LK's GAMEPLAY RELATED QUESTIONS ONLY question thread

[Airk]

Vs ragna, get hit by I.D, burst instantly, I.D. invincibility frames absorbs the burst, you recover before he lands and can proceed to punishing him.

Vs jin, in corner, jin does 5C, he's gonna go into 623B for corner combo, you burst on the 5C, 623B invincibility absorbs the burst, you recover before him and get a free combo.

I did something like this by mistake the other day when I burst RIGHT BEFORE someone who had a buffered Jayoku Houtenjin. It came out anyway, went right through me, and punishment occured. Apparently, if you know right when someone's going to do a DD, you can burst before it and maybe screw them up, even though you can't burst AFTER the super flash.

Will this work on someone who doesn't suck? Probably not, so I should keep my mouth shut, but it was an epic moment at the time.

[Tong]

Kaqn didnt suck and got baited by Buppa.

Vs ragna I mean.

[Nini Heart]

Kaqn didnt suck and got baited by Buppa.

Vs ragna I mean.

He's not talking about baiting. He's talking about bursting a DD or move with invincibility and a lot of recovery to avoid it and get a free combo.

[Lord Knight]

LK, I wanted to ask you about bursting. I've recently changed my bursting game completely and it's changed the way I play.

I used to only green burst when I was gonna eat a big fat combo or when I was about to lose a round, but a lot of times, I got burst baited and still ended up dying, or burst and still lost the round, making my opponents have to worry about one less burst.

And I notice that a lot of people still do that, making for easy burst baits.

I noticed that a lot of high level players liked to bait my bursts. So I stopped bursting and noticed that many of them were expecting me to burst and dropping their combos/pressure allowing me to perform a comeback(kinda).

Another thing I've started doing is using gold burst as a poke / reversal. It's a bit risky but I can get 5K off a gold burst. I figured that instead of bursting out of combos, I could prevent those combos from happening by gold bursting and going into my own combo that would force them to burst.

As of now, I only green burst to regain momentum(aside of rage bursts:v:), I.E, someone in corner hits me(not gonna be a big combo), I burst to put them back in the corner + orb oki.

Also I've discovered some burst tactics and I was wondering if there were some more that you knew that you could share with me.

One of the burst tactics I recently discovered came from a rage burst.

Vs ragna, get hit by I.D, burst instantly, I.D. invincibility frames absorbs the burst, you recover before he lands and can proceed to punishing him.

Vs jin, in corner, jin hit confirms 5C, he's gonna go into 623B for corner combo, you burst on the 5C, 623B invincibility absorbs the burst, you recover before him and get a free combo.

Anyways, I wanted to know your views on bursting because I feel this is one important mechanic in the game which has not been talked about much or discussed as deeply as it should (or I haven't seen the discussions about it).

Nice!

I was wondering when someone would bring this up.

To be honest, a lot of people don't really know how to burst well - though it's hard for me to say explicitly HOW to burst, there are a couple of general applications. I feel like you actually covered most of the prime usage of bursts in your post:

A) Obviously, combo breaker

B) Regaining momentum

In addition it can be used for -

C) Breaking out of pressure

D) Situational escapes

And gold bursting can be used for

E) Reversals

F) Escaping certain setups

I find it really surprising when people don't burst sometimes - most commonly when they have a chance to win the match, but they simply choose to have the 2 bursts at the end of the round (of course, there are other examples).

As far as what your talking about, using burst to punish, there are very few that are useful. You can also burst Makoto dp if she uses it as an ender, but only on the ground (so, never). Much more useful is spots in characters combos, where you are guaranteed to escape, like bursting Jyayoku startup (assuming they go the general best route of 3c > Jyayoku). I could try to write a list, but it'd be pretty long, and it should be obvious where not to burst (for the most part).

[Moy_X7]

I used to only green burst when I was gonna eat a big fat combo or when I was about to lose a round, but a lot of times, I got burst baited and still ended up dying, or burst and still lost the round, making my opponents have to worry about one less burst.

And I notice that a lot of people still do that, making for easy burst baits.

I was actually going to bring this up, I see that a lot of people burst right when they're about to die and that's pretty much my cue to jump cancel or RC some shit. Come on people, this isn't CT

That and I see that a lot of people also save their Bursts until the final round as opposed to using them at key points of the match. I for one only save my Bursts either if a round has gone so horribly bad for me and I believe that there's no way to turn it around or if I want to go for the Asstroll. Other than that, I'll use it for some of the reasons that you guys mentioned.

[Lord Knight]

I hate to sound cheesy, but if you really think using a burst can change your momentum and help you win, you should do it.

People who hold their burst till the end will be real sad come CS2.

[Nini Heart]

By the way, I notice that Buppa has been doing a lot of those strategic bursts where you recover and punish the opponent that I was talking about. Think it's a viable burst tactic?

Here too, with a MUCH BETTER punish

Looks legit. Wonder against which other characters this can be used aside from Jin/Ragz.

Matter fact, every aspect of bursting I was talking about came up in that video(except gold bursts). There were a lot of burst bait fails which cost Buppa a few games. He expected Kaqn to burst on his 3Cs for example, but Kaqn knew that and did not burst, causing Buppa to lose momentum and the opportunity to make his opponent lose a burst.

BTW, what do you think about burst baiting? It seems like a risky thing to do(Not talking about burst safe combos like Tao's taunt loop or Makoto's drive). Seems very high risk/high reward to me.

Well unless you're noel and the best grounded burst bait punish you have is 5C>J.C>Thor

Edited January 25, 2011 by Nini Heart

[Lord Knight]

As far as I know, outside of the Makoto one I also listed, that's pretty much it. Litchi's you can't burst because hers is a projectile.

Baiting burst after 3C is a legit tactic if he has 50 meter, that leads into way too much damage, it's a good place to burst.

Early in CS, I used to burst bait a lot, but to be honest it's not worth it to me. In my case, Litchi's damage was so high, that I was missing out on a ton of implied damage when I held itsuu stance for too long.

It's better to try to see if you have burstsafe routes. For example, CS1 Hazama has jDrive CH > flying in > [1] (burst safe) > 5C > 3C > (1) > Jyayoku etc. It's much better to not give up the implied damage imo, especially if it's someone you've never played before. I've played Tagers who hit me with 2C FC and just try to bait my burst after when I have 90% health left - too much yomi, too much variance for me.

[tastylumpia]

Bursting strategy is something I surprisingly don't see get nearly as specific discussion as other gameplay elements, seeing the magnitude it can have in determining the outcome of a match.

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/content.php?9-bursting

I see a lot of smart offensive/defensive burst usage in GG play. Given the system mechanics differences, bursts are obviously used more sparingly and defensively in BB, but it's interesting to see how that changes given the new mechanics in CS2.

Burst baiting is a really interesting unknown topic to me too. I see good players do some interesting stuff in anticipation of/attempt to entice a burst, to not always successful ends. May not be as important for a high damage character like Litchi who ends combos in good position anyway, but knowing when an opponent will or will not burst is some kind of yomi mastery that seems to come from experience and a good understanding of the opponent and flow of the match as well as the specific character matchup. But then other times it just seems random and it looks like you pretty much just wasted your combo for no good reason.

Edited January 26, 2011 by tastylumpia

[Lord Knight]

The art of baiting reversals? when to respect it and when to disrespect it.

Also, what's the mindset of a good JP player when it comes to baiting reversals in your opinion?

I wouldn't say there's an "art" to it - it's more of an educated guess.

In order to bait a reversal, you'd have to see where's a logical time for them to be done. Although a common way is to look at someone's meter (obviously to see if they can RC their reversal), another good way is to check what gaps you have in your pressure, along with how much reward they get for using their reversal.

If you can see a pattern in how they use their reversals, take advantage of it as much as possible.

I can't speak for any other players other than myself - baiting reversals too much is definitely not a good thing. A mark of a good player is having the confidence to rushdown even when they have the reversal option stocked. You want to have an offense prepared that can deal with their reversal or continue to give you pressure if they choose not to use it. I think this doesn't just pertain to Japanese players, but good, knowledgeable players across the board.

[deadsnake]

Characters with good neutral games are those who not only do a lot of damage at random hits, but do a good job at controlling options when not in pressure. Characters aren't ordered in any specific way.

Top class: Tao, Litchi

Excellent: Bang, Carl, Arakune, Hazama, Valk, Mu, Lambda

Great: Hakumen, Ragna, Jin, Makoto, Rachel

Good: Noel, Tsubaki, Tager

Fucking lame: Carl Carl Carl Carl Carl

No character in this game is particularly bad in neutral, it's just that some characters are absolutely ridiculous.

could you elaborate on how to control options since litchi is mentioned in your top class of option controller =/

*learning fundaments...

[excelence]

well... Litchi can control a lot of space with her pokes & manten

[Lord Knight]

Again, it's just my opinion so it's whatever, this doesn't agree with the last jp community list or other people's personal lists, probably.

Originally I had this typed up in notepad but it looked really sloppy, so instead I just borrowed SpiritBro's format he used before.

Explanation of

In regards to what? CS1 or CS2?

In CS1, I personally feel the characters are split like this:

S: Litchi = Tao

S-: Bang = Valk

A+: Arakune = Makoto, Carl

A: Hakumen, Hazama, Jin, Ragna, Mu=Lambda

B+: Noel, Rachel

B: Tsubaki, Tager

S:

Litchi:

Average Damage - High. Unless you start a combo with multiple 5A's/2A's, she rarely does under 3000. Most of her hits lead into above 4000 damage.

Max Damage - Really high. Multiple moves have 100 p1 and lead into 5000+ damage. 5C FC leads into 5.5k or higher.

Pokes - Excellent. Some are a bit slow, or have a bit of recovery.

Escaping Pressure - Top class backstep (especially in the corner). 3F jump, so IB jump is strong. DP is weaker, so tradeoff is not as good unless you get a pointblank hit or counter hit with the first part of it.

Mixup - Excellent. 6A[m] is practically broken, 4D is a great overhead that's pretty much safe, 3C has 100 p1 so the damage is huge.

Pressure - Top class. Strong frame traps, lots of routes and varients, great at punishing throw techs/OS throw techs, and always gets high damage as reward.

Okizeme/Ukemi - Daisharin, Kokushi, meterless okizeme are all good, and she can beat almost all answers to each.

Against ground - Jump B is still godly. 5B is an excellent poke, 3C is pretty good, catches backdashes and leads into huge damage. The rare times that someone does beat her outright on the ground, she can still use 6D to try and trade in her favor.

Against Air - Litchi lacks a true anti air (ie, one with invul), but she has various tools to deal with airborne opponents (2A, 5A, ItsuuA, Tsubame). JC is a top class air to air move which leads to 5K on counter hit.

Defense - Average health, primers. Average counter assault. Tall standing box, tiny crouch hitbox, somewhat favorable hitbox.

Neutral - Top class. Litchi has an answer in neutral to practically everything.

Tao:

Average Damage - Top class. Easily is able to confrim hits into 3.5K or higher.

Max Damage - Top class. Taunt loops off 6C or FC 2C can easily head into the 8000 range with AB2 enders.

Pokes - Average. 6C is good in some matchups, but Tao doesn't spend much time grounded anyway.

Escaping Pressure - Great. IB > Backstep, Crawl, and she has the best Counter assault in the game. Lacks a good meterless option.

Mixup - Excellent. Tao can put you in a variety of situations that lead to good damage. Lots of left/right mixups with drive.

Pressure - Top class. Gets in, stays in. Strong traps, tricks with drives, good at using throw reject miss.

Okizeme/Ukemi - Okizeme is good, Ukemi is top class. Tao is able to end combos that can leave enemies in unfavorable positions and follow up with a huge variety of options. She has oki ender which leads to strong damage, but usually also comes at a cost of sacrificing significant damage.

Against Ground - Jump B is godly, Tao can maneuver away from stuff on reaction. Doesn't worry about ground to ground much.

Against Air - Top class. jD~B on counter hit is obscene, jC is excellent and jA is fast and beats a lot of moves. 2B helps reposition herself, 6A is a decent anti air.

Defense - Low primer, lowest health, best counter assault, unfavorable hitbox, has a crawl.

Neutral - Top class. Only characters that come close to her movement are Valk and Hazama. Litchi comes close, but just can't avoid things the same way she can.

S-

Bang:

Average Damage - High. Able to confirm a lot of hits into around 3K.

Max Damage - High. Daifunka instantly adds damage to any combo. Corner airthrow > Daifunka does way too much damage. J4C Loop after FRKZ is huge damage.

Pokes - 5B is the best poke in the game.

Escaping Pressure - Guard points are faster, but more characters have more pressure options so it's a bit riskier. Counter Assault is top class.

Mixup - Excellent. Pressure and frame traps are stronger this time. Damage is high off high/low throw, 6A is safe on block.

Pressure - Top class. Scary pressure, nails to reset. Bang can keep his turn going for a long time.

Okizeme/Ukemi - Can force knockdown at a price of small damage lost. Ukemi is all right, mostly command grab gimmicks.

Against Ground - No ghetto anti-airs will be his j4B. Nails help cover him a bit. jC good against a majority of the cast. 5B is the best poke, there are very few moves that will out right beat it.

Against Air - Lacks an anti air with invul, but 5A is big and is only 5F startup, 2D gets the job done, jA works. JB air to air is excellent.

Defense - Above average health and primers, top class counter assualt, somewhat favorable hitbox.

Neutral - Extremely strong in neutral, especially when he has nails. 5B is the best poke in the game, 5A is excellent when positioned properly. Can move really freely with 2 airdashes.

Valk:

Average Damage - It can be low, but more often than not it's comparable with Litchi damage.

Max Damage - Huge. 2C/6C starters do unfair damage.

Pokes - Excellent. 5B, 5C are both excellent and extremely hard to hit, 2C is ridiculous.

Escaping Pressure - Top class counter assault. Outside of that, thanks to his slow 2A and no meterless reversal, he doesn't have much. His backstep is great to get out.

Mixup - Top class. Also gets high damage off everything.

Pressure - Top class. Tons of safe strings.

Okizeme/Ukemi - Oki leads right back into his pressure. If he corners you, 6B catches rolls and confirms into combo. Positions himself well after jC knockdown.

Against Ground - jC, 5B and 5C are ridiculous.

Against Air - 2C would be broken if it recovered faster. 5A is all right anti air.

Defense - Old man life, low primers. Top class counter assault (would be the best, but loses to low profile moves and the start up is slow), average hitbox.

Neutral - Strong. Great ground pokes as human, excellent mobility as wolf. Struggles against zoners.

A+

Arakune

Average Damage - Somewhat low. It doesn't matter though, all that matters is how easily he gets curse.

Max Damage - Best in the game, and you see it the most in matches. Curse combos can reach 11k.

Pokes - Doesn't have much on the ground, but Arakune is aerial character.

Escaping Pressure - 3F jump like Litchi, fast dash.

Mixup - Pretty good without curse, top class with curse.

Pressure - Strong without curse. Top class with curse.

Okizeme/Ukemi - Doesn't really care about this stuff without curse, and he's probably too busy killing you if you are cursed. Post curse, ukemi is strong, he can setup 50-75 percent curse situation if you try to move.

Against Ground - jB is excellent, air teleports are way too fast and are a great way to bait anti airs.

Against Air - 5C is good, but slow to start. 2B was nerfed from CT.

Defense - Below average life, Average primers. Excellent counter assault (could've been the best, but loses in some crucial situations, and you need 100 meter for it to be really scary). Unfavorable hitbox.

Neutral - Excellent. High mobility, teleports give him a great pace. Once you're cursed, almost everyone is trapped. Struggles against zoners/people who control airspace well.

Makoto

Average Damage - Can be low, especially midscreen. However her confirms off most hits lead into high damage.

Max Damage - Ridiculously high. On par with Taokaka.

Pokes - Decent. 2A is huge and has 5f start up, 5B reaches far and advances, 6C has a big hitbox and advances.

Escaping Pressure - DP leads to good damage and knockdown, but is vulnerable to lows/low profile. Counter assault can be low profiled. 2A is 5F startup (!), backstep is average.

Mixup - Pressure mixup is extremely strong, staggers with 2A are strong. Late cancelled 5C is strong. High/low leads into huge damage.

Pressure - Can stay in your face in a while BUT LOSES TO BARRIER DEFENSE

Okizeme/Ukemi - Corner oki is good. She has a couple of ways to go into high/low mixup, and getting hit by that probably means the round.

Against Ground - jCC is excellent, J2C clashes with almost everything. 2A is fast and fat.

Against Air - 6A is a great anti air, but there's recovery on it. Parry is good. 2A works well as a situational anti air. JB counter hit leads to high damage even with a poor confirm.

Defense - Average health, average primers, below average counter assault (loses to low profiles), somewhat favorable hitbox.

Neutral - Typical close range character. Pretty much looks to get into dash 2A range. Good jump ins. Struggles with characters that control space well (not necessarily zoners).

Carl

Average Damage - Varies. His confirms can net around 4K damage.

Max Damage - High. 4D loop is over 5000 damage.

Pokes - 5C is excellent, it even beats Litchi's 5B[m]. This gets augmented by Nirvana helping him to control space.

Escaping Pressure - Decent. Counter assault is average, roll is risky. Gear super is good, but not on wakeup.

Mixup - On his own, not very good, with Nirvana, excellent. Various left/right setups, near unblockables, and combos often end in a way that lead into pressure again.

Pressure - On his own, not very good, with Nirvana, excellent. Flows well from mixup/combos.

Okizeme/Ukemi - Okizeme is practically nonexistent, but it's all right for him. Ukemi is decent with 8D and fork, especially in the corner. Most of the time he just resets you into pressure.

Against Ground - No stellar jump-ins. 5C is excellent. Nirvana makes enemy ground approaches difficult.

Against Air - 6A is a good anti air. JA is 5F startup, making it very good point blank. JB is great air to air.

Defense - Low health, primers, average counter assault, somewhat favorable hitbox.

Neutral - Strong neutral. Excellent at forcing turtling. Struggles against characters that can deal with him and Nirvana simultaneously.

A

Hakumen

Average Damage - High. Confirms into around 3.5k.

Max Damage - Very high. Tsubaki/FC Hotaru starters lead into huge damage.

Pokes - Excellent. Although 4C is overall an average move, it still covers huge range. 3C forces knockdown.

Escaping Pressure - Thanks to counters, some things are impossible on Hakumen. 2A/5A is extremely fast. Hotaru is an excellent reversal

Mixup - Good with stars. Hakumen is also good at using throw reject.

Pressure - Strong. Hotaru and Tsubaki are both safe on block. 6A is ridiculously safe on block. 2A/5A are both fast.

Okizeme/Ukemi - Corner knockdown is strong. He has a couple of setups that leave the opponent in the air in the corner which can lead into big damage.

Against Ground - Great, jB is n excellent jump in. He has good ground pokes. JC, j2C are a bit vulnerable.

Against Air - 5A is 5F startup, great hitbox. Counter/fear of counter keeps the opponent in check. JC is a top class air to air.

Defense - High health and primers. Good counter assault. Tall standing and crouching hitbox. Tall crouching hitbox leads to some moves hitting him crouching which would whiff on other characters, unfavorable hitbox.

Neutral - Great, controls the pace of a lot of matchups.

Hazama

Average Damage - Hovers from 2K-3K.

Max Damage - Off FC Houtenjin starter, as high as 8000. 5C starter, 6C starter are both great as well.

Pokes - Chain are great. Once they get close, the oppenent has to deal with an array of strong normals, including 2C, 3C and 5A.

Escaping Pressure - Decent. Fast CA, Houtenjin, 5F 5A.

Mixup - Decent. 214DA/214DC are both 19F start up making it hard to react to, but midscreen it's not very strong. Command throw keeps things fresh.

Pressure - Scary in the corner, not so much midscreen. His 5B being +2 is very helpful, but the range on his normals isn't too good, so it hurts midscreen

Okizeme/Ukemi - Ukemi is bad midscreen. In the corner, he has 2AA or OS Houtenjin, both which are good options. His oki is weak midscreen, but solid in the corner.

Against Ground - Excellent. Many movement options to avoid anti-airs, j2C reaches really low, and jB doesn't have a big vulnerable box.

Against Air - Excellent. 214DB, 5A, 2C, and chains are all excellent tools against people jumping in. JB is excellent air to air.

Defense - Average health, low primers. Good counter assault. Favorable hitbox.

Neutral - Excellent. His only weakness is that his best confirms off chains come from opponents who are grounded when they are hit. Struggles against characters that can neutralize the chain.

Jin

Average Damage - Good. Hovers around 2K-3.5K. Can always use meter to send them to the corner or add more damage.

Max Damage - Pretty good, gets around 6000.

Pokes - Great, a wide array of tools that cover a bunch of situations. The only "bad" thing you can say about it is that he doesn't have an easy go-to option all the time.

Escaping Pressure - Excellent. He has 4 DP's!!!!

Mixup - Excellent. Particualarly good at punishing throw whiffs and throw reject, but he has a bunch of dangerous tricks and resets that lead to 4K-4.5K damage.

Pressure - Excellent. Strong frametraps. When Jin gets going, he stays going for a while.

Okizeme/Ukemi - Good. Doesn't rely on Ukemi much, since his mixup comes from ending combos in places where you're simply standing in front of him while he continues his offense.

Against Ground - Great. Between 5B, 5C, jB, jC, j2, a wide range of projectiles (ice swords), he has the tools to get the job done.

Against Air - Great. 2A, 5B are good anti-airs, 6C is good against jump outs. Rising jA is legendary status, jC is an excellent air to air. His anti-airs are tough to use since they're situational.

Defense - Above average life, average primers, average CA. Good reversals, normal hitbox.

Neutral - He has all the tools, but his reward is only mediocre for the most part.

Ragna -

Average Damage - Ranges from really low (hitconfirm from far away) to over 3000.

Max Damage - BK combos can do around 6000 with FC 2C it can get above 7000.

Pokes - Although 5B has its flaws, it's practically legendary. Faster 5C is good.

Escaping Pressure - INFERNO DIVIDER.

Mixup - Somewhat linear, but has tricks and gatling routes that are pretty deceiving.

Pressure - Strong. 2C is +1, 6A is a level 3 move. If you can use all Ragna's tools, he's intimidating.

Okizeme/Ukemi - Because of the nature of Ragna's combos, Ukemi doesn't really matter unless you end with Hell's Fang midscreen. All his combos leave him in a favorable position in the corner. Madao is still excellent.

Against Ground - 5B and 5C are excellent, 5A is good in some matches. 5C specifically is best at punishing whiffs. JC does have a big vulnerable box, but spaced it is very strong. JB is an underrated move.

Against Air - 6A is good despite the nerfed invul. 5A is a good emergency anti air.

Defense - Below average life, average primers, average CA, normal hitbox.

Neutral - Plays a solid midrange. He can't kill projectiles though (dead spike does it, but it's so slow), so he struggles to get in on zoners.

Mu

Average Damage - Ranges from pretty low to all right. The weak hitconfirms send them fullscreen for the most part, so it's ok.

Max Damage - Fc 6C is 7.2K.

Pokes - 5C and 6C are good at covering the spaces they are designed for. Dash 2B/5A is a good midscreen tool.

Escaping Pressure - IB DP is excellent with her. Normally I'd say something like "it sucks that they can't combo off it", but she doesn't care.

Mixup - All right. Overhead doesn't do much damage without meter, but you knock them fullscreen so she's all right. Low goes into good damage. 2B helps with TRM tricks.

Pressure - 5B > 6A rebeat is good, 2B is strong. If she has support from steins, it's good.

Okizeme/Ukemi - Steins prevent rolls and quick getups, forcing you to block her mixup.

Against Ground - Dash 5A/2B is good since she has high dash speed. 5C is a good poke, 6C is good at the right range. JB is underrated jump in. J2C is good when used properly.

Against Air - JC is excellent. 6A does the job, 5A works as an emergency anti-air since it's big. Airthrow is excellent.

Defense - Below average life, average primer, average CA, favorable hitbox.

Neutral - Her high dash speed is nice, and she's able to cover the area in front of her quite well. If the opponent decides to turtle for whatever reason, she gets time to set up starcraft and do whatever she wants. Struggles against characters that can punish her for setting up steins.

Lambda

Average Damage - Ranges from outright bad (Random 5D hit on grounded opponent) to around average.

Max Damage - Gets high damage from 214D loop, crescent loop. Thanks to the high amount of hits, gets to around 5.5K+ range.

Pokes - Not too good at this. Thankfully she has swords so it doesn't matter too much.

Escaping Pressure - Gravity well is ok, but is limited thanks to the meter afterwards. Summoning Goryus only gives you 1-3F invul, but it's guranteed to come out after the super flash. Backdash gets you away, but has a ton of recovery, so it's risky.

Mixup - Good. Has tricky setups with crescent feints. 4B is unblockable (!!!!!). Good at abusing TRM with her 2B.

Pressure - Good. Has good rebeat and a lot of delay cancellable normals. She can easily exit to zone or go for mixup whenever she wants. Teleport is all right.

Okizeme/Ukemi - Pretty good. Midscreen she doesn't care if she knocks you away, because she can zone again. In the corner her combo enders leave her in a position to force you to block 214D, which leads into pressure again.

Against Ground - Not bad. In between swords and dash 5A/2B, combined with her high mobility, she's fine. Air swords lead into good pressure.

Against Air - Good. Airthrow is excellent, JC is good air to air. 6A is a decent AA, 5A is all right if you don't have much time. Her high mobility lets her reposition herself easily for swords.

Defense - Below average life, average primers, average CA. Favorable hitbox.

Neutral - Like Litchi, matchup knowledge is important. Ground swords are weaker this time, so being able to play a midrange game is crucial with her. Struggles with anyone who can easy clash/manuever around swords.

B+

Noel

Average Damage - Really low if the opponent is standing, pretty good if they are crouching.

Max Damage - FC 4D in the corner with 100 meter = 11k (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) , Throw leads to 5k+ in corner, corner 6B/3C leads to pretty high damage.

Pokes - 5B, 5C, 2C are all decent, but just not good enough for this version. 2C is special since it has CH carry, so it's easier to confirm.

Escaping Pressure - Although 2D and 5D have their weaknesses, they get the job done. Her CA is excellent, very few characters can punish it when used properly.

Mixup - Decent. She's lacking a strong low. 214A acts as a replacement for it, but it isn't that good. Drive "mixup" loses to upback. 2B is good for TRM. Crossup 2D loses to standing, j4D crossup usually only works once. Drive cancel setup is good when used well.

Pressure - Strong. Although 5A was nerfed, she has various throw whiff cancels that can assist with pressure, 2B is stronger, 5C advances a bit and 2C is +1.

Okizeme/Ukemi - Midscreen, rather weak. In the corner, she can use 6B or 4D to stop rolls, and 4D leads to high/low, so not bad.

Against ground - 5B, 5C, 2C all average. JB hitbox is weak for jumpin, jC is all right. JD is situationally ok.

Against air - 6A is ok. JA is good air to air. JB weaker hitbox hurts in this regard.

Defense - Average life, below average primer, favorable hitbox, above average counter assault.

Neutral - She has decent safe tools, but the damage return on it is low. Her risky tools lead to big damage, but they are all really punishable on whiff/block.

Rachel

Average Damage - Low.

Max Damage - I took 4000 damage a couple of times. . . she can touch 4.5K, but requires a lot of wind and meter. Definitely the lower end.

Pokes - Not good since she is still a child. Thankfully she has good zoning tools, so this doesn't matter as much.

Escaping Pressure - Has cat chair and CA. Cat chair is all right, but extremely punishable if baited.

Mixup - Still good, but damage off it is overall low. 4B takes a primer if blocked, j2BD is still good, 2B and 3C are still good.

Pressure - Still good. Scary when supplemented by pumpkin/George.

Okizeme/Ukemi - Could be great, but damage return on punishing rolls and such are low.

Against ground - Although her ground normals aren't good, lobelia's are great, George does well if they can't deal with him and Rachel at the same time, and pumpkin still goes in.

Against air - 6A isn't too good anymore, jC is excellent air to air. Lobelia's still get the job done.

Defense - Average health, below average primers, average CA, unfavorable hitbox.

Neutral - Still strong in this regard, but slower wind regen and low damage off her zoning weakens her here. She struggles against characters that can stop her from zoning freely.

B

Tsubaki

Average Damage - Low without charge. Can nick 3.5-4K with 1-2 charges.

Max Damage - Can get around 7000, but needs to use install super.

Pokes - 5B is excellent, 2C is probably the best anti-air in the game. Outside of these two moves, she's a bit lacking.

Escaping Pressure - Her DP's are bad :/. Counter assault is good since it covers good distance, definitely one of the better ones.

Mixup - Massive kara throw range, 22[d] unblockable and some tricks with tk 236x. High/low leaves much to be desired - although 3C works as an all right low, she doesn't do much damage off the high anyways.

Pressure - Strong in this regard. 5CD is +1, 5BD is even, 5A is good, 214C is safe (lots of startup, pretty much her dead spike).

Okizeme/Ukemi - Somewhat weak in this regard. If she knocks you away fullscreen, she gets to charge, but her approach is somewhat limited. In the corner she can keep pressure going thanks to the positioning on her knockdown.

Against ground - 5B is great. 236D is all right, but costs a charge. JCC is very good.

Against air - 2C is top class. JB is decent air to air, JA would be ok but it's angle is a bit weak.

Defense - Average health, average primers, above average counter assault, average hitbox.

Neutral - At best, Tsubaki can be described as a poor man's Ragna. She suffers from the same problems as he does (really low damage off far hitconfirm being the biggest one). She has good dash speed, and 5B and 2C are great moves, and she has glide throw, but if you can manuever around that, she's not very intimidating.

Tager

Average Damage - Hovers in the 2K-3K Range.

Max Damage - FC 2C can lead to 4.5K damage. Really his max practical damage is probably 720

Pokes - Shines in this regard. 5C is especially good, 5D is top class if they are magnetized.

Escaping Pressure - 360/720 is scary, backdash is something like 23f total, 21f invul, so pretty good here. Throw is huge and has 6f startup, so it's usable for some situational punishes. 2C trade gets a special mention here.

Mixup - Gadget RC is scary. Gadget isn't too bad. Has a good poke/throw game.

Pressure - Pressure is all right, but there are spots vulnerable to IB 5A. Some of these can be covered with 360 though.

Okizeme/Ukemi - Gadget ender is all right. Has good 720 setups that abuse certain stagger states and teching positions.

Against ground - 5C, jB, 5D are all good. Spaced 2D is pretty good.

Against air - 2A AA, 2C trade, jD are good. Collider is passable.

Defense - Top class health, top class primers, average CA, unfavorable hitbox. Vulnerable to instant overheads or having moves hit him crouching that would normally whiff.

Neutral - Destroyed. He's the least mobile character so characters run circles around him. Has to work pretty hard to catch someone blocking. His damage isn't too good off random hits either. Thankfully the pokes he does have are good, and if he magnetizes you, he's probably getting you next to him.

Edited February 7, 2011 by Lord Knight

[Lord Knight]

could you elaborate on how to control options since litchi is mentioned in your top class of option controller =/

*learning fundaments...

It depends on the matchup, but in matches were the opponent relies a lot on their midrange game, Litchi can choose to play staff or staffless (situationally) to help her approach, and on hit/counter hit gets much more damage than they do. These would include Jin (midrange CH damage can be like 3000, but Litchi can confirm for 3000-3500 and corner carry), Ragna (midrange damage is only 2000 or so), Tsubaki (lol).

Against characters with short range normals who need to get in, Litchi can zone them full screen by launching the staff, and keep them out midrange with her superior range when she's holding the staff. Makoto and Noel struggle against this.

Against long range characters/zoners, Litchi can use the staff to clash projectiles and make her approach safe. If they have some sort of item, thanks to the long range on her staff normals, she can hit them and then their item/assist back to back from a safe range. This isn't just Mu and Lambda, but also Carl, Arakune, and Hazama.

[Delrian]

Lambda

Mixup - Good. Has tricky setups with crescent feints. 4B is unblockable (!!!!!). Good at abusing TRM with her 2B.

Not a true unblockable.... it can be a really fast overhead with dash 4B (so the first hit whiffs, leaving no hitstop before the overhead). Not sure if you were referring to that or you thought it was actually unblockable.

[Lord Knight]

A joke for the netplayers, lol.

[Dacidbro]

I'd recommend adding Bang's 5B to his anti airs, it's one of his best.

Good list though, very detailed, can't really argue with any of it that I skimmed.

[advancedNoob]

Good read. Ragna's 5C isn't that good though, it's too range specific.

[toanenadiz]

Lambda

Neutral - Like Litchi, matchup knowledge is important. Ground swords are weaker this time, so being able to play a midrange game is crucial with her. Struggles with anyone who can easy clash/manuever around swords.

Isn't match-up knowledge important for every character? Is there a difference in how much match-up knowledge say a Jin or Carl needs vs how much a Lambda or Litchi needs?

[Rhiya]

Pressure - Strong in this regard. 5CD is +1, 5BD is even, 5A is good, 214C is safe (lots of startup, pretty much her dead spike).

Elaborate.

Tons.

Dusky ain't seeing it. Maybe I just play Tsu like ass (hey, it's an outright possibility), but her pressure is normally considered infamously bad (a conception helped by so many jp players using few blockstrings that aren't 5aaaaaa/2aaaaaa 5b 5b 22c or some variant, etc.). She also doesn't have the meter gain that Ragna does, so she doesn't get RC easily to cover the more unsafe parts of her mixup and pressure. CC helps a bit, but is often punishable if used predictably. Low return on pretty much any mixup (2b goes into maybe 1.7k without without spending charge or meter, 2.7k with 1 charge and 50 meter, 6A is an awful overhead and gives awful returns too, 6B gives okay returns but is pretty useless in pressure due to its awful range).

214C is pretty much useless. 7 more frames of startup than Dead Spike (fucking 40 frames). Sure, it gives +3, but you'd have to be blind. 214D, though, is 22 frame startup and gives +5 -- but costs charge, which is a frustratingly limited resource in so many matchups. I need charge for damage, and I like to try to keep one charge stocked for D DP (TEN FRAMES OF INVUL OMG).

Oh, and I think average damage with charge is more like 3k (since 5b starter is realistically what you'll get most of the time), not 3.5k.

Edited January 27, 2011 by Dusk Thanatos

[advancedNoob]

Tsubaki has good frame traps in her pressure, I believe that's what he means.

[FlyingVe]

Thank you for that, that was a great read and is definitely more modern than SJ's list from half a year ago.

My only edit (sorry for nitpicking), is that Mu's max damage is 7.2k, which comes from her fatals, and she can easily hit 6K with an explosion setup or good hit near the corner.

Note, the 7.2k is a standard punish for lots of moves.

Edited January 28, 2011 by FlyingVe

[Niko]

Carl

Pokes - 5C is excellent, it even beats Litchi's 5B[m]. This gets augmented by Nirvana helping him to control space.

Ever since they made the move slower and extended Carl's 5C hitbox in CS, this move trades more often than not. Just look at that hitbox. Am I missing something here?

[Rhiya]

Oh damn, I forgot to actually say thanks for the list.

Good read.

Tsubaki has good frame traps in her pressure, I believe that's what he means.

Where? 5B 5B?

>_>

There are probably others, but they're probably also stupid unsafe.

Edited January 27, 2011 by Dusk Thanatos

[advancedNoob]

Unsafe frame traps? wtf are you smoking?