Lord Knight Posted January 6, 2011 Author Posted January 6, 2011 What are your thoughts/impressions on the Makoto/Litchi matchup, and which characters give you/Litchi the most trouble? Also, what kind of players do you find yourself struggling the most against? Makoto vs Litchi is slight advantage for Litchi in CS1. Litchi's neutral is strong against Makoto - she has multiple ways of keeping Makoto out, and these all lead to big damage. Although Makoto has a lot of pokes that lead into big (BIG) damage, the only real safe approaches she has is sj in at an angle that Litchi can't cover (right above her, pretty much, and Litchi can just move out of the way) or positioning herself for dash 2A after blocked staff launch. If Makoto gets in on Litchi, this is her chance - she can compete with Litchi's damage output. As far as Litchi, Valk gives her the most trouble (neutral game is slightly in his favor, and his damage output is on her level - scary!). For me personally, I like any match against a good player. I don't like playing against Arakune (fuck him) more than anyone else. There are other matches, but they are tolerable next to Arakune :/. I really don't like playing against wild, random players, players with characters with a skewered risk/reward (see Hakumen), or players who ignore my space. Litchi is good at minimizing risks so it's ok.
mAc Chaos Posted January 6, 2011 Posted January 6, 2011 (edited) The only skewed risk reward he has is j.D. >_> And it's not like he has a solid anti-air anymore. Only jump ins or slow attacks should be getting caught by it. Oh and I guess Hotaru, but whatever. :P Edited January 6, 2011 by mAc Chaos
FlyingVe Posted January 6, 2011 Posted January 6, 2011 (edited) Now that you mentioned skewed risk/reward, I'm curious what your definition of that is? Is it stupid damage off a reversal? Silly Abare? Also, it seems to me that the skewed risk/reward is one of the bigger problems with CS1 on the whole, so many characters can just do silly things off of pretty much any reasonable hit or guess. How well do you think this has been addressed in CS2? (I think pretty well... mostly...*cough*Makoto*cough*) Also, Haku still controls space like a demon without a true AA. Edited January 6, 2011 by FlyingVe
Nini Heart Posted January 6, 2011 Posted January 6, 2011 Now that you mentioned skewed risk/reward, I'm curious what your definition of that is? Is it stupid damage off a reversal? Silly Abare? I think it's more of the lines of low risk/high reward for landing a move kind of stuff. If Haku does a J.D air to air for example, he puts himself at risk. What's the risk? Eating a J(x) counterhit at worst for measly damage on average(depends on the character though). If it lands however, he can get up to 5k. Litchi's JC(staff) air to air and Makoto's J.B air to air IMO are the most prominent examples of moves with an extremely skewed risk/reward.
Eshi Posted January 6, 2011 Posted January 6, 2011 Risk means the ease of punishment. This takes into account things like frame disadvantage, recovery frames after whiffing, how many options can beat it... generally how likely you will regret doing something. Reward refers to how much is gained when something works, which can mean damage, okizeme, favorable positioning, etc. Skewed risk/reward means that one of them is drastically higher than the other. A character like hakumen has great damage off of a lot of his moves and has a lot of safe options for it because of good range or frame advantage or something similar. A character like, say, noel has oppositely skewed risk/reward - her safer options for getting damage have really small reward against standing opponents, and her higher damaging options tend to be really easy to punish on prediction/reaction.
FlyingVe Posted January 6, 2011 Posted January 6, 2011 I am well aware of what risk reward means, I just sensed the LK was talking about it in a more specific way than its self-explanitory definition.
Rhiya Posted January 6, 2011 Posted January 6, 2011 Well, there's also the fact that a character like Hakumen screws with /your/ risk/reward. Things that would normally just get blocked (and, for this example, have minimal risk) instead have the chance of resulting in you eating serious damage (making most things you do much more dangerous).
Skye Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 LK, what are your thoughts on CS2 Carl? I've been paying close attention to him and it seems that he could very well be one of the best characters in CS2 after a while, he retains his resets and unblockable mixups, and to add to that his oki game received a magnanimous buff, his midscreen damage is legit and his corner stuff looks very scary. I heard his 6a AA is well buffed too. Once players find that center to deal with Nirvana's health changes, Carl could be a serious threat with good footsies. Much more notably so than CS1. Aside from vulnerability to zoners, which I see being his only setback, is there anything I'm not noticing?
mAc Chaos Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 lol wut? I thought everyone was saying Carl was dead meat now.
Osuna Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 LK, what are your thoughts on CS2 Carl? I've been paying close attention to him and it seems that he could very well be one of the best characters in CS2 after a while, he retains his resets and unblockable mixups, and to add to that his oki game received a magnanimous buff, his midscreen damage is legit and his corner stuff looks very scary. I heard his 6a AA is well buffed too. Once players find that center to deal with Nirvana's health changes, Carl could be a serious threat with good footsies. Much more notably so than CS1. Aside from vulnerability to zoners, which I see being his only setback, is there anything I'm not noticing?That's not what the word magnanimous means. To keep this from being a Totally off topic post, I'm also going to say that Carl was never bad, but his short comings consistently keep him from S tier and the mention of some of those short comings persisting means to me he won't be S but like always will be good. And to hedge my bets, since I'm so unqualified for Carl talk, I should probably ask LK a question. So...LK...whatcha think...about Oh! The new anti air properties on so many ground normals, as a litchi player can you see this dramatically changing any match ups?
Lord Knight Posted January 8, 2011 Author Posted January 8, 2011 Now that you mentioned skewed risk/reward, I'm curious what your definition of that is? Is it stupid damage off a reversal? Silly Abare? Also, it seems to me that the skewed risk/reward is one of the bigger problems with CS1 on the whole, so many characters can just do silly things off of pretty much any reasonable hit or guess. How well do you think this has been addressed in CS2? (I think pretty well... mostly...*cough*Makoto*cough*) Also, Haku still controls space like a demon without a true AA. Risk/reward for me is what is the damage/situation outcome from doing a certain action from a certain situation. When I think of the risk/reward of something being skewed, it's usually something a character has that gives them an unreasonable reward for whatever situation (Hakumen's jD, Tao's CA are a couple of examples). Hakumen's jD is really fucked this time, ahaha. game pace. LK, what are your thoughts on CS2 Carl? I've been paying close attention to him and it seems that he could very well be one of the best characters in CS2 after a while, he retains his resets and unblockable mixups, and to add to that his oki game received a magnanimous buff, his midscreen damage is legit and his corner stuff looks very scary. I heard his 6a AA is well buffed too. Once players find that center to deal with Nirvana's health changes, Carl could be a serious threat with good footsies. Much more notably so than CS1. Aside from vulnerability to zoners, which I see being his only setback, is there anything I'm not noticing? I like the jB > j2C loop a lot Basically I can't really say anything until they develop him more. Too many Carl players are crying though - that sort of character will always be good. Just buff your neutral and stop letting your sister eat all the hits - his AA got buffed! I also think a Carl that can force down is extremely dangerous. That's not what the word magnanimous means. To keep this from being a Totally off topic post, I'm also going to say that Carl was never bad, but his short comings consistently keep him from S tier and the mention of some of those short comings persisting means to me he won't be S but like always will be good. And to hedge my bets, since I'm so unqualified for Carl talk, I should probably ask LK a question. So...LK...whatcha think...about Oh! The new anti air properties on so many ground normals, as a litchi player can you see this dramatically changing any match ups? Love it. Can't wait to play a BB with that in the game, and it should've been in from the start. That's a good thing about GG/MB. As far as Litchi, it won't be too big of a deal because she already had a top class normal that dealt with that kind of situation (2C), but other characters were sorta lacking in this field. I think characters like Jin benefit from this a LOT since their mixup comes more from rushdown than oki (not saying that Jin doesn't have oki!).
Konner Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 Bang vs Lambda Mu vs Carl Mu vs Tager Bang vs Tager Carl vs Tager Arakune vs Tager Tager's pretty popular, huh :/ I can't make one! I haven't played the game yet, lol. Right now I do keep up with the bbs tier list thread, but that one has been pretty wild. I just was wondering about personal opinion on where the chars stand.
huey253 Posted January 8, 2011 Posted January 8, 2011 lol wut? I thought AMERICAN CARL PLAYERS were saying Carl was dead meat now. fixed for accuracy
Synthesis Posted January 11, 2011 Posted January 11, 2011 LK, I read the posts about risk/reward, and I understand this concept (MBAC Aoko), but would you say that using unsafe moves is a good idea? Example: Ragna's Dead Spike in a block string, Makoto's 3C in a blockstring, Wake-up throw, etc... These things are very obvious to see coming and can be beaten out by 5A, backdash or what have you. I don't believe they are worth the risk, and I tell the community here that when I'm critiquing play and trying to help but all I hear is "It worked" or "Kaqn does it." I don't think they understand the difference between play level and what may "work" might not be good. Your thoughts?
Rhiya Posted January 11, 2011 Posted January 11, 2011 LK, I read the posts about risk/reward, and I understand this concept (MBAC Aoko), but would you say that using unsafe moves is a good idea? Example: Ragna's Dead Spike in a block string, Makoto's 3C in a blockstring, Wake-up throw, etc... These things are very obvious to see coming and can be beaten out by 5A, backdash or what have you. I don't believe they are worth the risk, and I tell the community here that when I'm critiquing play and trying to help but all I hear is "It worked" or "Kaqn does it." I don't think they understand the difference between play level and what may "work" might not be good. Your thoughts? Thing is, wakeup throw and dead spike /are/ worth the risk. Can't speak for makoto's 3C, but, since I'm Tsubaki, wakeup throw->install in the corner is one of my most powerful options (4k min if I can install). You've got to do it right -- don't telegraph the throw so much, or telegraph false throws here and there so that they don't know if you're throwing or not. Dead Spike is +5 -- once it's out, it's fucking out, and if you're opponent is cornered and still has to block, gg, eat more blockstrings. It'd be especially powerful on an opponent who respects hard. Obviously, there are times /not/ to toss those out, but saying they shouldn't be used at all is kind of absurd/
FlyingVe Posted January 11, 2011 Posted January 11, 2011 all I hear is "It worked" or "Kaqn does it." I don't think they understand the difference between play level and what may "work" might not be good. Your thoughts? I know I'm not LK (sorry). I think alot of players watch things that top players do and just think, "if Kaqn does it, it must be good." I would be much better if people saw top players do something and asked why they did that. In my opinion, this is one of the things that separates good players from really good players. Good players can do the stuff, great players know why they're doing things.
Skye Posted January 11, 2011 Posted January 11, 2011 Don't quite think that's a separator of player skill, just if you're a mindless flowchart follower or if you can actually think on your feet, because it's not that hard to see the benefit in what the players do when they do something cool and unexpected. I suppose that forms a gap on mentality if anything.
FlyingVe Posted January 11, 2011 Posted January 11, 2011 Agreed, but don't underestimate the importance of mentality though.
Synthesis Posted January 11, 2011 Posted January 11, 2011 Dusk, let me rephrase. They wakeup throw like it's Guilty Gear, when they're getting up. I could understand a throw during oki as a mixup, but that isn't the case. And to clarify, I'm not falling for it, so that isn't the issue. And by dead spike, I don't mean properly placed ones. I don't know Ragna's inputs but they'll try bad things. I wish I could explain it better but it's quite difficult. Also, LK. I heard Garu called you free at EVO last year. Damn. I should play Melty more.
huey253 Posted January 11, 2011 Posted January 11, 2011 oh, TRM setups are super effective on people who played guilty gear before. lol
Synthesis Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 They don't play that, though. They're from street fighter. xD On topic: LK, have you seen the "Platinum Basics" Video? What do you think? How do you think she'll fare in the meta?
Lord Knight Posted January 12, 2011 Author Posted January 12, 2011 (edited) I just was wondering about personal opinion on where the chars stand. In regards to what? CS1 or CS2? In CS1, I personally feel the characters are split like this: S: Litchi = Tao S-: Bang = Valk A+: Arakune = Makoto, Carl A: Hakumen, Hazama, Jin, Ragna, Mu=Lambda B+: Noel, Rachel B: Tsubaki, Tager CS2, it's still a bit early for me to make a list for myself (again, haven't played :|) but most of the lists that I've seen have Makoto, Jin, Noel, Rachel, Arakune. Hazama is either top or top of mid. Bottom always has Valk. Makoto just reminds me of Litchi minus the fun oki :/. LK, I read the posts about risk/reward, and I understand this concept (MBAC Aoko), but would you say that using unsafe moves is a good idea? Example: Ragna's Dead Spike in a block string, Makoto's 3C in a blockstring, Wake-up throw, etc... These things are very obvious to see coming and can be beaten out by 5A, backdash or what have you. I don't believe they are worth the risk, and I tell the community here that when I'm critiquing play and trying to help but all I hear is "It worked" or "Kaqn does it." I don't think they understand the difference between play level and what may "work" might not be good. Your thoughts? You listed a couple of moves that are sort of safe It's hard to beat the "It works" argument. The only way you can stop that is by beating them for taking the bad risks. It's fine to do something risky if you actually think it'll work - depending on what the reward will be. As far as "X player does it", that's also all right. Eventually people will just mix it with their own gameplay, so it's all right. If it's something really gimmicky, just kill them for it until they stop trying it on you. You can try talking to the about that kind of stuff, but I've found just beating them with their bad habits works far better. The US MB players got Garu to call me free in English, lol. I was pretty :< Thing is, wakeup throw and dead spike /are/ worth the risk. Can't speak for makoto's 3C, but, since I'm Tsubaki, wakeup throw->install in the corner is one of my most powerful options (4k min if I can install). You've got to do it right -- don't telegraph the throw so much, or telegraph false throws here and there so that they don't know if you're throwing or not. Dead Spike is +5 -- once it's out, it's fucking out, and if you're opponent is cornered and still has to block, gg, eat more blockstrings. It'd be especially powerful on an opponent who respects hard. Obviously, there are times /not/ to toss those out, but saying they shouldn't be used at all is kind of absurd/ Once you play a good Jin, you stop considering wakeup throw REAL fast :/ I'm still surprised people try throw teching with B+C to be honest. Makoto's 3C, Ragna's Dead spike, those moves are all right for what they do. Once those moves are out, if you don't react quick enough you just have to respect them. Edited January 12, 2011 by Lord Knight
Rhiya Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 B+: Noel, Rachel B: Tsubaki, Tager I find it really interesting that you have Rachel over Tsubaki, since general opinion is the reverse. Care to explain? Once you play a good Jin, you stop considering wakeup throw REAL fast :/ Apparently, I need to play good Jin players = /
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