]

Now that you pointed it out I think I've been always sort of trying to go straight from 9 to 6 or 7 to 4. I'll have to test it, thanks.

[BladeOfJustice7]

956 / 754. You have to make sure it's resetting to 5 before you hit the 4 or 6. If it's coming out too slow, then you simply haven't gotten used to it yet. If you're getting a normal jump, then it's not resetting to 5.

I've going from 8 to 66/44, that's interesting. I'll have to give that a try, thanks zreb.

Anyone have any advice with the corner dustloop motions of sj2a>jrc>sj2a?

[CrazyI-nomitsu]

Hey I play Tager. And I feel since I'm use to his speed. I can sue Haku. Anything important I should know about him?

[BladeOfJustice7]

Know the spacing of your attacks very well, depending on the distance that you use certain attacks you could be punished when blocked. Be patient and rush down and air dash like crazy, learn to punish bad moves especially when in the corner make them bleed for their mistakes. Only use drive in moments of reaction and not guessing, in other words don't abuse your counters, you'll become obvious and get punished for using them.

[CrazyI-nomitsu]

I see. I need to patient with his pokes. 4C can make you want to spam it. BTW, it's a good thing not to focus on your meter when your playing Haku right. I just figure out how his meter last night.

Edited May 30, 2011 by CrazyI-nomitsu

[zreb]

Opposite. Meter management makes a huge difference in poor play vs. good play. Ideally, you want to save as much meter as possible for the corner and use as little as possible midscreen while getting good corner carry. How much meter you have determines what your options are, which you should be constantly aware of. A good opponent will watch your meter, too. If you have less than 3 stars in the corner, then the only possible mixup you're going to do that will return real damage for the most part are lows or throws.

Midscreen is basically meter-efficiency poverty zone, so you will have to make calls on how much you want to spend on a regular basis. You don't want to waste it in the corner either, obviously, but the risk vs. reward in the corner is much better than midscreen. Any situations where you can get meterless damage (parries, AA 5a/2c, throws in the corner are some examples) are a big bonus.

Though obviously, yes, you don't want to be stingy with your meter when you've created an opening that's worth taking.

Edited May 30, 2011 by zreb

[Arcknight]

I have a quick question I wanted to ask and see what you all think. If you do Haku's corner BnB up until the finisher (j.C> 5C > 3C) could you omit the ending and try a poor man's reset? The reason I ask is if you do j.C low enough then look like you mess up the timing you could land and 2C (or other air unblockable) after they tech (if they are trying to escape) into a brand new combo. Is this or something similar even viable? I don't have a ton of experience playing CS2 yet and I am just thinking of stuff to keep me from going crazy at work.

[zreb]

If they're trying to tech forward it would likely turn out poorly. It's also entirely possible to use AB to tech so you get barrier guard instead of accidental buttons. You might be able to get a little mileage out of it, but I'm skeptical that it would be overly effective.