huey253 Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 I find it really interesting that you have Rachel over Tsubaki, since general opinion is the reverse. Care to explain? Apparently, I need to play good Jin players = / well, rachel is okay as character, she just doesn't do damage. tsubaki on the other hand....
Lord Knight Posted January 12, 2011 Author Posted January 12, 2011 I find it really interesting that you have Rachel over Tsubaki, since general opinion is the reverse. Care to explain? Apparently, I need to play good Jin players = / Rachel is just lacking in damage. Although her zoning tools do have weaknesses (short pumpkin, lobelia's being knocked back, slower wind regen), her neutral game is still way stronger than Tsubaki's.
zeth07 Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 In line with some of that risk/reward talk: Out of curiosity, in your opinion, which character do you think gets to play the "safest"? As in the lowest risk with the highest reward "average?" with all things considered. And I'm not really talking about just damage, I'm talking in terms of winning, controlling the match, landing combos, doing blockstrings, damage included I guess.
huey253 Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 In line with some of that risk/reward talk: Out of curiosity, in your opinion, which character do you think gets to play the "safest"? As in the lowest risk with the highest reward "average?" with all things considered. And I'm not really talking about just damage, I'm talking in terms of winning, controlling the match, landing combos, doing blockstrings, damage included I guess. taokaka
XDest Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 j.D~B is way too goddamn safe+fast+rewarding in CS1. It almost feels like cheating. And the third jump makes trying to anti-air her a lot more dangerous. And her risk-reward is really out there in general, almost nothing she does goes under 3.5k ever. And that she averages 4.2k off 5B, 5k off CH drives, and 7k off 6C, all meterless. And of course AB2 provides +2k off anything taunt loop related with 20-30 heat. And double air dashing makes certain air throw setups (for 4.6k meterless) really good. And her counter assault is way too good, if you do it during an opponent's high recovery move, you're getting a free 3.5-4k at least, that can kill somebody since it's evade-type. CS1 Taokaka is fucked up.
huey253 Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 what this guy says ^^ tell me how many times you have punished jD-B its actually unpunishable with certain characters like bang and rachel(normals will wiff)
Lord Knight Posted January 13, 2011 Author Posted January 13, 2011 In line with some of that risk/reward talk: Out of curiosity, in your opinion, which character do you think gets to play the "safest"? As in the lowest risk with the highest reward "average?" with all things considered. And I'm not really talking about just damage, I'm talking in terms of winning, controlling the match, landing combos, doing blockstrings, damage included I guess. Litchi, Tao, Bang, Valk, Arakune Litchi, probably the safest character.
SolheartStud Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 How do you feel about Tager in this game? Do you think between his buffs and the overall system changes in this game he can compete with most of the cast now?
Lord Knight Posted January 13, 2011 Author Posted January 13, 2011 They don't play that, though. They're from street fighter. xD On topic: LK, have you seen the "Platinum Basics" Video? What do you think? How do you think she'll fare in the meta? I hate Platinum's character design, but she has way too many tricks. Probably going to play her as an alt. How do you feel about Tager in this game? Do you think between his buffs and the overall system changes in this game he can compete with most of the cast now? This game is too anime. Even with all the tools a grappler could ever hope for (pulling them in, fullscreen projectile), it's still not good enough to compete with some of the characters. A character like Tager will always have bad matchups (Arakune, Mu etc).
WolfCrimson Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 ^Not even with his brand-new 421D > 720C? Tager seems to be good now, for starters more JP players pick him. Sure he's gonna have bad-matchups but he should have good matchups too. Plus 421D > 720 beats out anything any other grappler could have.
Lord Knight Posted January 13, 2011 Author Posted January 13, 2011 Everyone picks Tager, he's an easy char that gets easy damage. Having a new trick doesn't make up for lack of mobility, being the most vulnerable to instant overheads and fuzzy guards, and getting zoned like crazy.
DubiousCurvLoop Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 LK, a lot of Noel's jokingly say (but sometimes not) to just pick Bang, Litchi, or Hakumen when referring to the Litchi vs Noel match-up. In only a handful of matches I see, Noel manages to come out on top. Realistically, do you think the match-up is that bad for Noel in CS? What have you experienced, seen, etc. from Noel's tool-set that gives or would give Litchi the most trouble? Also, there are quite a few people who say that Noel isn't a tourney-viable character in CS. What are your thoughts on that? If you believe she isn't, what is she lacking in fundamentally that make you feel that way? If you believe that she is, do you think it's just that her underrepresentation in tournaments make people believe the otherwise, or is it just that we Noel's in general are lacking in some key fundamental(s) that would put us on par with everyone else?
tofurr Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 If you were able to gauge anything from the few matches we did play last night, would you be able to give me any pointers? I know the connection wasn't great or anything so it's understandable if you weren't able to or bothered to even remember them. ._.
Fugu Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 (edited) In this thread you frequently segment players (differentiating between "good" and "great", etc.) into different skill categories; how does one move from one category to another? It's one thing to state a list of a criteria that makes a certain level of player that level, but what I'm looking for is how a player can tangibly improve their mode of reasoning when playing the game. It is one thing to memorize plays and situations, and it's another to actually think about when to do them and then actually implementing these tactics is a whole other level of difficulty. Once you learn what's possible, how do you learn when to do it? Or, better yet, once you learn how to think on multiple levels, how do you develop a scrutinizing process to determine what level to go with in the heat of a match? EDIT: I'm a Litchi player in case that wasn't obvious, so don't hesitate to provide Litchi-specific examples. Edited January 13, 2011 by Fugu
FlyingVe Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 For the record, that was me (not-pro) that did that, not LK(pro)... Still, it's a good question.
Aginor Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 LK, a lot of Noel's jokingly say (but sometimes not) to just pick Bang, Litchi, or Hakumen when referring to the Litchi vs Noel match-up. In only a handful of matches I see, Noel manages to come out on top. Realistically, do you think the match-up is that bad for Noel in CS? What have you experienced, seen, etc. from Noel's tool-set that gives or would give Litchi the most trouble? Also, there are quite a few people who say that Noel isn't a tourney-viable character in CS. What are your thoughts on that? If you believe she isn't, what is she lacking in fundamentally that make you feel that way? If you believe that she is, do you think it's just that her underrepresentation in tournaments make people believe the otherwise, or is it just that we Noel's in general are lacking in some key fundamental(s) that would put us on par with everyone else? Coming from a competitive offline Noel player, that match up is bad. Obviously, Noel has to work A LOT harder than Litchi because all Noel really has is damage. Litchi is also one of the hardest to Haida loop due to her aerial hitbox not being that wide. That being said, you have to stick with more general combos and you probably want to save 50 meter for a dead angle/counter assault in case litchi gets you into the corner gets oki from kokushi or daisharin. The moves that would give Litchi the most trouble imo are 2d, 5d, 5a, and 2b. Can't really think of many others because Noel's normals do not have very good hitboxes. 3c might give Litchi trouble due to the low profile but you might want 50 meter to RC it just in case it gets blocked. Otherwise, the match goes downhill quite fast. I think she is tourney-viable but with how it is in CS1, it's just so hard to consistently win with her which is why not many tourney Noel players place consistently or even do well consistently. All she is in CS1 is pretty much gimmicks and how many times will your opponent fall for it. It's not the underrepresentation that make people believe that she isn't tourney-viable. She really is lacking key things that would put her on par with other characters. As I've said, in CS1, Noel is pretty much all gimmicks with her drives. ASW made Noel players play that way since her normals aren't as great. Her pressure is only ok, her ground overhead mix up is pretty bad unless you use the j.d cancel into d.6b trick, and no true reversal. So if you think about it, she has 4 primers so you'd think she'd have to rushdown to win since she can't block much. In reality, it's more like wait for the opponent to make a mistake and then capitalize with 5d and 2d. Well....key thing that would put Noel on par with everybody else would be buffed normals and reduced damage, which ASW pretty much did except the damage part.
rei-Scarred Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 S: Litchi = Tao S-: Bang = Valk A+: Arakune = Makoto, Carl A: Hakumen, Hazama, Jin, Ragna, Mu=Lambda B+: Noel, Rachel B: Tsubaki, Tager Wow I agree with this o_o. Closer than team stickbug imo
advancedNoob Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 rei-Scarred, yeah, it's a very well put tier list. Even Bang, he is GOD, but not Litchi GOD.
rei-Scarred Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 Litchi wears the pants in that relationship, so to speak
Nini Heart Posted January 14, 2011 Posted January 14, 2011 In regards to what? CS1 or CS2? In CS1, I personally feel the characters are split like this: S: Litchi = Tao S-: Bang = Valk A+: Arakune = Makoto, Carl A: Hakumen, Hazama, Jin, Ragna, Mu=Lambda B+: Noel, Rachel B: Tsubaki, Tager Best fucken list I've seen so far. Shit should be stickied.
Sophisticat Posted January 14, 2011 Posted January 14, 2011 LK, could you please evaluate this Litchi: Winner's Finals. Bad Q. Bear with it. Grand Finals Better Q, but it's a blowout... I've been wondering how he fares in the eyes of the master. He's the local powerhouse. :] Best fucken list I've seen so far. Shit should be stickied. So you agree that Makoto isn't low tier anymore? :P
OmniSScythe Posted January 14, 2011 Posted January 14, 2011 Makoto was low? I though that was people not knowing the match up. :P
Nini Heart Posted January 14, 2011 Posted January 14, 2011 (edited) @Sophis: I think that should go in the Litchi critique thread no? And according to St1ckbug tier list I can claim i'm low tier. MTL option select: I'm playing low tier My Makoto's low tier anyways >.> Edited January 14, 2011 by Nini Heart
Lord Knight Posted January 14, 2011 Author Posted January 14, 2011 LK, a lot of Noel's jokingly say (but sometimes not) to just pick Bang, Litchi, or Hakumen when referring to the Litchi vs Noel match-up. In only a handful of matches I see, Noel manages to come out on top. Realistically, do you think the match-up is that bad for Noel in CS? What have you experienced, seen, etc. from Noel's tool-set that gives or would give Litchi the most trouble? Also, there are quite a few people who say that Noel isn't a tourney-viable character in CS. What are your thoughts on that? If you believe she isn't, what is she lacking in fundamentally that make you feel that way? If you believe that she is, do you think it's just that her underrepresentation in tournaments make people believe the otherwise, or is it just that we Noel's in general are lacking in some key fundamental(s) that would put us on par with everyone else? Litchi even beat Noel in CT, haha. I think it's a bad matchup. All the tools Litchi used to win all got buffed in CS, and she has even more tools on top of that. You have to seriously outplay the Litchi player/be better than them to win. First, I think the Noel should gauge how the Litchi deals with neutral, pressure and defense. People seem to be really bad against D, lol. However, if the Litchi knows what normals to use (5A AA, 5C, 6D, 3C against drives, 2C against 2D), it gets really uphill - all those will lead to full combo. I think Noel is definitely tourney viable - but Noel can't win tournies (unless that's what people mean by tourney viable). First off she lacks a poke that consistently leads to good damage (most of Litchi's moves, Bang's 5B, etc) and her bad matchups are just way too lopsided. If she had a way to force crouch (outside of 6B, which is overhead anyway), that'd be good. She doesn't have enough offensive options and drive is still gimmicky at best. There's only so much a player can do with limited options. If you were able to gauge anything from the few matches we did play last night, would you be able to give me any pointers? I know the connection wasn't great or anything so it's understandable if you weren't able to or bothered to even remember them. ._. Can't really remember, whoops. Next time you should try recording matches, then reviewing them - it's really helpful. In this thread you frequently segment players (differentiating between "good" and "great", etc.) into different skill categories; how does one move from one category to another? It's one thing to state a list of a criteria that makes a certain level of player that level, but what I'm looking for is how a player can tangibly improve their mode of reasoning when playing the game. It is one thing to memorize plays and situations, and it's another to actually think about when to do them and then actually implementing these tactics is a whole other level of difficulty. Once you learn what's possible, how do you learn when to do it? Or, better yet, once you learn how to think on multiple levels, how do you develop a scrutinizing process to determine what level to go with in the heat of a match? EDIT: I'm a Litchi player in case that wasn't obvious, so don't hesitate to provide Litchi-specific examples. Great question. "Good" and "great" are both subjective evaluations of skill, right? Really, I think it's just about people's standards - actually defining criteria (ie, he can hit X combo, block such and such, etc) wont work for something with that much grey area. I can't speak for everyone, but I feel that reflection after matches really helps in developing your play. Recording matches is a great way to evaluate your progress and see what you need to work on. The thing is, as long as a player actually reflects on the game, outside of the game, they should develop (as long as they can find answers). Memorizing plays/situations doesn't really mean much, it's recognizing where these situations occur and reacting accordingly. Of course, it's a lot easier if you've already developed matchup strategy. As far as thinking on different levels, I can't speak for other people, but I personally can differentiate someone's relative skill level somewhat easily. When I'm dealing with matchup strategy, the first thing I like to cover is the things everyone will do (Hazama's still doing 3C > 214DA/C, midscreen you can just backstep/jump and corner you can poke out really easily, it's so telegraphed). Better players tend to show you they are better - by default they tend to use stronger tactics (Ragna's using 2A > 2C blockstring, Hakumen's using dash 2B > purple throw for TRM, etc). In the end, you don't want to think too hard about that while your playing, because it should just be obvious - just look at the screen lol.
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